Be Careful Where You Say The Name "Jesus" - Page 2

melon · 08-30-2001, 06:40 PM

Allow me to clarify:

I am not opposed to foreign aid workers. I am opposed to those who blatantly pose as foreign aid workers--and yes, they do actually give aid--but their primary motive is religious conversion. This is exactly why I'm opposed to Bush's 'faith-based' proposal!! Last I heard, lying was a sin too.

Melon

------------------
�Confused by thoughts, we experience duality in life. Unencumbered by ideas, the enlightened see the one reality.� - Hui-neng (638-713)

melon · 08-30-2001, 06:44 PM

And I do hate the Taliban. They are poor excuses for Muslims. They may have the force and the loud voice to say they are 'right,' but Islam, for well over 1000 years, preached tolerance of those of other religions. Yes, it was the Muslims who protected the Jews in Palestine before, during, and after the Crusades, while the Christians were busy killing them. It's a real big shame that things had to change, but that seems to be the trend amongst the 'religious' nowadays--they have incredibly short collective memories.

Melon

------------------
�Confused by thoughts, we experience duality in life. Unencumbered by ideas, the enlightened see the one reality.� - Hui-neng (638-713)

melon · 08-30-2001, 06:50 PM

Finally, foreign aid workers will do nothing to rid the Taliban. The only way that will happen is by military force. If the Taliban were running a European nation, NATO would have already slaughtered them. Of course, it is more than notorious that the U.S. doesn't get involved very often in non-Caucasian countries.

And I do apologize for sounding harsh. I'm having issues with organized religion lately. It's hard being both religious and an intellectual, not to mention another thing a few of you know about. Forgive me if you have been offended.

*sigh*

Melon

------------------
�Confused by thoughts, we experience duality in life. Unencumbered by ideas, the enlightened see the one reality.� - Hui-neng (638-713)

melon · 08-30-2001, 06:52 PM

BTW, Iran is considered 'liberal' amongst the Muslim world. I do suggest procuring a National Geographic feature on Iran. It shouldn't be too hard to find, as it was only published in the last year or two. Basically, there is far more to it than the Western negative press.

Melon

------------------
�Confused by thoughts, we experience duality in life. Unencumbered by ideas, the enlightened see the one reality.� - Hui-neng (638-713)

Trash Can · 08-30-2001, 07:32 PM

Wow, this has turned into a hot debate.
Perhaps I should clear up some of my earlier comments.
I am saying that these good people were fully aware of the dangers they would face, and they decided to risk all that for God anyway!
They feel so strong about their mission and the Truth, as they see it, that they walked in as lambs into a wolf's den, to HELP and serve fellow human beings. Damn the consequences!
My God, I admire that!
Bless these poor souls! ("Poor"? Hmmm... They may in fact be very "rich", and I dont mean money-wise).
Civil disobedience for human dignity and justice IS a very necessary practice. It is also a very dangerous practice. One must be willing to stand up for what they
believe and "suffer the consequences" ; for the change that is very necessary.

Jesus Christ did it. And He died for it. BUT look what He brought to the world by it! http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm

Mahatma Ghandi did it. And he died for it. And look what he brought. http://www.mahatma.org.in/

Dr. Martin Luther King did it. And he died for it. And look what he brought. http://www.wakeamerica.com/past/spee...ng_082863.html

These men DID "turn the other cheek". Of course it does not mean to "turn a blind eye". It means to "expose" the aggressor. It means to NOT give the power to the aggressor by retaliating.

My God, think about it. All except one of the apostles was murdered because of what they taught; because of what they believed.
They knew of the dangers, but they also knew about "the big picture".

So do these "captives" in Afganistan.

Jesus of Nazareth had something to say about such folks at the very end of the Beautitudes. http://www.preciousmomentscommunity....eatitudes.html

Peace

U2Bama · 08-30-2001, 08:14 PM

Trash Can:

I understand your perspective now that you have explaine it. Thanks.

Melon:

Granted, Iran has made some "reforms" since the post-Ayatollah Komeini regime, but even as recently as 1996, they jailed 2 Christian priests when it was discovered that they converted after being born into Muslim families. After diplomatic pressure (which was influenced in no small part by Amnesty International and several religious groups), they were released and tasted freedom. They disappeared and were murdered a few days later, executed by fundamentalists for the crime of apostacy, which they had earlier been jailed for.

~U2Alabama

foray · 08-31-2001, 02:01 AM

foray · 08-31-2001, 02:18 AM

Another thing,

Quote:

Originally posted by melon:
Allow me to clarify:
I am opposed to those who blatantly pose as foreign aid workers--and yes, they do actually give aid--but their primary motive is religious conversion

I don't understand why you oppose evangelism when you're a Christian?

foray

[This message has been edited by foray (edited 08-31-2001).]

Christy Moore · 08-31-2001, 03:34 AM

oops...
------------------
bonoman

Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono

[This message has been edited by Christy Moore (edited 08-31-2001).]

]{arao]{e · 08-31-2001, 07:27 AM

I would like to know more about how the Taliban found out about the activity of the people being prosecuted.

They must not have been very descreet?

]{arao]{e · 08-31-2001, 07:29 AM

I would like to know more about how the Taliban found out about the activity of the people being prosecuted.

They must not have been very descreet?

U2Bama · 08-31-2001, 09:48 AM

That's a good question, ]{arao]{e. But, not having a very good record on public relations/media affairs, the Taliban has not released any details of the alleged acts; I don't know if they have even discussed this with the American/Australian/German envoys trying to negotiate the situation. We may never know.

~U2Alabama

sulawesigirl4 · 08-31-2001, 10:12 AM

Just a thought on the issue at hand...I wonder if many of you are aware of the status of foreigners in a strict Muslim country. You are automatically suspect merely on the basis of your difference. To a zealous and fundamentalist government a Christian aid organization would be a threat, and I'm not surprised at all to see these kinds of charges levelled.

One difficulty in discerning what actually happened is knowing what defines proselytizing? If you are of a different faith can you not practice that faith while in another country? If someone asks you why you are different than they are you allowed to say so? Or is that pushing your religion on them? Where does one draw the line? It's an intricate tightrope act, and as Bama said...we may never know. But from personal experience, I would definitely take the claims of "proselytizing" with a huge grain of salt.

-sula

80sU2isBest · 08-31-2001, 11:19 AM

Did you know that in Communist China, it is against the law for any kind of teacher to share the gospel unless they are asked specifically about the gospel, in which case they are bound under law to tell everything they know. Isn't that interesting?

Spiral_Staircase · 08-31-2001, 11:50 AM

I wish I had been around yesterday afternoon to respond to sula's first post, but I'll respond now anyway....

Preach it Sula-girl!! You got me all fired up!! Thanks.

sulawesigirl4 · 08-31-2001, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
I wish I had been around yesterday afternoon to respond to sula's first post, but I'll respond now anyway....

Preach it Sula-girl!! You got me all fired up!! Thanks.

lol, spiral. You STILL have to email me! Hurry up, I'm leaving the Cities next week!!!

-sula

radiodivision · 08-31-2001, 11:15 PM

The Taliban: Another repressive regime brought to you by the CIA.

Trash Can · 09-01-2001, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by radiodivision:
The Taliban: Another repressive regime brought to you by the CIA.

"Great Manuel Noriega!!"... Why does this NOT surprise me!?

U2Bama · 09-02-2001, 11:47 PM

The creation and expansion of the Taliban is much less due to the CIA than some believe; in fact, it is born more of anti-Western cultural identity and misguided fundamentalism.

But I can see where it would be convenient to blame the Taliban on the U.S. and the C.I.A. I've even heard people blame tornadoes and hurricanes on the U.S. and the C.I.A., so why not!

~U2Alabama

radiodivision · 09-03-2001, 01:28 AM

U2Bama,

No one is solely blaming the CIA for the rise of the Taliban. Of course the situation is more complex than that. But having said that, it is a fact (and this comes from official de-classified documents) that the CIA aided the rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan (with the aid of Pakistani corrupt officials and other thugs during the 80s war vs. Russia and continuing through the 90s) by providing aid through the opium and heroin trade in the region (just like they've helped Manuel Noriega in Panama, the Contras in Nicaragua, and several others in the region). As you may or may not know, this is nothing new for the CIA. Even if the people it deals with are known drug traffickers, Nazi war criminals, etc., as long as the ends justify the means, the CIA will continue to do it. Don't take my word for it though. Research it. Look it up.

08-30-2001, 06:40 PM	#21
melon ONE love, blood, life Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Ásgarðr Posts: 11,789 Local Time: 05:50 PM	Allow me to clarify: I am not opposed to foreign aid workers. I am opposed to those who blatantly pose as foreign aid workers--and yes, they do actually give aid--but their primary motive is religious conversion. *This is exactly why I'm opposed to Bush's 'faith-based' proposal!!* Last I heard, lying was a sin too. Melon ------------------ �Confused by thoughts, we experience duality in life. Unencumbered by ideas, the enlightened see the one reality.� - Hui-neng (638-713) __________________

08-30-2001, 06:44 PM	#22
melon ONE love, blood, life Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Ásgarðr Posts: 11,789 Local Time: 05:50 PM	And I do hate the Taliban. They are poor excuses for Muslims. They may have the force and the loud voice to say they are 'right,' but Islam, for well over 1000 years, preached tolerance of those of other religions. Yes, it was the Muslims who protected the Jews in Palestine before, during, and after the Crusades, while the Christians were busy killing them. It's a real big shame that things had to change, but that seems to be the trend amongst the 'religious' nowadays--they have incredibly short collective memories. Melon ------------------ �Confused by thoughts, we experience duality in life. Unencumbered by ideas, the enlightened see the one reality.� - Hui-neng (638-713) __________________

09-03-2001, 01:28 AM	#40
radiodivision The Fly Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Austin, TX USA Posts: 54 Local Time: 09:50 PM	U2Bama, No one is solely blaming the CIA for the rise of the Taliban. Of course the situation is more complex than that. But having said that, it is a fact (and this comes from official de-classified documents) that the CIA aided the rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan (with the aid of Pakistani corrupt officials and other thugs during the 80s war vs. Russia and continuing through the 90s) by providing aid through the opium and heroin trade in the region (just like they've helped Manuel Noriega in Panama, the Contras in Nicaragua, and several others in the region). As you may or may not know, this is nothing new for the CIA. Even if the people it deals with are known drug traffickers, Nazi war criminals, etc., as long as the ends justify the means, the CIA will continue to do it. Don't take my word for it though. Research it. Look it up. __________________

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08-30-2001, 06:50 PM	#23
melon ONE love, blood, life Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Ásgarðr Posts: 11,789 Local Time: 05:50 PM	Finally, foreign aid workers will do nothing to rid the Taliban. The only way that will happen is by military force. If the Taliban were running a European nation, NATO would have already slaughtered them. Of course, it is more than notorious that the U.S. doesn't get involved very often in non-Caucasian countries. And I do apologize for sounding harsh. I'm having issues with organized religion lately. It's hard being both religious and an intellectual, not to mention another thing a few of you know about. Forgive me if you have been offended. sigh Melon ------------------ �Confused by thoughts, we experience duality in life. Unencumbered by ideas, the enlightened see the one reality.� - Hui-neng (638-713)

08-30-2001, 06:52 PM	#24
melon ONE love, blood, life Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Ásgarðr Posts: 11,789 Local Time: 05:50 PM	BTW, Iran is considered 'liberal' amongst the Muslim world. I do suggest procuring a National Geographic feature on Iran. It shouldn't be too hard to find, as it was only published in the last year or two. Basically, there is far more to it than the Western negative press. Melon ------------------ �Confused by thoughts, we experience duality in life. Unencumbered by ideas, the enlightened see the one reality.� - Hui-neng (638-713)

08-30-2001, 07:32 PM	#25
Trash Can Acrobat Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 399 Local Time: 09:50 PM	Wow, this has turned into a hot debate. Perhaps I should clear up some of my earlier comments. I am saying that these good people were fully aware of the dangers they would face, and they decided to risk all that for God anyway! They feel so strong about their mission and the Truth, as they see it, that they walked in as lambs into a wolf's den, to HELP and serve fellow human beings. Damn the consequences! My God, I admire that! Bless these poor souls! ("Poor"? Hmmm... They may in fact be very "rich", and I dont mean money-wise). Civil disobedience for human dignity and justice IS a very necessary practice. It is also a very dangerous practice. One must be willing to stand up for what they believe and "suffer the consequences" ; for the change that is very necessary. Jesus Christ did it. And He died for it. BUT look what He brought to the world by it! http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm Mahatma Ghandi did it. And he died for it. And look what he brought. http://www.mahatma.org.in/ Dr. Martin Luther King did it. And he died for it. And look what he brought. http://www.wakeamerica.com/past/spee...ng_082863.html These men DID "turn the other cheek". Of course it does not mean to "turn a blind eye". It means to "expose" the aggressor. It means to NOT give the power to the aggressor by retaliating. My God, think about it. All except one of the apostles was murdered because of what they taught; because of what they believed. They knew of the dangers, but they also knew about "the big picture". So do these "captives" in Afganistan. Jesus of Nazareth had something to say about such folks at the very end of the Beautitudes. http://www.preciousmomentscommunity....eatitudes.html Peace

08-30-2001, 08:14 PM	#26
U2Bama Rock n' Roll Doggie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Gulf Coast State of Mine Posts: 3,405 Local Time: 04:50 PM	Trash Can: I understand your perspective now that you have explaine it. Thanks. Melon: Granted, Iran has made some "reforms" since the post-Ayatollah Komeini regime, but even as recently as 1996, they jailed 2 Christian priests when it was discovered that they converted after being born into Muslim families. After diplomatic pressure (which was influenced in no small part by Amnesty International and several religious groups), they were released and tasted freedom. They disappeared and were murdered a few days later, executed by fundamentalists for the crime of apostacy, which they had earlier been jailed for. ~U2Alabama

08-31-2001, 02:01 AM	#27
foray Rock n' Roll Doggie Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: full of sound and fury Posts: 3,386 Local Time: 10:50 AM

08-31-2001, 03:34 AM	#29
Christy Moore Babyface Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: canada Posts: 13 Local Time: 09:50 PM	oops... ------------------ bonoman Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice." "we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono [This message has been edited by Christy Moore (edited 08-31-2001).]

08-31-2001, 07:27 AM	#30
]{arao]{e The Fly Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: SouthWest U.S.A Posts: 61 Local Time: 09:50 PM	I would like to know more about how the Taliban found out about the activity of the people being prosecuted. They must not have been very descreet?

08-31-2001, 07:29 AM	#31
]{arao]{e The Fly Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: SouthWest U.S.A Posts: 61 Local Time: 09:50 PM	I would like to know more about how the Taliban found out about the activity of the people being prosecuted. They must not have been very descreet?

08-31-2001, 09:48 AM	#32
U2Bama Rock n' Roll Doggie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Gulf Coast State of Mine Posts: 3,405 Local Time: 04:50 PM	That's a good question, ]{arao]{e. But, not having a very good record on public relations/media affairs, the Taliban has not released any details of the alleged acts; I don't know if they have even discussed this with the American/Australian/German envoys trying to negotiate the situation. We may never know. ~U2Alabama

08-31-2001, 10:12 AM	#33
sulawesigirl4 Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,415 Local Time: 04:50 PM	Just a thought on the issue at hand...I wonder if many of you are aware of the status of foreigners in a strict Muslim country. You are automatically suspect merely on the basis of your difference. To a zealous and fundamentalist government a Christian aid organization would be a threat, and I'm not surprised at all to see these kinds of charges levelled. One difficulty in discerning what actually happened is knowing what defines proselytizing? If you are of a different faith can you not practice that faith while in another country? If someone asks you why you are different than they are you allowed to say so? Or is that pushing your religion on them? Where does one draw the line? It's an intricate tightrope act, and as Bama said...we may never know. But from personal experience, I would definitely take the claims of "proselytizing" with a huge grain of salt. -sula

08-31-2001, 11:19 AM	#34
80sU2isBest Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 4,970 Local Time: 04:50 PM	Did you know that in Communist China, it is against the law for any kind of teacher to share the gospel unless they are asked specifically about the gospel, in which case they are bound under law to tell everything they know. Isn't that interesting?

08-31-2001, 11:50 AM	#35
Spiral_Staircase War Child Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN, USA Posts: 684 Local Time: 03:50 PM	I wish I had been around yesterday afternoon to respond to sula's first post, but I'll respond now anyway.... Preach it Sula-girl!! You got me all fired up!! Thanks.

08-31-2001, 11:15 PM	#37
radiodivision The Fly Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Austin, TX USA Posts: 54 Local Time: 09:50 PM	The Taliban: Another repressive regime brought to you by the CIA.

09-02-2001, 11:47 PM	#39
U2Bama Rock n' Roll Doggie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Gulf Coast State of Mine Posts: 3,405 Local Time: 04:50 PM	The creation and expansion of the Taliban is much less due to the CIA than some believe; in fact, it is born more of anti-Western cultural identity and misguided fundamentalism. But I can see where it would be convenient to blame the Taliban on the U.S. and the C.I.A. I've even heard people blame tornadoes and hurricanes on the U.S. and the C.I.A., so why not! ~U2Alabama