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Old 04-26-2003, 02:23 PM   #1
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Are there 'good weapons of mass destruction and bad ones?

I don't think this thread should be about Iraq or Israel. I'd like to talk about the credibility of our western governments, not only about the US government.

To kick of the discussion here's a statement from Stings favourite Weapon inspectur Buttler.

Quote:
Butler accuses US of nuclear hypocrisy

By Gerard Noonan, Education Editor
October 3 2002


The former chief weapons inspector in Iraq Richard Butler has lashed out at United States "double standards", saying even educated Americans were deaf to arguments about the hypocrisy of their stance on nuclear weapons.

Mr Butler, an Australian, told a seminar at the University of Sydney's Centre for Peace and Conflict Studies that Americans did not appreciate they could not claim a right to possess nuclear weapons but deny it to other nations.

"My attempts to have Americans enter into discussions about double standards have been an abject failure - even with highly educated and engaged people," Mr Butler said. "I sometimes felt I was speaking to them in Martian, so deep is their inability to understand."

Mr Butler's comments to the seminar, held on September21, are reported in the university's latest newsletter.

"What America totally fails to understand is that their weapons of mass destruction are just as much a problem as are those of Iraq," he said, adding that Hollywood storylines fuelled such attitudes.

Mr Butler said the horror of September 11 had only entrenched the idea in Americans that there are 'good weapons of mass destruction and bad ones'.

Mr Butler, who headed the United Nations weapons inspection team in Iraq in the early 1990s, is a former Australian ambassador for disarmament.

Earlier, delivering the university's Templeton Lecture, Mr Butler said one of the most difficult times with the Iraqi regime had been dealing with this issue of inconsistency.

"Amongst my toughest moments in Baghdad were when the Iraqis demanded that I explain why they should be hounded for their weapons of mass destruction when, just down the road, Israel was not, even though it was known to possess some 200 nuclear weapons," he said.

"I confess, too, that I flinch when I hear American, British and French fulminations against weapons of mass destruction, ignoring the fact that they are the proud owners of massive quantities of those weapons, unapologetically insisting that they are essential for their national security, and will remain so."

Mr Butler said that manifest unfairness - double standards - produced a situation "that was deeply, inherently unstable".

"This is because human beings will not swallow such unfairness. This principle is as certain as the basic laws of physics itself."

Mr Butler said one problem encountered in Iraq was that materials and technologies employed in making a chemical or biological weapon were identical to those used in a range of benign products for medical, industrial or agricultural use.

The UN Security Council's decision in 1991 to destroy, remove or render harmless Iraq's weapons of mass destruction was unique and far-reaching, far tougher than past attempts to disarm defeated countries like Germany and Japan.
I guess Buttler has a good point that our double standards (good and evil dictators, good and evil WMDs create a credibility gap.
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Old 04-30-2003, 05:26 AM   #2
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Only USA has good ones,...ore are preparing to make good ones,..



http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...946260,00.html
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Old 04-30-2003, 05:34 AM   #3
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There are no good WMDs, there are no bad WMDs. A WMD in the hands of a bad man is a bad thing. A WMD in the hands of a good man is no threat to anyone, except bad people.
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Old 04-30-2003, 06:03 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen
There are no good WMDs, there are no bad WMDs. A WMD in the hands of a bad man is a bad thing. A WMD in the hands of a good man is no threat to anyone, except bad people.
So everyone should have some to protect themself,..
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Old 04-30-2003, 06:13 AM   #5
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Rono:

can you defend your country using WMDs?
Imagine throwing a a-bomb at terrorists in Washington or defending a invasion of New York with Chemical weapons - if you use them for defense you kill / destroy your own land so it seems to mee that the WMDs are for attack or revenge only.

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Old 04-30-2003, 09:12 AM   #6
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While I agree with you completely Diemen, it is also true that no one should really have them. But that brings up the protection of your country argument, which goes back to the untrustworthy people who have them, which kinda makes a circle....nevermind!
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Old 04-30-2003, 09:19 AM   #7
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a WMD in anyone's hand is a bad thing...why is there good people and bad people with WMD...I dont get it.

Dont you have to look at what the WMD symbolizes. Why does it matter what type of person has it..

For any one individual, coutnry, state, goverment or what have you, to have a WMD is to give an ungodly sense of power...power to provoke..power to destroy...and it is that power that is bad..doesnt matter how good the person is who controls that destiny..power corrupts...just my .02
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Old 04-30-2003, 10:14 AM   #8
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There are no good weapons of mass destruction, no matter who's hands they are in. WMD are not used for defense they are used for offence. They are used for revenge and to destroy as much as possible(given the name). If the world were to disarm as a whole I think it would force nations to fight in a much different way. It would force wars to be fought in a dirtier fashion. I don't think it would be as easy for us to jump into the idea of war and would probably come closer to eliminating the chance of a third world war. The hipocracy and arrogance that the US has in this manner, sickens me. This mentality that WMD are only good when they are in the hands of the US or their allies is probably one of the most ignorant ideas I've ever heard. The arms race has put us in a very scary and difficult position.

If anyone hasn't seen it yet, you should check out the program "Approaching Armeggedon", it was on last week, I don't know if it will air again, but it's very enlightening.
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Old 04-30-2003, 10:36 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
There are no good weapons of mass destruction, no matter who's hands they are in. WMD are not used for defense they are used for offence. They are used for revenge and to destroy as much as possible(given the name). If the world were to disarm as a whole I think it would force nations to fight in a much different way. It would force wars to be fought in a dirtier fashion. I don't think it would be as easy for us to jump into the idea of war and would probably come closer to eliminating the chance of a third world war. The hipocracy and arrogance that the US has in this manner, sickens me. This mentality that WMD are only good when they are in the hands of the US or their allies is probably one of the most ignorant ideas I've ever heard. The arms race has put us in a very scary and difficult position.
The last 50 years has proven this wrong. WMD were held for defensive purposes, keeping us from a third world war (two in less than 25 years was enough). The arms race, as it was once known, is essentially over. The number of active WMD has gone down significantly. Bomb shelters of the '50s are now interesting relics.

The original statement that "American WMD are as much a problem as those of Iraq" is just plain ignorant and unsubstantiated.
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Old 04-30-2003, 10:53 AM   #10
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nbcrusader, how do you see them as different? Ie, not being as much of a problem? As a guess, I'd assume you are meaning that America is not the threat that Iraq and various others could prove or have been proven to be. Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyways, isn't that a bit of a point anyway? Who's perceived threat do we go by?




** As a reminder, if we can please keep this away from Iraq and the present situation as much as possible**
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Old 04-30-2003, 11:05 AM   #11
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Quote:
The last 50 years has proven this wrong. WMD were held for defensive purposes, keeping us from a third world war (two in less than 25 years was enough). The arms race, as it was once known, is essentially over. The number of active WMD has gone down significantly. Bomb shelters of the '50s are now interesting relics.
Please explain this to me? We have the power to eliminate small countries from the face of the earth. How is this a good thing? How is holding WMD a defensive move? Why, because we can just threaten them by holding a big stick? Even if we never do launch them, and remember we are the only nation that actually has, there are other dangers in just pocessing them. Please try and explain to me how this is a good thing.
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Old 04-30-2003, 03:07 PM   #12
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nbcrusader - aren't you a bit biased to judge if you are good or bad? let somebody else make that decision
offcourse you don't see your WMD as a threat - only b/c you are not under that threat and those bombs will not fall on your roof - ask Iraqi eople what they think about it...

and by the way - how do you defend your country using cluster bombs in Iraq - the weapon banned by the geneva convention
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Old 04-30-2003, 04:43 PM   #13
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Heh, I was just using the Charlton Heston quote that U2 used before Bullet The Blue Sky in the Elevation shows (with "WMDs" replacing "guns"). I don't actually quite believe it.
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Old 04-30-2003, 05:00 PM   #14
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Diemen - I got that, but I have to admit only after I read it for second time...
it had some familiar ring
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Old 04-30-2003, 06:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Please explain this to me? We have the power to eliminate small countries from the face of the earth. How is this a good thing? How is holding WMD a defensive move? Why, because we can just threaten them by holding a big stick? Even if we never do launch them, and remember we are the only nation that actually has, there are other dangers in just pocessing them. Please try and explain to me how this is a good thing.
Fifty-eight years without a world war is a good starting place.

Is the world at perfect peace? No
Will the world ever be at perfect peace? Not this world.
Does holding a big stick keep those with smaller sticks from attacking? Yes. (I realize things like 9/11 will happen, but no country has threatened the US)

The peace you and I enjoy in this country has been preserved, in part, by the military arsenal of this country. Every American under 45 has lived without direct threat attack or risk of mandatory military service. Not everyone has the luxury of such peace.

Back to the author's original premise: American WMDs are as much a problem as those of Iraq. Going beyond the statement that "weapons are bad", how does the author substantiate this statement?
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Old 04-30-2003, 08:39 PM   #16
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Part of the reason this thread was started was because there are some that feel that there it is hypicritical of the USA to have Nuclear weapons while at the same ensure that Iraq is disarmed.

The reason Iraq was disarmed was not simply because of its possession of WMD, but because of its behavior and violations which including invading and attacking 4 countries in the region in a small space of time without any legitamite provication.

The primary reason this USA has nuclear weapons is to deter the use of nuclear weapons, or other WMD. Deterence helped to prevent World War III which potentially could have led to the destruction of the planet or Soviet domination of the world.

Since the Cold War, the USA has substantially reduced its Nuclear force. Within 10 years, the USA will have less than 3,000 Nuclear War heads. Thats down from a Cold War high of over 20,000 Nuclear Weapons. In addition, the US military no longer has Chemical or Biological weapons. No other country in the world has reduced its stockpiles of WMD to the percentage degree that the USA has.

People here have said that the behavior of the country does not matter when it comes to WMD, which is nonsense. Behavior does matter. The USA's wise use and development of Nuclear Weapons have saved an uncountable number of lives.

The USA will continue to maintain its nuclear deterent at some level until the means of verfication and detection improve to such a degree that total disarmament is not a threat to national security.
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Old 05-01-2003, 03:47 AM   #17
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We meet again in short time
Please can you tell me what do you think about US using weapons that are baned by geneve convention (cluster bombs)?

Another thing - why did you decide to eliminate Sadam and 'free' Iraqi people right now? why didn't the world finish it 10 yrs ago when Iraqi people expected it, wanted it and than a lot of them died when you failed to fullfil your promises?

Deterance - who was the first on with A-bomb? We are talkin here about chicken and egg. If nobody made a-bomb than there would be no need for deternace... how do you know that it was you detering the soviets and not the another way around... What I'm saying is that if there was no big arms bildup there would be no need for deterance - which leeds to further arms bildup which leads........

PLEASE tell me do you realy think that US government has honest and rightfull intentions? I would realy like to know. And if you do, tell me why is there no action against some countries in South America, Africa, China, S. Korea, AND ESPECIALY Israel! How do you explain your close connection with country which invented the term 'terorist' by practising it (sp? sory), and where the civil freedoms (especilay if you are a muslim) are totaly neglected...

please give me you views on those subjects...
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Old 05-01-2003, 10:17 AM   #18
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Marko, well done.

Sting and Nbcrusader,
I realize everything you are saying. Yes I know the arms race is over, and yes I know that we have disarmed a large percentage of our nukes. But this is no reason to praise the US, we had the largest quantity, and Russia has disarmed a large percentage as well, in fact the US has used Russia's disarmed weapons to power cities here in the states.

But as Marko pointed out, if it wasn't for the arms race, we wouldn't be in the situation we are now. And by your logic because US holds the largest stick, we are the ones to determine who can and cannot have these weapons. So now we are the moral police to determine who will be a danger and who will not, and we will enforce this logic with a large arsenal of weapons?! So when the US gets their way, using your logic, the only ones that will be able to poccess these WMDs will be the US and their allies. So then what's the point? If only a group of friends have the sticks either they will bully the guys without them, the sticks will be obtained from the guys who don't have but want the sticks, or they will start turning on each other. I'm saying everyone put down their sticks and quit feeding me this defense crap.
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Old 05-01-2003, 02:03 PM   #19
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Marko,

Hello! Thank you for your interesting questions.

"Please can you tell me what do you think about US using weapons that are baned by geneve convention (cluster bombs)?"

I don't see why the geneva convention would ban the use of cluster bombs. They are effective weapons against enemy infantry in the open. There is a lot of protest about them because some of the small bombs fail to detonate and later detonate when a civilian tries to tamper with it or a soldier tries to ensure it is deactivated.

But cluster bombs are not the only explosives that fail to sometimes detonate. There have been 2,000 pound bombs that have failed to detonate or a shell fired from a tank. Unexploded ordanance is a problem with any "battlefield". Cluster bombs are not the only bombs that sometimes fail to detonate. There for, I see no reason compared to other weapons, under which they should be banned.

"Another thing - why did you decide to eliminate Sadam and 'free' Iraqi people right now? why didn't the world finish it 10 yrs ago when Iraqi people expected it, wanted it and than a lot of them died when you failed to fullfil your promises?"

It is easy to forget the context under which the first Gulf War happened. Many Americans in the US congress did not want to use military force to push Iraq out of Kuwait, let alone go into Iraq and take out Saddam. They wanted to use Sanctions to get Iraq out of Kuwait.

George Bush Sr. in 1990/1991 realized Sanctions would not work and that military force would be required to remove the Iraqi Military from Kuwait. George Bush Sr. was able to assemble a large coalition to do this. But it was difficult to get the world and US public opinion to support the war effort that was required to remove the Iraqi Military from Kuwait. In the end Bush succeeded in getting the approval he needed to do just that. But because it was so difficult to get the support to remove Iraq from Kuwait with force, it was essentially impossible to get the support needed for overthrowing Saddam and occupying Iraq until a stable democracy could be formed. George Bush Sr. did what was politically possible in 1991.

In addition, after the war, Saddam's defeat and the destruction to his military had been so large, many felt it Saddam would not last much longer. In addition, it was strongly believed that the UN inspector would be able to disarm Saddam peacefully. The Sanctions remained in place and it was thought this could indeed prevent foreign supply and aid to Saddam. It was believed that despite it not being politically possible at the time to overthrow Saddam, that a strategy of containment would keep Saddam in a box he could not get out of until he fell from within.

The reality is that Containment weakened over the years. Countries bordering Iraq made a fortune from blackmarket smuggling. UN weapons inspectors only found and disarmed WMD that Saddam allowed them to. Saddam had no intention of fully cooperating. Saddam was also starting to make money despite sanctions. It was also found that Saddams internal security force was way to powerful for their ever to be a successful coup without foreign troops helping.

Saddam soon got inspectors removed from the country. He still had WMD that had not been destroyed and was now free to produce more. This was in 1998. Because of the failure of Sanctions, Inspections, and other elements of the containment policy against Saddam since 1991, and in light of the ability of international terrorist to strike the USA mainland on 9/11, it was felt that the USA and world could no longer afford to have Saddam in power or at least armed with a growing number of WMDs and potentially soon, nuclear weapons.

Invasion of Iraq in 2003 was chosen because in light of past events, it was the only effective way to ensure that Saddam was disarmed of his WMD capability. The failure of the containment regime around Saddam for the past 12 years and the experience of 9/11 made it politically possible in the USA to finally do this.




"Deterance - who was the first on with A-bomb? We are talkin here about chicken and egg. If nobody made a-bomb than there would be no need for deternace... how do you know that it was you detering the soviets and not the another way around... What I'm saying is that if there was no big arms bildup there would be no need for deterance - which leeds to further arms bildup which leads........"

The USA! Why did the USA build the A-bomb? The USA started to develop the A-bomb in the 1930s because the Germans already had a program that was well under way. The USA succeeded in its development process and went way ahead of the Germans. Having a fully developed A-Bomb in 1945, it was used against Japan to force a quick surrender, there by saving millions of Japanese lives.

In the years between 1945 and the first Berlin Crises(I think 1948) the USA only had two nuclear weapons. During that first Berlin Crises though, the USA flew hundreds of the type of Bombers that had dropped the A-Bomb on Japan to Germany. This convinced the Soviets that the USA had hundreds of nuclear weapons. The Soviets backed down and did not invade Western Europe. A perfect example of deterence preventing Soviet Aggression.

Deterence involves preventing another person from taking a certain course of action. Deterence did not just involve detering a Soviet nuclear attack on the USA. It was actually more appropriate to the term in regards to preventing a Soviet Conventional invasion of Western Europe.

We know it was the USA detering the Soviets and not the other way around, because of the unbelievable large military force that the Soviets maintained in Eastern Europe. These forces were very "Tank Heavy" and had lots of logistical supplies and support necessary for a Soviet invasion of Western Europe. Tank or Armored divisions in the numbers the Soviets had them, were far more than what was required to defend against any NATO attack on western Europe. In fact, in the early years, the mis-match between NATO conventional forces and Warsaw Pact conventional forces was so extreme, that only NATO's use of nuclear weapons would stop a Soviet led, Warsaw Pact invasion of Western Europe. The Soviets also had lots of bridging equipment that would be useless for defending Eastern Europe. The only reason to have such large amounts of this equipment would be for offensive operations into Western Europe in which bridging Equipment would be needed to get across rivers where NATO had destroyed all the bridges across in an attempt to stop or slow the Soviet advance. The Soviets unlike most countries never really disarmed from World War II. The Soviet Union maintained the worlds largest military force from 1945 to 1991.

During the early years of the Cold War, US nuclear Weapons were a deterent to a Soviet Conventional attack on Europe. In the later years of the Cold War when the Soviet Union had the ability to target the US mainland with Nuclear Weapons, US Nuclear Weapons became only a deterent against Soviet Unions use of such weapons. Using Nuclear weapons in response to a Soviet Conventional attack on Western Europe was no longer a possible deterent given a potential nuclear response to the USA mainland. The USA and NATO had to strenthen their conventional defenses of Western Europe in order to deter a Soviet Attack. US Nuclear Weapons now were only a deterent to Soviet Nuclear Weapons since the Soviets had achieved Nuclear Parity with the USA. Strangely, the Soviets achievement of Nuclear Parity with the USA, actually made a conventional war in Europe much more likely than before.

The ultimate answer to your question is that it is true that there would be no big arms build up if no one starting arming themselves to such a degree as to be a threat to someone else. It was Hitler that started the A-Bomb development in addition to building up his military and launching World War II. The USA in the 1930s had a tiny military. The Soviets were already developing a large military for Stalins aggresive plans. The Soviets maintained the large military they had built during World War II whent he war was over. They did not disarm and in fact continued to develop and field a huge inventory of conventional weapons and later nuclear weapons. It is the Germans and soon after the Soviets arms build ups and potential threat to global security that forced the USA to build up its military to prevent the attack that would of happened without such a build up.

"PLEASE tell me do you realy think that US government has honest and rightfull intentions? I would realy like to know. And if you do, tell me why is there no action against some countries in South America, Africa, China, S. Korea, AND ESPECIALY Israel! How do you explain your close connection with country which invented the term 'terorist' by practising it (sp? sory), and where the civil freedoms (especilay if you are a muslim) are totaly neglected... "

The US government has very honest legitamite intentions. It is the goal of the US government to provide security around the world to prevent any major disruption of the global economy. It is also the goal of the US government to increase free trade, economic development, and democracy through out the world, because a more democratic, less impoverished world, is a world that is safer to live in and less likely to experience war.

But the USA does not have infinite resources and cannot engage and solve every civil war or overthrow every single dicator on the planet. The USA reserves its resources for those dictators and wars that threaten US national and global security. After that there may be resources left over to help out in area's who's problems do not necessarily threaten US or global security, but not all of them.

In regards to US action against certain regions or countries. In South America, there is no serious US military action because the region is relatively stable compared to many other parts of the world. There is poverty and the drug trade, but the answer to many of these problems is a non-military one. There is no large military threat like, Iraq in South America. The military's of most South American countries are comparitively small to those in Asia, Europe and. Major war between countries in South America is rare to non-existent.

In Africa, there are many problems do to widespread poverty. Like South America though, most countries in Africa do not have well armed military's like those in Europe and Asia. The ability of any one country to occupy and annex another is rather limited. In addition, most of Africa is isolated from the world economy because of the lack of a developed market. There for, the civil wars and politically instability there normaly do not upset the global economy. This is why intervention in Africa is rather limited.

China although a potential threat to most of Asia has essentially been detered from taking major military action for nearly 50 years(with the 1979 invasion of Vietnam being the exception). China is not a democracy and there are human rights abuses in China. China has not engaged in actions like Iraq has that would require its regime to be changed from an international security and law perspective. While bringing democracy to China would be a great thing, it would require a military invasion that would be so costly and would outweigh the potential benefit. Consider also that China continues to develop a capitalist economy. There is less and less State intervention in the economy. There are also more political freedoms in China than say 20 or 30 years ago. I'd say by 2030 there will be democracy in China. There is currently no need to engage china from a military perspective, because China is not doing anything that would warrent such a response. Democracy and human rights will gradually come to china over the next few decades as China becomes more intertwined with the global economy and the governments power decreases relative to business and individual economic power.

S. Korea?!?! I think you mean North Korea. In the case of North Korea, the USA has not acted there because North Korea is not in violation of any resolutions passed under chapter VII rules, has not invaded any countries in over 50 years. Its large military, especially large inventory of 11,000 artillery pieces is a huge concern. Seoul, the capital of the South, is within 30 miles of the border with the North and in range of much of this artillery. Any US military operation to overthrow or disarm North Korea would do so in the context of hundreds of thousands of shells landing on Seoul. While the US military could eventially destroy most of this artillery, they could not do so before hundreds of Thousands of people in Seoul had been killed. This unique situation, where such a large city is in range of so much artillery, is not seen anywhere else in the world.

Now North Korea has nuclear weapons which makes any military operation against the North Korea even less likely now. North Korea could kill millions of South Korean and Japanese citizens in response to a US invasion to disarm the country and overthrow the government. The USA does not act with the military because the cost of doing so is currently much greater than the costs of containment.

But one should remember that North Korea's behavior is less threatening than most other countries do to the fact that the country has only invaded one country in its history and that was over 50 years ago. North Korea has successfully detered the possibility of US military action for decades. Now with Nuclear Weapons, this deterent capability has only increased. But there is essentially no reason for a US military attack on North Korea because the North's behavior in regards to international relations has not been very threatening for the past 50 years. This plus, North Korea's huge military and nuclear capability are the obvious reasons why the USA will seek to solve its problems diplomaticly through regional discussions with the North Korea and countries in the region.

Israel is a country that has been a victim of Arab aggression for over 55 years now. The USA would not act against Israel, one of the few countries in the world where Arabs are allowed to vote.(I don't mean Arabs in the occupied territories, but in Israel itself)
The USA helps Israel defend itself from the Arab countries that have refused to recognize Israel's right to exist and have invaded the country in multiple wars.

It is difficult for me to understand why anyone would consider overthrowing one of the few democracies in the Middle East. Israel has a very complicated task in defending itself and its population. Israel is not in violation of any UN resolution passed under Chapter VII rules. Iraq was in violation of 17 UN resolutions passed under Chapter VII rules. Only resolutions passed under Chapter VII rules, are member states allowed to use military force to bring about their compliance. Resolutions passed under Chapter VII rules are the most serious which is why they allow for the use of military force.

The Israely/Palestinian problem will only be solved when Palestinians develop a policy of non-violent action and recognize Israels right ot exist. There also must be a regional negotiation and recognition by all Arab governments in the region of Israel's right to exist. These things are necessary for there to be peace.
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Old 05-01-2003, 02:17 PM   #20
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Bonovoxsuperstar,

"But as Marko pointed out, if it wasn't for the arms race, we wouldn't be in the situation we are now. And by your logic because US holds the largest stick, we are the ones to determine who can and cannot have these weapons. So now we are the moral police to determine who will be a danger and who will not, and we will enforce this logic with a large arsenal of weapons?! So when the US gets their way, using your logic, the only ones that will be able to poccess these WMDs will be the US and their allies. So then what's the point? If only a group of friends have the sticks either they will bully the guys without them, the sticks will be obtained from the guys who don't have but want the sticks, or they will start turning on each other. I'm saying everyone put down their sticks and quit feeding me this defense crap."

The problem with your logic is that you presume that all countries have been equel in their actions from a moral and legal standpoint. This is false just as it is false that your actions and morality are equal to those of an inmate at the nearest prison to where you live.

It is because the USA currently holds the biggest stick that democracy is on the rise and regions vital to the global economy are not disrupted or invaded by dictators. The USA and its allies have their military's to defend their economic, political, and physical security. They have every right to do this.

Inmates at prison don't have weapons for obvious reasons. Its not wise also to allow violent offenders now out of jail to be able to purchase a weapon. Behavior is what matters rather than who is armed and who is not. The USA has every right to determine that when the USA's security is threatened or comprised by the actions of another country.
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