Attitudes to alcohol

[A_Wanderer]

Ah but driving drunk is putting other people at a risk of harm as much as firing a gun off in random directions on a street.

 

[anitram]

And alcoholics don't put their families at risk just by drinking? Serious psychological harm = serious bodily harm under the law. Use of drugs impacts many people around you. Impacts your employer. Impacts the society in terms of economics (surely it is not the best social utility to have health care costs drained on cirrhosed livers or liver transplants....)

Your libertarian views would only work in some universe where nobody's actions affected another human being.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Is libertarianism now hedonism? Does the ability to purchase alcohol mean that we all must abuse that drug? Would the legalisation of cannabis mean that we would all need to abandon our lives to become potheads?

I do think that the freedom to use drugs is good and it is excercising control over our minds, most people are capable of doing it in a somewhat responsible manner and making informed choices about their drug use - does that mean that people don't make bad choices, no - but even if it gets put under a harsh degree of regulation they will still make those bad choices illegally.

Libertarianism is utterly incompatible with the social democracy and civil society; if you looked at the libertarian party of the US the answer to the question of healthcare costs is pretty self evident.

 

[financeguy]

And alcoholics don't put their families at risk just by drinking? Serious psychological harm = serious bodily harm under the law. Use of drugs impacts many people around you. Impacts your employer. Impacts the society in terms of economics (surely it is not the best social utility to have health care costs drained on cirrhosed livers or liver transplants....)

All of these perceived harms must be set against the (more difficult to measure) benefits of alcohol.

 

[Vincent Vega]

One point to note, alcohol consumption per capita in America has actually declined very significantly in recent decades.

Yes, and as said in the surveys in Europe less people are drinking, but the ones who do drink more.


Of course that doesn't count for everyone, and addicts not included.

 

[U2Man]

Besides binge-drinking, another thing I've been noticing a lot lately is people drinking while taking certain drugs. Two years ago, a fellow student died after taking sleeping pills and one drink.

that sounds a little extreme. he must have taken a lot of sleeping pills, or been allergic to them. while mixing alcohol and sleeping pills is a very bad idea because they amplify their effects, dying from a sleeping pill and one drink is quite unfortunate.

 

[Westport]

I'll have a glass of wine or two but I'm I've learned that I am powerless over other people's drinking, their behavior and attitudes. I'm better off if I keep the focus on myself.

 

[dazzlingamy]

what is an underage drinking ticket? is it like a fine you have to pay?

Coming from a small country town in Australia, I don't know one person who hasn't gotten totally pissed, and done dumb things, or passed out or chucked everywhere (so foul! )

BUT as i've now hit the middle twenties, those people i knew have now become more responsible drinkers, and have grown out of that "lets get mashed" type of thinking - i know I have.

So while I agree that alcoholism is a bad thing, I think most kids who drink grow out of it, and its all a bit of fun on the way to adulthood. And those few that get caught in the net - well there are support structures for them to get help.

 

[financeguy]

Coming from a small country town in Australia, I don't know one person who hasn't gotten totally pissed, and done dumb things, or passed out or chucked everywhere (so foul! )

Yes, I think what is considered to be 'alcoholism' very much varies from culture to culture.

I do think that what often gets missed in threads like this is that cultural assumptions which apply in America, are automatically assumed to apply elsewhere - the two drinks three or four times a week, which in Ireland, qualifies as moderate, even relatively light, social drinking, is taken to be evidence of binge drinking, possibly even of alcoholism, in the US.

 

[VertigoGal]

Yes, I think what is considered to be 'alcoholism' very much varies from culture to culture.

I do think that what often gets missed in threads like this is that cultural assumptions which apply in America, are automatically assumed to apply elsewhere - the two drinks three or four times a week, which in Ireland, qualifies as moderate, even relatively light, social drinking, is taken to be evidence of binge drinking, possibly even of alcoholism, in the US.

And that even applies to this thread vs. the reality of most Americans' attitudes. I don't know anyone who would consider a few drinks several times a week to mean alcoholism. And it's pretty commonly accepted by most people I know that kids in high school/college are going to mess around a bit with alcohol and hopefully grow out of it as they get older.

Maybe the culture is slightly different than in Europe, but it's not exactly a country of people who all disapprove of any form of drinking to get drunk either.

 

[anitram]

And that even applies to this thread vs. the reality of most Americans' attitudes. I don't know anyone who would consider a few drinks several times a week to mean alcoholism.

Who on this thread thinks that?

Alcoholism is a serious disease. Going out to a bar 2-3 nights a week while in college is something entirely different than systematic drinking. I don't see that anyone here implied that a few drinks several times a week is either equivalent to binge drinking or alcoholism.

There certainly are cultural differences. But just because a culture defines alcohol consumption differently doesn't mean somebody isn't an alcoholic. I only now realize my grandfather was an alcoholic. Drinking alone at 11 am is not normal. Sneaking flasks of alcohol you bought at the market into your nursing home to drink all day is not normal. Sitting at a tavern with three other old men until your son in law has to go get you, 4-5 days a week is not normal. It isn't "oh, he's an old man, that's what old men do." It's alcoholism. Maybe if somebody had the strength of character to overcome culture, his end of life would not have been what it was. I regret it every day.

 

[VertigoGal]

I was only referring to what financeguy said, I honestly don't know if anyone else mentioned thinking that in the thread. I was just taling about his post...

 

[financeguy]

There certainly are cultural differences. But just because a culture defines alcohol consumption differently doesn't mean somebody isn't an alcoholic. I only now realize my grandfather was an alcoholic. Drinking alone at 11 am is not normal. Sneaking flasks of alcohol you bought at the market into your nursing home to drink all day is not normal. Sitting at a tavern with three other old men until your son in law has to go get you, 4-5 days a week is not normal. It isn't "oh, he's an old man, that's what old men do." It's alcoholism. Maybe if somebody had the strength of character to overcome culture, his end of life would not have been what it was. I regret it every day.

Well, I don't know. It could be seen as just a different type of normality. Alcoholism can be a surprisingly civilised way of life, and being mildly inebriated at unusual times of the day and night has brought joy to millions. Never forget that the man that saved us from Nazism was the well known drunkard, Winston Churchill.

Actually, when it comes down to it, practically all of the artists, politicians, thinkers and writers I admire were drunks, or addicts of one form or another.

 

[VertigoGal]

alcoholics can contribute things to society. the only problem is they lead miserable lives, make their friends and loved ones miserable, and die miserable deaths.

 

[anitram]

Well, I don't know. It could be seen as just a different type of normality. Alcoholism can be a surprisingly civilised way of life, and being mildly inebriated at unusual times of the day and night has brought joy to millions.

No, it isn't. If you think that it's normal for an old man in a nursing home to go buy homemade wine and then drink it until he no longer knows where he is and ends up wandering out on the street and into the countryside so the police are searching for him for 24 hrs and his family is petrified that he's FROZEN to death, then that's fine. I am telling you that it is alcoholism. (ETA: This happened more than once)

And I don't care if it brought him great JOY to drink himself to a stupor, it made our lives a living hell. So yes, let's let alcoholics drink at unusual times and in unusual amounts because it brings them joy - who cares about the 30 other people whose lives they are ruining.

It was this idiotic attitude of "it's Eastern Europe, old men drink" that made for a sad, depressing ending. Maybe if people there pulled their heads out of their asses some people's lives would be different.

 

[U2Man]

Yes, I think what is considered to be 'alcoholism' very much varies from culture to culture.

I do think that what often gets missed in threads like this is that cultural assumptions which apply in America, are automatically assumed to apply elsewhere - the two drinks three or four times a week, which in Ireland, qualifies as moderate, even relatively light, social drinking, is taken to be evidence of binge drinking, possibly even of alcoholism, in the US.

the autorities in my country recommend that women have 2 and men 3 three drinks a day. it's good for your cardiovascular system.

 

[onebloodonelife]

what is an underage drinking ticket? is it like a fine you have to pay?

Yep, in Minnesota, the ticket is $160 + court fees because you do have to appear in court for it.

 

[Liesje]

that sounds a little extreme. he must have taken a lot of sleeping pills, or been allergic to them. while mixing alcohol and sleeping pills is a very bad idea because they amplify their effects, dying from a sleeping pill and one drink is quite unfortunate.

It was a younger girl, probably 19 or so. Her COD was unknown for several days and most people assumed she had somehow committed suicide, until the autopsies were done and reported she had taken a normal dose of an OTC sleeping pill and had some wine, but not enough wine to make her drunk. Somehow, the combination was lethal and it killed her. I think the ME said because she was so thin and had not eaten a meal at the time, it made the combination more deadly. I don't remember anything about her being allergic to either substance.

 

[Liesje]

As for the alcoholics vs. happy drunks debate, I personally consider someone an alcoholic for one of two reasons:

An alcoholic is someone who can be conscious and semi-functional at a level of intoxication that would otherwise KILL someone who, say, drinks socially 1-2 times a week.

An alcoholic is someone whose need/desire to drink essentially determines everything about their lifestyle. For example, I consider my uncle and alcoholic. He has no job and no life because his life revolves around alcohol. He has faked a disability so that he gets disability money to use for alcohol. He can't keep an actual job because he has to drink all day and go to the bar every night.

If you can routinely blow a .3 and still be walking around, you are an alcoholic. If you need alcohol to function, you are an alcoholic.

Of course there are differences in how many times a week someone drinks or how many drinks = alcoholism. Obviously a guy weighing twice as much as me is going to need a lot more booze to get drunk. If I drink three drinks and he drinks six, I'm not going to say "oh he MUST be an alcoholic!!" But if I find out he loses his job and sets off to the bar before lunchtime each day, I'm going to think he's an alcoholic.

 

[financeguy]

As for the alcoholics vs. happy drunks debate, I personally consider someone an alcoholic for one of two reasons:

An alcoholic is someone who can be conscious and semi-functional at a level of intoxication that would otherwise KILL someone who, say, drinks socially 1-2 times a week.

An alcoholic is someone whose need/desire to drink essentially determines everything about their lifestyle. For example, I consider my uncle and alcoholic. He has no job and no life because his life revolves around alcohol. He has faked a disability so that he gets disability money to use for alcohol. He can't keep an actual job because he has to drink all day and go to the bar every night.

If you can routinely blow a .3 and still be walking around, you are an alcoholic. If you need alcohol to function, you are an alcoholic.

Yes, I agree with the above definition.

 

[maycocksean]

All of these perceived harms must be set against the (more difficult to measure) benefits of alcohol.

As difficulti as it might be, I'd be interested to in having you elaborate on the benefits.

For me, at least, I can't see what benefits would be compelling enought to make me even a social a drinker.

But that's just me.

 

[Vincent Vega]

It's said, and generally proven, that one glass of wine or one bottle of beer a day does more good than bad, because the amount of alcohol is below the damaging line, and severaly ingredients of beer and wine have several positive effects on the body.

A small glass of sparkling wine in the morning is sometimes helpful because it raises the blood pressure, so if you have a low blood pressure this could help.
But it's really only small amounts, if you drink three beer every day it's not healthy, but not that dangerous either.

But people should be careful. If you drink a few beers nearly every day because it's normal to meet with some friends and do some social drinking they may deem it normal, and most of them probably could stop immediately. But alcohol, as any drug, can make you addicted and then sometimes people don't even recognize it.

Like anitram said about her grandfather. When my uncle was in Chernobyl they drank vodka every day, so for them it's just normal. And hence, one can become an addict and nobody even recognizes it.

In the small village I grew up, 850 people, about ten were alcoholics, maybe more. And it wasn't the bunch of unemployed, uneducated people, but family fathers, one was an architect and owned a building company, and such.

 

[VertigoGal]

The benefits, aside from the potential health benefits of a single glass a day, are basically social situations and fun. It is in fact fun to get a little drunk. If, as most of the population, you aren't an alcoholic and you're responsible enough only to do it in appropriate and safe situations, it can be fun. And part of your life experience, if you take the risk that you're not the 1 in whatever who ends up an alcoholic. For some people that risk is worth taking, for others it's not. I'm not saying it's a necessary part of your life experience, people can have tons of fun without alcohol. But for a lot of people getting drunk sometimes is worth potential risks. There are risks inherent in everything we do.

I mean I have an alcoholic parent and over 50% of my extended family (grandparents, aunts, uncles) are alcoholics, some in recovery some not. But I'll drink sometimes, like maybe once a month. I realize I have a predisposition and I dunno if I'll continue to take the risk as I get older, but honestly for now it's a bit of fun. I'll only have a few if we're around guys, and only get actually drunk if I'm just with some girlfriends and am spending the night (no driving). I don't think I'm particularly reckless for doing it either- it's only every so often and never in situations where we'd be taken advantage of.

Point is, it has risks, but it's fun. It's not the only thing that people enjoy that has risks not only to themselves but to others. If you start smoking, there's the risk you won't be able to quit when you're pregnant. The numbers of people who acquire driving licenses who really can't drive worth a shit- that's pretty scary. I'm not trying to trivialize alcoholism, because I know it sucks. But the reasons people take the risk are that it's fun, can be enjoyable in social situations, and most people don't get stuck with the shitty genes.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I completely agree.
Although my body somehow doesn't like the intake of alcohol so much anymore, I drink a few beer every now and then and have fun.
That's nice, and as long as I can still realize what is going on around me I enjoy it.

Nevertheless, one party we had to finance or prom it was very great, and I had the most fun even though I just drank one beer the whole evening.

That was great

 

[A_Wanderer]

As difficulti as it might be, I'd be interested to in having you elaborate on the benefits.

For me, at least, I can't see what benefits would be compelling enought to make me even a social a drinker.

But that's just me.

I can't write a great presentation unless i've had a few scotches, it helps streamline ideas; if one comprehends them while slightly inebriated then a sober audience is bound to get it. I correct any minor mistakes later but it works very well for me, also along with other psychoactive drugs one can get a better response to music, literature etc.

 

[Liesje]

Point is, it has risks, but it's fun. It's not the only thing that people enjoy that has risks not only to themselves but to others. If you start smoking, there's the risk you won't be able to quit when you're pregnant. The numbers of people who acquire driving licenses who really can't drive worth a shit- that's pretty scary. I'm not trying to trivialize alcoholism, because I know it sucks. But the reasons people take the risk are that it's fun, can be enjoyable in social situations, and most people don't get stuck with the shitty genes.

You mention alcoholism in this paragraph, but I think you're talking about two totally different things. Social drinking is not even remotely comparable to alcoholism, just as the South Beach diet isn't comparable to anorexia nervosa. One is a habit that involves a fair amount of choice; the other is a psychological disease. Alcoholism has nothing to do with risk, fun, or being social.

I'm mildly allergic to alcohol (my face turns beet red and burns to the point of being painful) so I can't drink more than one drink at a time once or twice a week. I've had my share of fun without alcohol. It can be a component of fun, but I don't consider it an actual benefit because it's not like people can't have fun without it. It's not a very credible benefit when the alternative offers the exact same results and is usually safer and healthier.

I really don't care if teenagers drink a few every now and then, but we might as well be real about it and not try to sugar coat it into some sort of health benefit. Getting trashed isn't healthy, period, but neither are cheese burgers, soda, candy, etc so I'm not going to judge one against the other like people who drink are morally retarded or something. I don't think what I consider "phase drinking" to be particularly dangerous, but more and more I see kids who don't know their limits and think they are invincible (not just with alcohol) and honestly it looks pretty ridiculous. At one point, my little bro was the only one on his crew who had a license. Everyone else had been suspended or permanently banned from driving b/c of DUIs. These are all good kids too, good kids, but immature kids making dumb decisions.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I really don't care if teenagers drink a few every now and then, but we might as well be real about it and not try to sugar coat it into some sort of health benefit. Getting trashed isn't healthy, period

Every study, and also promotional articles published by breweries or wine maker emphasize on the fact that alcohol in small amounts, one beer or one glass of wine, is healthy, and the more isn't better.

So I don't think there is any sugar coating, and no connection with "getting trashed".

Even alcohol producers say that drinking too much alcohol is dangerous.

I don't think anyone here tried to imply that the positive effects outweigh the danger of drinking too much too often.

 

[Liesje]

Every study, and also promotional articles published by breweries or wine maker emphasize on the fact that alcohol in small amounts, one beer or one glass of wine, is healthy, and the more isn't better.

Obviously the promo materials published by alcohol distributors are going to play into the "health benefits" of drinking. Either way, I was talking about fun being a direct benefit of social drinking. I'm well aware of the studies regarding drinking red wine, etc. I have a drink once or twice a week myself and don't think anything of it one way or the other. My point was that fun isn't really a "benefit" of alcohol when fun can also be a benefit of not drinking alcohol. Anyone can have fun with or without alcohol. Saying that fun is a benefit of drinking to get drunk is sugar coating it, IMO. Sure it's fun to drink and even get trashed, I'm not going to argue that, but that's not beneficial.

 

[najeena]

My Mom gave us a very small amount of alcohol as a treat on holidays and such when I was younger, she didn't see anything wrong with it. It's too bad she couldn't see into the future, her death from it and my fifteen year struggle to climb out of the bottle. I believe it's genetic, that I was fated to addiction from the first taste. Those kids who binge drink should take a look at their family history and the risk they're taking. Not that they care, I sure didn't. It nearly cost me my life.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I can't write a great presentation unless i've had a few scotches, it helps streamline ideas; if one comprehends them while slightly inebriated then a sober audience is bound to get it. I correct any minor mistakes later but it works very well for me, also along with other psychoactive drugs one can get a better response to music, literature etc.

Haha, yeah. I got an HD once for final assessment written under the influence of you don't want to know what. Good times. But I was an art student in those days. Ah, back in my day.


Alcoholism aside, the pressing lesson for teens is responsibility. It's why they drink til they are taken to ER, it's why they wrap themselves around telegraph poles from reckless driving, it's why they can take enough speed to last the entire weekend and still get up on Monday. Some teens just take a shitfully long time to learn responsible play. Some don't. Some drive sensibly from the start and drink til they are merrily relaxed. Some kill themselves and others because fate took them before they could learn self control from responsibility.