"Badgeman" - assassin in the Grassy Knoll

[Harry Vest]

Part 1 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezuGskOauU
Part 2 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkw2mQr-W84&feature=related

I tested these links and it seems they do not take you directly to the subject. Another way of getting there is going to youtube and putting "Grassy Knoll" in the search engine. The first two "video's" that pop up should be parts 1 & 2. Please pay close attention to the man who was filming at the Grassy Knoll that day. He is seen thumbing through the photographic evidence near the end of part 2. The fear that takes ahold of him at the end is as real as it gets. To me this is absolute proof that there was indeed a conspiracy to assasinate JFK. In my heart of hearts I always knew there was but this just helps make the case that much clearer. Even for those doubters out there I'd love you to watch these two segments and try to convince me these men (and women) are lying.

P.S. Apparently Part 2 does indeed work but for some reason Part 1 doesn't???? Sorry...just push in "Grassy Knoll" and it should take you there.

 

[financeguy]

secret service standdown?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY02Qkuc_f8

1:42

 

[financeguy]

Irish authorities were made aware of three death threats against JFK during his June 1963 visit to Ireland.

This information was only made public in 2006. See the following:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20061229/ai_n17092126

The threats included a warning that a sniper with a rifle would take up position on a rooftop overlooking the president's route from the Dublin airport.

^Sounds remarkably similar to the manner in which JFK was actually killed.


There was a specific telephoned threat made from a public phonebox on Dame Street either during or shortly before JFK's visit. Police had a trace on it but arrived too late to arrest the caller.

THIS FACT WAS ONLY PUBLISHED FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 2006 (by the Irish Times).

So, specific threats made just five months before he was actually assassinated, one of which somewhat matches the manner in which he ACTUALLY WAS ASSASSINATED.

 

[diamond]

interesting.

<>

 

[DaveC]

^Sounds remarkably similar to the manner in which JFK was actually killed.

Someone on top of a building with a rifle is a pretty common way to assassinate someone in a car. This doesn't prove anything.

There was a specific telephoned threat made from a public phonebox on Dame Street either during or shortly before JFK's visit. Police had a trace on it but arrived too late to arrest the caller.

THIS FACT WAS ONLY PUBLISHED FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 2006 (by the Irish Times).

So, specific threats made just five months before he was actually assassinated, one of which somewhat matches the manner in which he ACTUALLY WAS ASSASSINATED.

So what if it was released in '06? Like I said, it proves absolutely nothing at all.

I used to believe there was a conspiracy, but watching an episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit! convinced me otherwise. They managed to refute every single point that the conspiracy theorists come up with using easily-reproduced experiments. If I can find a link, I'll post it. That absolutely sold me that there was only Lee Harvey Oswald with a gun in the Book Depository.

I'm watching Part I right now anyways. Will give my thoughts after I see the whole thing.

 

[phanan]

I've always believed that there has been a conspiracy. I will have to check this out.

I'm sure Dreadsox will be showing up soon.

 

[DaveC]

Buddy lost me at "The medical evidence as it exists now does not indicate a shot from the front, but we do have to understand that if Badge Man was firing, and if it was Badge Man's shot that struck the President in the head, that means that the medical evidence has been altered, and there you've got conspiracy existing within the United States government."

This is a huge logic leap, and proves to me that buddy is looking for proof of a conspiracy (looking for evidence to back up a conclusion he has already made), not objectively looking for the answers to whether or not there was a gunman behind the fence. It completely undermines his credibility.

As for the photo itself, I'm not convinced in the least. I could look at any given cloud and think it looks like a person (or a duck, or Europe - anything). An extremely blurry shot from far away is pretty poor evidence to base an entire theory upon. This to me is no more than the equivalent of a Rorschach test.

Also to consider, from Wikipedia's "Badge Man" page:

Other researchers have claimed that the "Badge Man" image is the sun-reflected outline of a soda pop bottle sitting atop the cement retaining wall. Marilyn Sitzman, who was standing a few yards from the retaining wall, saw a young black couple eating lunch on a bench behind that wall, and heard a soda bottle crash just after the motorcade passed by. Photos and films immediately afterwards do show a bottle sitting atop the retaining wall.

All in all, I'm not convinced. Besides, if there really was a conspiracy involving the Dallas Police/the FBI/the CIA/the Mafia/Cuba/anti-Castroites/Smurfs/whoever, wouldn't someone involved, anyone, in such large groups have said something in 45 years? There's no way with all the investigation into this that if a conspiracy truly did exist, not a single person who was in on it would be found or come forward. It's virtually impossible to keep such a large number of people completely quiet for such a long time.

Anyways, that's all for now. But I am quite interested to hear what dreadsox has to say about this, he usually has some great thoughts on the JFK assassination.

ETA: Here's a link to the Penn & Teller Bullshit! episode that refutes the conspiracy theory, as well as a few others (hopefully this link works):http://www.tv-links.cc/redir4.php?l...9dmlkcy5mdWxsc2NyZWVuJnZpZGVvaWQ9MTc5Nzg0MjY=

 

[Harry Vest]

Buddy lost me at "The medical evidence as it exists now does not indicate a shot from the front, but we do have to understand that if Badge Man was firing, and if it was Badge Man's shot that struck the President in the head, that means that the medical evidence has been altered, and there you've got conspiracy existing within the United States government."

This is a huge logic leap, and proves to me that buddy is looking for proof of a conspiracy (looking for evidence to back up a conclusion he has already made), not objectively looking for the answers to whether or not there was a gunman behind the fence. It completely undermines his credibility.

As for the photo itself, I'm not convinced in the least. I could look at any given cloud and think it looks like a person (or a duck, or Europe - anything). An extremely blurry shot from far away is pretty poor evidence to base an entire theory upon. This to me is no more than the equivalent of a Rorschach test.

Also to consider, from Wikipedia's "Badge Man" page:


All in all, I'm not convinced. Besides, if there really was a conspiracy involving the Dallas Police/the FBI/the CIA/the Mafia/Cuba/anti-Castroites/Smurfs/whoever, wouldn't someone involved, anyone, in such large groups have said something in 45 years? There's no way with all the investigation into this that if a conspiracy truly did exist, not a single person who was in on it would be found or come forward. It's virtually impossible to keep such a large number of people completely quiet for such a long time.

Anyways, that's all for now. But I am quite interested to hear what dreadsox has to say about this, he usually has some great thoughts on the JFK assassination.

ETA: Here's a link to the Penn & Teller Bullshit! episode that refutes the conspiracy theory, as well as a few others (hopefully this link works):http://www.tv-links.cc/redir4.php?l...9dmlkcy5mdWxsc2NyZWVuJnZpZGVvaWQ9MTc5Nzg0MjY=

Penn and Teller???
Since when did those two clowns become authorities on the JFK assasination????
Anyways, you failed to mention the guy at the end of Part 2 - he saw a cop and a railroad guy in the grassy knoll. He's simply not lying. You can tell from his reaction while looking at the photo's that he's truly scared. As far as no one coming forth how about E. Howard Hunt's deathbed confession...
http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=126&a=1565

 

[DaveC]

Penn and Teller???
Since when did those two clowns become authorities on the JFK assasination????

Did you even bother to click the link before you immediately dismissed it?

Anyways, you failed to mention the guy at the end of Part 2 - he saw a cop and a railroad guy in the grassy knoll. He's simply not lying. You can tell from his reaction while looking at the photo's that he's truly scared.

The guy didn't even mention the "railroad guy" before he saw the photo, then all of a sudden he remembers.

I prefer to trust scientific evidence over the memory of an old man 25 years after the fact.

As far as no one coming forth how about E. Howard Hunt's deathbed confession...
http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=126&a=1565

I have a Rolling Stone magazine with a 12-page feature about E. Howard Hunt's confession, that (for some reason) I haven't read. I will read it, and your link, tonight and let you know what I think.

But for the record, E. Howard Hunt doesn't hold a lot of credibility with me as it is, being an apologist for Guatemala '53 and planning Watergate.

We shall see.

 

[Dreadsox]

I've always believed that there has been a conspiracy. I will have to check this out.

I'm sure Dreadsox will be showing up soon.

Hello:O)


I do not believe there was anyone in the grassy knoll.

SHOCKER:O)

The back brace kennedy wore & the forward motion of the vehicle, combined with the EXPLOSION of his skull shattering all contribute to the illusion that he was shot from the side.

The number of witnesses thinking the shot came from the knoll is miniscule compared to the number of witnesses who say it did not.

THe secret service SUCKED that day. Kennedy could have avoided being shot in the head if the driver had not stomped on the break and slowed down. This allowed the clear head shot.

Personnaly, I am not a believer in Badgeman Theory.

 

[Dreadsox]

I started an E. Howard Hunt thread a little over a year ago in here. If I recall correctly, he implicated Vice President Johnson and a member of the Secret Service whose wife Kennedy was allegedly screwing.

Hunt lacks credibility with his deathbead analysis. His son, stands to make $$$$ off of it.

I believe the Kennedy Assasination has ties to the MOB/Cuban operations. I think that is where the coverup comes into play. Our government was involved so much shit.

I believe that there is an increasing chance that Oswald was somehow involved with the government in some manner.

So many things have blown into conspiracy due to governement secrecy, that have now been shown to be false with the release of documents as time has gone on, really lead me to believe that the government was covering up other operations, that had a chance at being exposed.

 

[Harry Vest]

Did you even bother to click the link before you immediately dismissed it?



The guy didn't even mention the "railroad guy" before he saw the photo, then all of a sudden he remembers.

I prefer to trust scientific evidence over the memory of an old man 25 years after the fact.



I have a Rolling Stone magazine with a 12-page feature about E. Howard Hunt's confession, that (for some reason) I haven't read. I will read it, and your link, tonight and let you know what I think.

But for the record, E. Howard Hunt doesn't hold a lot of credibility with me as it is, being an apologist for Guatemala '53 and planning Watergate.

We shall see.

O.K....I watched the Penn and Teller "Bullshit" episode.
I can't believe you take them seriously. They use the worst possible conspiracy "theorists" and make a mockery of anyone asking real questions. If they weren't such egotistical assholes then I'd have to conclude the involvement ran deeper...but no, they are just two morons who know how to make a good buck. Sad really.

 

[Dreadsox]

Well, the Discovery Channel has recently run two OUTSTANDING documentaries on the assassination. Relatively new material.

One demonstrated through the use of forensics gelatin, human bones, and a very carefully line up a marksman in line with the car. One shot on the area of Kennedy's back that the magic bullet entered. THe bullet traveled through the body, exiting the lower throught and into the Connoly body and EXACTLY into the wrist of the Connoly body. They took the autopsy reports to multiple forensic scientists who all said they would testify in court that the wounds were caused by multiple bullets. They were not told that they were looking at autopsy reports related to the Kennedy assasination.

Upon showing them that the wounds came from one bullet - the forensic scientists were pretty stunned.

THey also ran a show with a computer generated replica of Dealy Plaza. Very nice 3D graphics that clearly trace everything back to the snipers nest.

Oswald was the ONLY employee who turned up missing from the depository.

Oswald was identified for the murder of officer JD Tippet which occured just after the assasination 1/2 hour or so.

Oswald showed up to see his wife the night before - they had separated - he came to visit the children in a regular pattern for the months prior. THis was the only time he showed up unannounced/on an unscheduled night. His rifle, which was stored with Marina and the family, was removed that night by Oswald. He left Marina his wedding ring and money that night - something he never did before. - other than one other time - the Assasination Attempt on General Edwin Walker. His wife confirmed for the Warren Commission that Lee indeed had attempted to Kill the General, and the pattern of leaving her things after that action, follows the pattern of Oswald leaving her things the night before he killed Kennedy.

There is not a doubt in my mind that Lee Harvey Oswald was either the lone assassin or a consipirator. I still lean conspirator in the sense that I believe he was involved with people who wanted Kennedy dead, but he was the loan gunman.

Currently, I have chatted online with an intelligence officer who alleges that he was sent to Dealy Plaza with a team to prevent the assasination. He belives that JMWAVE out of Miami is/may have been the governement connection to the assassination.

Peace out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JMWAVE

Porter Goss was involved in that project along with Hunt & George HW Bush.

From JMWAVE operation Northwoods was created:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Basically this operation was about bringing the USA into armed conflict.

 

[Dreadsox]

These are the likely suspects:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_40

 

[Harry Vest]

Very informative. Thanks. But I still cannot see Oswald as a lone gunman. You'd have to be the worlds best sniper to pull it off alone. And don't forget the witnesses that swear they heard shots from the grassy knoll.

 

[Vincent Vega]

In such a surrounding you hear shots from almost everywhere.

I'm still torn between believing it was really some extremely "lucky shots" (don't kill me here, but I can't think of another term for that) or that it indeed was a huge cover-up conspiracy.
I've once seen another documentation where they took many of the popular theories and tested them, e.g. all three shots (Were three shots possible, could he have hit three times in that time span, the magic bullet phenomenon, the sound thing etc.) and could disprove all these arguments quite comprehensibly.
And I think what DaveC says, that so many people that would have to be involved or at least known something, can't keep quiet for so long, is a very relevant argument. It's also often used in case of the 9/11 conspiracy theories, where everyone agrees that couldn't be possible. I think similar would be the case here.

 

[Dreadsox]

Very informative. Thanks. But I still cannot see Oswald as a lone gunman. You'd have to be the worlds best sniper to pull it off alone. And don't forget the witnesses that swear they heard shots from the grassy knoll.

Well, I guess you solved it then.

Harry - I suggest you read up some. Basic Military markmanship in boot camp trains soldiers to take aim with their breathing in an up and down motion to make the shots easy. This was the shot Oswald had.

From the angle of the snipers nest he was virtually shooting at a stationary target. No marksman wants to be on the right side of the target moving from right to left with the target to make the shot. If your target is moving away from you the up down motion for anyone attempting a shot is much easier than swaying from left to right. You are also forgetting that OSWALD had a scope on the rifle.

1. Virgil Hoffman and Jean Hill waited twenty years to come forward and claim they saw someone behind the picket fence. They waited TWENTY YEARS. Nobody else ever testified that they ssaw someone behind the fence - not now - not ever.

Lee Bowers was 120 Yards away from the picket fence and testifies that he had a view of the entire area. His testimony was that there was NOBODY there. He had the direct view of the only exit area from the parking lot behind the fence - he saw NOBODY leave the parking lot.

Dallas Sherrif Eugene Boone who arrived in the parking lot testified that he searched the parking lot and the area behind the fence. He is on record that the flower beds immediately behind the picket fence were untouched - no footprints in the flowerbed and that there was no way anyone could have fired a weapon from the flowerbed without leaving a trace.

There were numberout witnesses who were on the railroad overpass that had DIRECT line of sight with the graddy knoll and the parking lot. The witnesses - every single one of them testified that there was NOBODY in the parking lot behind the fence.

The police officer stationed in the rail yards with a view of the entire parking lot behind the knoll - did not see anhyone in the parking for over an hour before the assasination.

No rifle, cartridge ect was found behind the fence.

2. The Dr.'s all testify from the presidents autopsy that there was no evidence of wounds to the presidents head from the front or the right side. Xrays support the Dr.'s conclusions that the bullet to the presidents head came from behind.

3. If the president were shot from the right side, the bullet would be traveling into the left side of the brain. The bullet fragments found in the presidential limo were all found in the limosene in front of the President. This would indicate that the shot came from behind, not the side. There are no fragments found to the presidents left, nor was Jackie hit with any bullet fragments.

4. Why would a sniper position himself in an area that was within peoples line of sight?

 

[Dreadsox]

In such a surrounding you hear shots from almost everywhere.

I'm still torn between believing it was really some extremely "lucky shots" (don't kill me here, but I can't think of another term for that) or that it indeed was a huge cover-up conspiracy.
I've once seen another documentation where they took many of the popular theories and tested them, e.g. all three shots (Were three shots possible, could he have hit three times in that time span, the magic bullet phenomenon, the sound thing etc.) and could disprove all these arguments quite comprehensibly.
And I think what DaveC says, that so many people that would have to be involved or at least known something, can't keep quiet for so long, is a very relevant argument. It's also often used in case of the 9/11 conspiracy theories, where everyone agrees that couldn't be possible. I think similar would be the case here.

The "magic bullet" is now more and more being proven to be true.l

Three shots were possible. The vehicle slowed down to almost a stop when the head shot took place.


The sound recordings of the assasination have now been proven that the shots did not come from the book depository.

 

[financeguy]

Basic Military markmanship in boot camp trains soldiers to take aim with their breathing in an up and down motion to make the shots easy. This was the shot Oswald had.

I wouldn't challenge any of that, but wasn't there evidence that he was a very poor marksman during his training?

 

[Dreadsox]

One other thing -

The shots that hit Kennedy if fired from the Book depository were 59 and 88 yards away.

THe shortest distance any soldier has to shoot from to qualify with a weapon is 100 yards. The longest distance is 500 yards.

The shot was not one an expert marksman had to take.

 

[financeguy]

Dreadox what's your take on the release of info from Irish government records with regard to the death threats that were made against Kennedy while in Ireland during 1963?

 

[Dreadsox]

Dreadox what's your take on the release of info from Irish government records with regard to the death threats that were made against Kennedy while in Ireland during 1963?

I need to read up on it. I am a little out of touch right now with the school year in full force.

I just read your article. I am pretty sure there were similar type threats when he visited Chicago.

Not much to say without more research than your article.

 

[financeguy]

Do you have a link for me?

Here is one link. There was definitely also an article in the Irish Times in Winter 2006 but I think you have to pay to read their back articles.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20061229/ai_n17092126

 

[Dreadsox]

See above:O)

 

[Dreadsox]

It is interesting that Badge Man only appears in Moorman's photograph. Other photographs taken at apporximately the same time from other angles show a Coke Bottle on the fence.

Haha!!!!

And Dick Cheney's fishing pole looks like a naked lady in his glasses.

 

[Dreadsox]

I wouldn't challenge any of that, but wasn't there evidence that he was a very poor marksman during his training?

Why thank you for bringing this up.

If we look at the distances mentioned above - he was not making a difficult shot. It was closer than the shortest qualification shot for the military.

Oswald qualified as a sharpshooter in the Marines. There is evidence of analysis of his shooting at pop up targets that Oswald was apparently more accurate the faster he had to fire at the targets. On slow fire his accuracy was 76% and on rapid fire his accuracy was 91%. This may explain why his first shot missed.
This phenomenon is explained by marksmen as coming from establishing a rythm. Maybe this is why the second and third shots hit the President.

Oswalds marine qualifications required him to shoot at targets 200, 300, and 500 yards.

Kennedy was basically a stationary target due to the angle, slope of the road, and the fact that he was moving in a direct line away from the target, the shot was EASY.

It is also most likely Oswald did not use the scope but the iron sights on the weapon.

The reason I believe he used the iron sights is it would have been more difficult for him to re aquire his target with the scope as the target was so close.

 

[financeguy]

Why thank you for bringing this up.

If we look at the distances mentioned above - he was not making a difficult shot. It was closer than the shortest qualification shot for the military.

Oswald qualified as a sharpshooter in the Marines. There is evidence of analysis of his shooting at pop up targets that Oswald was apparently more accurate the faster he had to fire at the targets. On slow fire his accuracy was 76% and on rapid fire his accuracy was 91%. This may explain why his first shot missed.
This phenomenon is explained by marksmen as coming from establishing a rythm. Maybe this is why the second and third shots hit the President.

Oswalds marine qualifications required him to shoot at targets 200, 300, and 500 yards.

Kennedy was basically a stationary target due to the angle, slope of the road, and the fact that he was moving in a direct line away from the target, the shot was EASY.

It is also most likely Oswald did not use the scope but the iron sights on the weapon.

The reason I believe he used the iron sights is it would have been more difficult for him to re aquire his target with the scope as the target was so close.

Do you have any references, as this conflicts entirely with anything else I have read on the subject of Oswald's marksmanship.

Also..what was his motive?

And why did he describe himself as a patsy?

 

[Dreadsox]

I would say that Posner's Case Closed and Vincent Bugliosi's Reclaiming History have plenty of evidence about Oswald's shooting abilities.

Motive - Good question - Why did he attempt to kill Edwin Walker? What was his motive there?

When I thought as you did, that he was a terrible shot, I wondered if he was trying to kill Governor Connely, who had changed his discharge from the marines to dishonorable when he was Secretary of Defense? Or was it Navy?

Why would he have killed the police officer if he was not trying to escape? Why would he have changed his pattern and visited his wife the night before the assasination? Why would he leave his wedding ring and money for his family the night before? The night before the assassination was the ONLY time he ever visited her unannounced. It was not the only time he left behind things for his family, he did act similarly the night he attempted to kill Edwin Walker.

Another misconception is that nobody has been able to duplicate the number of shots. All eleven marksmen contracted by the FBI were able to fire the three shots faster than was required by Oswald. They were all firing at a moving target of eleven miles per hour.

 

[Dreadsox]

Motive - The question in my mind is this - Was Oswald working for our governement? Was Oswald a disillusioned Marxist, who found no satisfaction in Russia only to put his hopes on Cuba? Was he working for Cuba?

Why had he attempted to infiltrate anti-Castro Organizations when he lived in New Orleans? Organizations that were supplied and sponsored by the US Governmment.....Was he angry when he was not granted permission by the soviet governement to travel to Cuba in the weeks prior to the assassination?

 

[DaveC]

Dreadsox has pretty much blown this "Badge Man" bunko out of the water.