bad things happen to good people. so who is in control?

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Se7en

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last fall around this time, i had a friend of mine die in a car accident. him and a few of his TKD friends were on route to n. carolina for a martial arts competition when they were cut off by a department of transportation truck, slid through the median strip of one of pennsylvania's busiest interstates and then were struck by two tractor trailors. one of 4 survived. i only knew one of them, but he was honestly one of the nicest persons that i have ever met. polite, sincere, friendly, and he had an air of innocence about him that is so rare these days. it wasn't his time to die, he had a whole life ahead of him. who is in control?

tonight i received news that one of my best friend's mom passed away last night from cancer. another tragedy almost exactly a year from the car accident. i don't even know what to say to console my friend, she's been there for me when i needed her...but i can't even imagine what it's like to lose a parent when you're only 22 years old. i have nothing to say to her other than that i love her to death and that i will do whatever i can to help. i just feel like that isn't enough. it's frustrating. she doesn't deserve to lose her mom at this point in her life and her mother sure didn't deserve to be eaten away at by that terrible disease. who is in control?

i am a former believer (christianity) and left the faith for many reasons i won't go into here, but these sort of tragedies coupled with the pathetic state of the world today convinces me that god is not playing an active role in our universe. i see the handiwork of an incredible intelligence in creation, but its presence escapes me. so i ask each of you , who is in control?

don't sorrow, no don't weap for tonight at last i am coming home.
 
i am sorry to hear about these losses

my mother died of cancer when I was ten

i could go on about my losses.




in my darkest hour

i read Kushner's book.


"When Bad Things Happen to Good People"

It helped me a great deal.

It is available in paperback

it provides comfort and addresses the very questions you have asked.

There is room for belief in a world where bad things happen.

Tell your friend you are sorry for her loss. Ask if she needs anything.

It gets better. Again I encourage you to get this book.
 
I don't think anyone's in control, and I don't mean for that to sound at all flippant. What I mean is I think bad things, and good things too, for that matter, just happen. I don't think your friend's mom dying of cancer was part of anyone's plan. I don't think it was to make your friend a stronger person or because God needed more angels, or any of the things you hear when people die, especially when they die young. I don't buy the God has a plan, we just don't know what it is, deal.

So I guess I just don't know. I guess what I mostly try to do when I wonder about this is just realize that I will never know why most things happen, but I just try to manage to live my life as well as I can.
 
I'm very sorry for your losses. Don't worry about saying the right things to your friend...sometimes just being there is plenty.

I find it very discouraging that people will blame God for the actions of people. God is not capable of evil...we certainly are. It's our free will that gives us the option to choose. When it comes to sickness...yes sickness is a terrible thing and it wasn't part of God's plan for us either. Sickness came into the world when we gave God the finger and told Him we didn't need His help...the world is not as it should be, thankfully God has provided a solution. God's presence is visible Se7en...I have seen miracles and His Providence--unforetuantly there is evil visible in this world as well.

:heart: Psalm 73 :heart:
 
1st i'm sorry what hapened to them and nothing what i write now should justify that, nothing of this can make the pain you feel less..

i am a former believer (christianity) and left the faith for many reasons i won't go into here, but these sort of tragedies coupled with the pathetic state of the world today convinces me that god is not playing an active role in our universe. i see the handiwork of an incredible intelligence in creation, but its presence escapes me. so i ask each of you , who is in control?

Sin is the distance to god - and because mankind choosed sin over the close relationship to god these things can hapen.
It has nothing to do with these lovely people you mentioned and their faith dosn't ensure that nothing hapens to them. God is no candy machine (you please him and get some candy (adorable life etc) for it. His plan is to cure us (Jesus) from this disease (sin).
So the important part in this is eternity not our current life.
Sorry i can't explain to you why some things in detail hapen, it's just sad and sometimes turns my stomach upside down. I think it's a kind of "Theatre of the Universe" and god let it hapen because we had the free choice to join him or to leave him (maybee we are like a small kid that continuosely wants to touch the hot oven), the rest of the universe can see now what hapens even to good men and women if they choose sin.
Anyway because i believe in god i'm sure death is the just the beginning of something bigger and better, not the end.

I'm sorry for you what hapened to your friends :hug:
 
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I am sorry for your losses too. :hug: I am also dealing with a loss this week as my stepfather passed away on Tuesday from cancer. He was 71 and my Mom is 61.

Why these things happen and why doesn't God prevent them from happening is a question I've had. I think it's a huge reason to question faith and question God. I do believe God isn't in control though. No one is. If God is Love and all good - then God isn't responsible for bad things.

In a time of sorrow - it is natural to question God. Of course, it's OK to be angry and question God and yell at God for untimely losses. God can take it! I think ultimately a person will be happier to have faith and look towards God for comfort than to go it alone. Venturing on a faith journey will fill your heart with comfort and compassion. Looking and finding the answers will be better than assuming God is in control and shutting the doors to faith.

Good things happen when a group of people get together and want to follow Jesus and serve. A Church congregation can be a great network to do amazing things in the world. Perhaps if we get together and pray and work on good things that can change the world we will be in a better place than giving up. With faith brings hope.
 
Sin is just part of human nature as is good; to search for common humanity is a much nobler pursuit than the inherently devisive concepts of religion and nation. We are all human beings and we have too much in common to stay seperate. I dream of seeing a world where the hate is abandoned and all are free; a world where living is worthwhile.

We live our lives and we die. Bad things happen to good people and the most evil inflict it at their whim because the world is not pre-determined. Any one of us could be dead tomorrow and we may not have made a difference in the world. If there is no big meaning to all this, if nothing that we do matters, then the smallest acts of generosity can be the greatest thing.

There is no eternity, no elysium where those that suffered can live in perfect happiness for all eternity. We have one life on this lump of rock, all of us are mortal, and we must make sure that we have a world where millions are not dying from preventable disease. Where education is universal. Where human rights are reciognized and those that abuse them are prevented from doing so. We only have one chance, so make it count, all that matters is what we do.
 
Everyone else has said some good things here, but I'll also second deep's recommendation of Rabbi Kushner. His When All You've Ever Wanted Isn't Enough is also a very comforting read.
 
When I had a rash of bad luck earlier this year--a friend was killed in a car accident, I got a painful stress-induced illness, my mother had a stroke--I wondered who was in charge myself. I believe in God, so I don't know why this stuff happens. There is always going to be stuff I simply don't understand.
 
God is in control.


The whys are beyond our comprehension, as is the full nature of what is good and bad.

God knows when He will call us home. Not a second sooner, not a second later.

God does promise us a peace that surpasses all understanding. It is a promise for us today. He knows there are hurts in this world and He is the ultimate source of comfort. All we need to do is ask.

I am sorry for your sorrow and pain and I will be praying for you.
 
first, i would like to say thank you to you all for your kind words. it is appreciated.

indra said:
What I mean is I think bad things, and good things too, for that matter, just happen. I don't think your friend's mom dying of cancer was part of anyone's plan. I don't think it was to make your friend a stronger person or because God needed more angels, or any of the things you hear when people die, especially when they die young. I don't buy the God has a plan, we just don't know what it is, deal.

So I guess I just don't know.

i completely agree with you here and i admire anyone who has the courage to be able to say "i just don't know." the ability to be able to say that is what i'm looking for. there continues to be this longing for something more though. a relic from my evangelical days perhaps.

starsgoblue said:

Sickness came into the world when we gave God the finger and told Him we didn't need His help...

this is one part of religion i am no longer able to accept. i never gave god the finger, but i am damned by the sins of my forefathers. where is the love?

A_Wanderer said:

Sin is just part of human nature as is good; to search for common humanity is a much nobler pursuit than the inherently devisive concepts of religion and nation. We are all human beings and we have too much in common to stay seperate. I dream of seeing a world where the hate is abandoned and all are free; a world where living is worthwhile.

We live our lives and we die. Bad things happen to good people and the most evil inflict it at their whim because the world is not pre-determined. Any one of us could be dead tomorrow and we may not have made a difference in the world. If there is no big meaning to all this, if nothing that we do matters, then the smallest acts of generosity can be the greatest thing.

There is no eternity, no elysium where those that suffered can live in perfect happiness for all eternity. We have one life on this lump of rock, all of us are mortal, and we must make sure that we have a world where millions are not dying from preventable disease. Where education is universal. Where human rights are reciognized and those that abuse them are prevented from doing so. We only have one chance, so make it count, all that matters is what we do.

:up:

i think that our lives should be focused on this life, relegating any afterlife to afterthoughts. when people focus on the afterlife over this one i can't help but be reminded of marx's criticism of religion: it is the opium of the masses; it is a projection of the longing for material security in this life into hope for security in an immaterial ideal; it perpetuates inequality and injustice by turning our eyes upon a god and away from each other.

i think that there is a higher intelligence out there somewhere. creation seems inconceivable without it. but i think it is clear that its presence is absent. we've been given all we need, intellectually and materially. maybe we're in control.
 
Se7en said:
this is one part of religion i am no longer able to accept. i never gave god the finger, but i am damned by the sins of my forefathers. where is the love?

The love is there, just read the Bible. The one theme from cover to cover is redemption. That is the love.
 
Se7en said:
first, i would like to say thank you to you all for your kind words. it is appreciated.



i completely agree with you here and i admire anyone who has the courage to be able to say "i just don't know." the ability to be able to say that is what i'm looking for. there continues to be this longing for something more though. a relic from my evangelical days perhaps.



this is one part of religion i am no longer able to accept. i never gave god the finger, but i am damned by the sins of my forefathers. where is the love?



:up:

i think that our lives should be focused on this life, relegating any afterlife to afterthoughts. when people focus on the afterlife over this one i can't help but be reminded of marx's criticism of religion: it is the opium of the masses; it is a projection of the longing for material security in this life into hope for security in an immaterial ideal; it perpetuates inequality and injustice by turning our eyes upon a god and away from each other.

i think that there is a higher intelligence out there somewhere. creation seems inconceivable without it. but i think it is clear that its presence is absent. we've been given all we need, intellectually and materially. maybe we're in control.


i understand and agree with much said here.

i only reccomend the book because it offers a way for belief without all the irrational stuff* (my thinking for me) people throw at you.
 
OK, I'm posting something I added to Dread's gift thread [which you should read] and I think it's appropriate here.

" I remember a neighbor coming over to our house. We had a monsignor [big Catholic priest guy] over and we're talking with him. She asked this monsignor why bad things happen to good people. He said it was because God loves us. Because you never know how important love is until you don't have it or how important happiness is until you are sad. I remember a friend bringing me soup and a card when I had bronchitis in college. The card read "You never realize how blessed you are to be healthy until you are sick." Indeed."

I believe this may be similar to Rabbi Kushner, deep, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Se7en, I know this sounds like total crap but I truly believe things happen for a reason. Looking back on this next year or five years from now or whatever, you may realize you've become stronger than you ever were, more courageous, more loving, living life more fully, whatever. What you get it out of it is for you. You will have more hardships in life, this is unfortunately not going to be the last, but these things are learning experiences that shape you as a human. It sucks, it really does, but sooner or later it gets better.
 
One thought:

The terms "bad" and "good" imply you have an objective standard to measure which is which. Otherwise it would be "things I do not personally prefer" and "things I do." But to say something is "bad" objectively means you have transcended your subjectivity and have weighed this event somehow and have labeled it "bad." What is the objective standard you are referring to?

Example: to the allied forces, Hitler's actions were "bad," to a Nazi soldier, they were "good." If both views are equally valid, in the absense of an objective standard beyond both, you can only say that we destroyed Hitler because we did not "prefer" his actions, the way you might "prefer" vanilla ice cream to chocolate. So before you negate the Divine from the equation, at least realize how your very argument against Divine Justice is entirely dependant upon it.
 
Second thought:

If this world is all you know, and realize it is seemingly skewed beyond repair, ask yourself how you would recognize such a thing, having lived here for so long; this being the only world you have experienced.

Does a fish that only knows wetness long for air? When you have only seen crooked lines, can you imagine a straight one?

If, in our world bad things happen to good people, ask yourself what it is in you that is repulsed by this. What is it that seems to expect something else. What does that telll you about yourself and the world you inhabit?

Example: We hunger - there is food. We thirst - there is water. We breathe - there is air. We have sexual needs - there is sex.

We long for a fair world in an unfair one - there is .... ?????
 
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The only point I'm really making here (and you can take it or leave it) is that our need for That Which Is Beyond Us is so inate, we even depend on it's existence for the very arguments we use to dismantle it.
 
Interesting good vs. bad iota. It's subjective. But the point of all this is that its subjective to YOU. If you want to believe God will help you out, so be it. If you don't believe in God and get out on your own, so be it.

I think the larger picture we're all talking about is the Grief Cycle, whether you are griefing for a death or grieving for a broken leg or being evicted from your house etc. We find ways to deal with the problem as part of a journey from denial to acceptance. For some that is God, for some that is friends, for some that is simple inner peace. Whatever it is, we ultimately are our own judges when it comes to how we view our life. Who is in control? Whoever you want to be in control or whoever you want to believe is in control if you believe there is a force bigger than you.
 
sharky said:
OK, I'm posting something I added to Dread's gift thread [which you should read] and I think it's appropriate here.

" I remember a neighbor coming over to our house. We had a monsignor [big Catholic priest guy] over and we're talking with him. She asked this monsignor why bad things happen to good people. He said it was because God loves us. Because you never know how important love is until you don't have it or how important happiness is until you are sad. I remember a friend bringing me soup and a card when I had bronchitis in college. The card read "You never realize how blessed you are to be healthy until you are sick." Indeed."

I believe this may be similar to Rabbi Kushner, deep, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Se7en, I know this sounds like total crap but I truly believe things happen for a reason. Looking back on this next year or five years from now or whatever, you may realize you've become stronger than you ever were, more courageous, more loving, living life more fully, whatever. What you get it out of it is for you. You will have more hardships in life, this is unfortunately not going to be the last, but these things are learning experiences that shape you as a human. It sucks, it really does, but sooner or later it gets better.


I believe this may be similar to Rabbi Kushner, deep, but correct me if I'm wrong.


Not to take anything away from your experiences, but that is not the concept of his book.


I agree it does get better.

I remember someone telling me time heals all, just give it some time.

I was almost out of my mind. I was thinking he was telling a man engulfed in flames, "Don't worry eventually the fire will burn out"

well, it did and I got my life back.
 
sharky said:
Se7en, I know this sounds like total crap but I truly believe things happen for a reason. Looking back on this next year or five years from now or whatever, you may realize you've become stronger than you ever were, more courageous, more loving, living life more fully, whatever. What you get it out of it is for you. You will have more hardships in life, this is unfortunately not going to be the last, but these things are learning experiences that shape you as a human. It sucks, it really does, but sooner or later it gets better.

please don't take this as a personal attack, it is not my intention...

but why people think like this, i just cannot understand. if things truly happen for a reason then god has a lot of explaining to do. for what reason are millions of africans living in extreme poverty and hunger? are they becoming stronger people because they shit in the same water they drink from? is a 12 year old girl in china learning to appreciate the gift of human labor because after all, she gets a dollar at the end of her work day? over half the world's population lives on $2 american dollars or less a day, and for what reason? are they building character when they put there children to bed hungry every night? just as there is no justification for these situations, i see no divine justification or evidence of a plan when someone is stricken with cancer. if slowly being destroyed by a disease for 3 or 4 years is god's way of showing us how precious life is and that we can only realize that on our death bed is bullshit.

while i recognize that of course there are hardships in life, and that as learning experiences they shape us as human beings - there is no reason for them.

sorry, i'm grumpy this morning. :ohmy:
 
There is never a higher reason for events, what interest would an all powerful being have in inflicting pain on an individual. Nobody is ever in control.

God's will is a wonderful concept of inventing an answer to any imaginable question; life, death and belief it all falls under the sway of a very simple and in many way implausible proposition. An all powerful being that holds an interest in individual peoples lives.

I refuse to accept the concept of determinism because I think that we have choice, at a fundamental level the universe is uncertain, application of science does not create a clockwork universe where everything is pre-determined. We are in control of our own lives and we will not be rewarded or punished by any higher power. Bad things happen, good things happen - the cause is always from within the universe.

The wheel never stops turning.
 
Se7en said:
but why people think like this, i just cannot understand. if things truly happen for a reason then god has a lot of explaining to do. for what reason are millions of africans living in extreme poverty and hunger? are they becoming stronger people because they shit in the same water they drink from? is a 12 year old girl in china learning to appreciate the gift of human labor because after all, she gets a dollar at the end of her work day? over half the world's population lives on $2 american dollars or less a day, and for what reason? are they building character when they put there children to bed hungry every night? just as there is no justification for these situations, i see no divine justification or evidence of a plan when someone is stricken with cancer. if slowly being destroyed by a disease for 3 or 4 years is god's way of showing us how precious life is and that we can only realize that on our death bed is bullshit.

If I may speak for Sharky, I think a little clarification is in order. When people say things like "everything happens for a reason," their true intention may be "good things can result from bad circumstances." For instance, I don't believe God had the desire or will for your friend's mother to have cancer. I believe that the pain and agony you and your friends have faced in this ordeal is the same pain and agony that God feels when He watches His loved ones suffer.

However, I think what Sharky and others are trying to say is, good can come from bad situations. Basically, every cloud has a silver lining, sort of thing. Great life lessons and positive realizations can come from the tragedies we face in life. Tragedies aren't good in themselves, but good can come from them. Make sense?
 
As far as my personal belief in where God plays a role in tragedy . . .

Theologically speaking, I think God's role in this world made a major change once sin entered the world. I believe that God loves our freedom and allows us to continue in the choices we make, even the wrong ones. Thus, once humankind chose sin, God allowed us to suffer the end results of our choice.

This is why I believe bad things happen to good people. Since humanity decided on its own selfish desires and not the ways of God, God allowed sin to have its destructive way on our world and the pain and agony it brings. We're all in this together, and thus God allows for bad things to happen to good people because He will not force His will or His action on a world we have chosen for ourselves. Disease, tragedy, natural disasters, accidents, murder, genocide, greed, lust, rage, apathy, etc. These are all products of what sin has wrought, and since all of humanity has chosen sin, all of humanity in some way faces these consequences.

Did your friend's mother SPECIFICALLY choose the painful and suffering of cancer? Absolutely not. She, as an individual, did nothing on her own to deserve what happened to her. But since she's a human being, and since she is a collective of the human race, she directly or indirectly lives with the choices we all make.

If there's anything to further explain or clarify, feel free to ask.
 
In a way, yes. I believe that once humanity chose sin, the world became, well, jacked up. Thus the "innocent" suffer not because they personally have done anything wrong, but because they're unfortunate enough to live in a jacked up world.

It's all a mess. Pick up the morning paper and you can see that. But this mess is the mess we've created ourselves.

(BTW, A_Wanderer, even though we fall on the exact opposite sides of most spiritual issues, I always enjoy your posts. I appreciate it when an "opponent" :wink: can give solid responses.)
 
It wasn't and isn't God's plan for any of us to die, and he doesnt leave us in the dark as why these things happen. A few points here are correct in that mankind is lost in sin but not by choice we are all sinners and born into sin because of adam and eve's disobedience in the garden of eden.. they were effectivly saying we don't need God we want to rule ourselves and the claim that satan made that Gods creatures don't need him and can rule themselves,
of course God could have wiped out satan and adam and eve back then and started over.. but would this question have been answered, can we rule ourselves successfully without Gods help and guidance?..

well he has let this time pass, let men have all sorts of goverments and do their own thing... some of the posts here have made it clear that humans haven't done a very good job of it from the state of the world.

Yet he did not abandon us to our fate that our parents adam and eve brought upon us.. of sickness and death, adam was a perfect man in the case of a soul for a soul and in his justice to buy us back from that sin and death brought about by adam and eve God send his son to earth he willingly give up his life in that terrible death to reconcile us with God.. that is why he is referred to as the lamb of God who has taken on the sins of the world

and also to become a king a king to a heavenly kingdom or goverment the one most christans pray the our father or the lords prayer.. let your kingdom come let your will be done on earth as in heavens... a lot of people never really take the time to think about these words and what exactly they are praying for.. but it is actually Gods goverment in heaven who is going to do away with worldly Goverments on earth run unsuccesfully by man

Gods plan is to oust satan and his demons who have been the cause of all this trouble we have seen, to bring about mankind into a loving close relationship with him not in heaven, but here on the earth,

do to away with sickness and death, when Jesus resurrected those dead and healed the sick when he was on earth it was a small sign of what he was going to do on a bigger scale one day in the bible God refers to death as an enemy he will finally wipe out.. I can understand your frustration at people saying it is Gods plan for people to die and they are happier with him in heaven.. that is not the case

it pains God very much when we lose loved ones in death and he looks forward to the day when he can resurrect them and return them to their loved ones and he is going to do it ver soon.. what exactly is he doing about it now is letting people know this is what he has planned for the future.. give them the chance to turn to him and be part of his plans.. of course he is not going to force you to worship him, but he is warning now that there will come a time when he is going to come to blows with satan and the demons and those on earth who oppose him when he will destroy the wicked, and now he is using this time for showing mercy and love by giving us the choiceof where we stand before he does take action..

so this attitide lets not worry about an after life and just live this life is not a very good one, when its now we have to make up our minds,

of course satan is happy to have people just think this life is all that there is and not worry about anything else, then he robs them of that chance of getting close to God and finding out what really is going on he doesnt care if we die.. the bible states that satan is blinding the minds of the unbelievers..

but in the end I guess its up to every one to believe what they want.. but I just had to put my bit in to answer your questions about what is Gods plan and to let you know he does care:)
 
Se7en said:



this is one part of religion i am no longer able to accept. i never gave god the finger, but i am damned by the sins of my forefathers. where is the love?


You gave Him the proverbial finger when you told Him you didn't need Him anymore....



You aren't damned by the sins of your forefathers....that's what grace is all about. Grace is love in action. It is God not treating us in a way we deserve. Grace implies a sense of mercy and compassion, a restoration of broken relationships-especially one's spiritual ties with God. Black becomes white, dark becomes light, no shame, no regret. God, who needs nothing from anyone, extends grace as an unselfish act of love.
 
stammer476 said:
If I may speak for Sharky, I think a little clarification is in order. When people say things like "everything happens for a reason," their true intention may be "good things can result from bad circumstances."

Indeed. I guess I'm so used to wrapping it up in the "Everything for a reason" mantra. I take it from personal experience. When I was 20, I was diagnosed with cancer, which made me realize I'm stronger than I thought I was. When I was 24, I worked across the street from the Trade Center -- until the morning I was at work and watched people jump to their deaths and outran two collapsing buildings. I remember conforting myself that day by thinking "Eh, I've been through this before." I was totally out of my mind, mind you, and in complete shock, but it comforted me in the months that followed, knowing that I was strong enough to handle that because I was strong enough to deal with a life-altering experience before.

The night of 9/11, a neighbor came over to my parents' house and said to my mom "God must have something planned for her if she keeps surviving these things." I believe she is right, I don't know what exactly he has planned but I believe she is right.

I think the difference betweeen you and I, Se7en, is the distance from the events. I'm not as angry as I first was after these traumas and I've been able to look more calmly at it. Three years after the 9/11 attacks, seven years in remission, I'm planning my wedding. I'm happy and I have the rest of my life to live. Will these things make me a better wife? A better mother? I dunno but that's what makes life interesting, for better or worse.

Usually people say "Everything happens for a reason" because they don't know what else to say. I say it because I'm living proof of it. But I think Stammer is right -- when you have a chance to gain perspective, to look back at how you have changed, you may be surprised to find the positive things these events teach you about yourself. Like I said, life is crap. I talked to a friend whose sister died five years ago tonight. It's still not easy for her. I had a friend who told me I should just get over 9/11 and I thought she was out of her mind. These are not easy things to deal with, these are life things. And it hurts. but sooner or later, things get better, you realize your perspective of life is changed and you go on living because you realize how precious life really is.
 
What do you say to someone whose 4 year old daughter was kidnapped by a sexual pervert.

And the 4 year old was abused for 3 weeks, slowly tortured and eventually beat to death?
 
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