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Old 05-16-2002, 09:52 AM   #21
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Originally posted by gabrielvox:
I wouldn't argue with it at all speedracer, I would agree that it is all the more evidence that the system is not serving minorities well and that it needs major overhaul from Kindergarten on up. Unfortunately, all things are not currently equal and so those who are a product of this flawed system need to be given a proper chance.
This is what Iíve heard most of my African-American friends say when we discuss this topic. And Iím inclined to agree. There is such a thing as Ďwhite privilegeí and many times it is a very subtle thing that those of us in the majority never see or have cause to worry about. For example, take myself and my good friend Rick. I grew up in a middle-class white family, both my parents went to higher education, and the assumption within our family and our peers was that one went to college. It was just a given. I was praised when I did well in school, encouraged to take classes that were difficult, and given a good environment in which to do my homework. To sum it up; the odds were strongly in my favor. Contrast this with my friend Rick. He grew up in the inner-city of Chicago. Because his parents had split, he lived with his grandmother and had to dodge gangs and occasional shootings to and from school. Value wasnít placed on doing well in school and he had to resist the peer pressure to become involved in violence and drugs. And yet somehow he managed to get through it and ended up at the same private college that I did, but on a very large scholarship due to the fact that he is black. Do I resent the fact that I paid more for the same education as he did? Not at all. It may not be ďfairĒ but I feel that itís in the best interest of all of us to foster diversity especially in a place like my small school which has been and still is predominantly made up of white middle/upper class evangelical Christians. Not to mention that Rick now has the chance to not be just another statistic. He has a chance at a better life than the rest of his family and has the chance to positively impact others. And maybe when he has a family, he will be able to give his children the gifts that my parents gave me, and little by little the playing field will become more level.

I donít know. Like I said, itís not a perfect system, but I feel that our fate as a nation is bound up in how well we will conquer the insidious disease of racism. Itís a critical issue that deserves our attention and needs to be solved in whatever way we can go about it.
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Old 05-16-2002, 10:04 AM   #22
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
This is what Iíve heard most of my African-American friends say when we discuss this topic. And Iím inclined to agree. There is such a thing as Ďwhite privilegeí and many times it is a very subtle thing that those of us in the majority never see or have cause to worry about. For example, take myself and my good friend Rick. I grew up in a middle-class white family, both my parents went to higher education, and the assumption within our family and our peers was that one went to college. It was just a given. I was praised when I did well in school, encouraged to take classes that were difficult, and given a good environment in which to do my homework. To sum it up; the odds were strongly in my favor. Contrast this with my friend Rick. He grew up in the inner-city of Chicago. Because his parents had split, he lived with his grandmother and had to dodge gangs and occasional shootings to and from school. Value wasnít placed on doing well in school and he had to resist the peer pressure to become involved in violence and drugs. And yet somehow he managed to get through it and ended up at the same private college that I did, but on a very large scholarship due to the fact that he is black. Do I resent the fact that I paid more for the same education as he did? Not at all. It may not be ďfairĒ but I feel that itís in the best interest of all of us to foster diversity especially in a place like my small school which has been and still is predominantly made up of white middle/upper class evangelical Christians. Not to mention that Rick now has the chance to not be just another statistic. He has a chance at a better life than the rest of his family and has the chance to positively impact others. And maybe when he has a family, he will be able to give his children the gifts that my parents gave me, and little by little the playing field will become more level.

I donít know. Like I said, itís not a perfect system, but I feel that our fate as a nation is bound up in how well we will conquer the insidious disease of racism. Itís a critical issue that deserves our attention and needs to be solved in whatever way we can go about it.
Excellent points Sula, I applaud you for seeing what sometimes gets overlooked. Rarely do we hear the success stories of black achievers who have overcome great obstacles. Thanks for sharing this.

I just also want to add that many of the horrific conditions that Rick has had to endure to pursue his dreams have been linked to a lack of positive role models for minority children. People like Rick can break the cycle, as when they graduate and hold professions, assuming thats what may happen, younger children of their race can have someone to look up to and they can be in a position to positively mentor these ones. It doesn't happen overnight tho, and while the shift may be gradual, its one that is absolutely necessary.

As for white students being cheated out of a chance or passed over, keep in perspective that nationwide there is still a far greater proportion of minority students who suffer from this than white students. Regardless of whether we see it or want to acknowledge it, white privilege is very much alive and well.


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Old 05-16-2002, 10:18 AM   #23
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Originally posted by gabrielvox:
I wouldn't argue with it at all speedracer, I would agree that it is all the more evidence that the system is not serving minorities well and that it needs major overhaul from Kindergarten on up. Unfortunately, all things are not currently equal and so those who are a product of this flawed system need to be given a proper chance.

How would you overhaul the system from Kindergarten on up?

Personally, I think that we should give up the worst inner-city schools for dead and start shipping these kids to assorted higher-quality public schools. The more troublesome inner-city kids won't be as big a problem if they're not in control of the school.

I don't know a whole lot about inner-city schools in general, but I have a friend who's been teaching in one this year, and she tells me that all her best intentions and efforts to help these kids out have gone for naught because she can't keep them in their seats.
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Old 05-16-2002, 10:35 AM   #24
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Alright 80s, lets break it down to its lowest form. I am hurt. I am deeply hurt and I ask you to answer this question then:
Can you or can you not accept me as your brother in Christ because I don't believe that my Lord, my Shepherd, my Savior, the one who gave Himself to me so that I may approach His Father, and the one to whom I bow as humble servant as He takes his place as my King at the right hand of His Father, Jah, Jehovah, Yahweh, et al, that He is not Himself God?
Because in those other heated battles you refer to, your answer to that question was hurtful.
I felt like my faith was under attack, and its a vital part of my existence, so I fought back wrongly and hurtfully.
I humbly retract those things as I realize I was lashing out hurtingly. I'm sorry.
[This message has been edited by gabrielvox (edited 05-15-2002).]
As you know, I had said I wouldn't respond to anything you wrote from here on out. But I've changed my mind, because I don't wanna leave you hanging.
First, I forgive you. I'd forgive you whether you apologized or not, but thanks a lot for the apology.
Secondly, I am, of course, not the master of your relationship with God. That is between you and Him. However, if you are asking if my thoughts have changed on the subject, I'm afraid the answer is no. I don't want to get off the subject of the topic, but I need to explain why I believe that the belief that Christ is God is so vital to one being a Christian.
1)I believe that there are many instances in the Bible in which Christ and others say that Christ was God. To take that away form Him, I believe, is denying something very important about Him. Deity is a very important aspect of Christ.
2)Would the death of a man be able to save us from our sins? I don't believe so.
3)Could a man who was not God have been able to resist every single temptation that came his way for his entire 33 year life? I don't believe so.

So now you know why it is so important to me. I honestly can't say that I consider someone who denies the deity of Christ to be a Christian. I have to be honest about that -I can't lie to you and tell you i think everything is fine.
But please don't get upset that I differ from you on this. There are many different ideas on this forum about this and many other subjects. I share the Gospel with people because I believe with my whole heart it is true and good, but I don't think that a person who disagrees with me is any less of a person, or that I am "better" than anyone who disagrees with me.
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Old 05-16-2002, 10:40 AM   #25
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Originally posted by gabrielvox:

As for white students being cheated out of a chance or passed over, keep in perspective that nationwide there is still a far greater proportion of minority students who suffer from this than white students. Regardless of whether we see it or want to acknowledge it, white privilege is very much alive and well.
I'm happy for Rick, but I just don't agree that "privileged whites" (or "privileged Asians", for that matter) should be displaced from top schools in this manner. It almost seems as if they're being forced to pay reparations. Why should incoming non-minority freshmen (or incoming non-minority med/law/grad school students) be forced to bear such a burden by themselves?

The plight of blacks and other minorities in this country is a societal problem and any solution requires participation from all members of society, not just students who are being volunteered to give up their spots at certain colleges/professional schools/jobs.

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 05-16-2002).]
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Old 05-16-2002, 11:54 AM   #26
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Im sorry 80s, but according to the bible and what Christ taught us, that is neither the Christian answer nor the one I had hoped you would somehow see. Its not about whether you have to compromise your own beliefs. Its about whether or not you can accept me and respect me as your brother in Christ, because I do firmly believe in His ransom sacrifice and my salvation.

As I mentioned before, the big difference is that I believe you can believe Christ to be God and still be saved. You however steadfastly refuse to grant me the same grace with my beliefs.

And again you use your reply as a springboard to restate your intolerant opinion. You mentioned that you feel its admirable that you have held back from responding to other topics I have commented on. Is it your personal obligation or mission as a Christian to make sure we all believe as you do? You really don't have to tell me everything is just fine, you simply have to love me and accept me as your Christian brother. That was the second half of the greatest commandment Jesus gave us, as you will recall.

In closing Im just going to paraphrase some scripture that I have been reflecting on in the past few days:

'..to the extent that you did it to the least of my brothers, you did it to me..'

'..the one that stumbles another is worse than a person without faith and should tie around his neck a millstone and pitch himself into the sea..'

Not that I would like to see you do that, but just as you warned RavenStar quite graphically about his Satanism, ostensibly out of love for him, I warn you of the danger of an intolerant belief, out of Christian love for you.

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[This message has been edited by gabrielvox (edited 05-16-2002).]
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Old 05-16-2002, 12:08 PM   #27
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Originally posted by gabrielvox:
And again you use your reply as a springboard to restate your intolerant opinion. you simply have to love me and accept me as your Christian brother. That was the second half of the greatest commandment Jesus gave us, as you will recall.
I warn you of the danger of an intolerant belief, out of Christian love for you.
Gabriel
I'm sorry that you think I used it as a springboard. That was not my intention. I was simply explaining why I do not believe that someone who denies the diety of Christ is a Christian.
Also, the second half of the greatest commandment is that we love our neighbor as ourselves. I can certainly do that.
However, there is nothing in there about accepting people as Christian brothers. The deity of Christ is one of the most important issues that a person must decide on. If someone believes He is not God, and I believe He is, how can we say we are of the same faith? I'm sorry if you think my belief is intolerant, and thanks for the warning.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 05-16-2002).]
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Old 05-16-2002, 12:26 PM   #28
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I'm sorry that you think I used it as a springboard. That was not my intention. I was simply explaining why I do not believe that someone who denies the diety of Christ is a Christian.


yes, simply explaining it, *again*!...why do you keep stating this to me? I know your position on the matter. Is it for the benefit of others?

Quote:

However, there is nothing in there about accepting people as Christian brothers.
No, not in that exact passage, you are correct. I was more invoking the flavor of the entire Gospel. I should have been more clear there.

Quote:

The deity of Christ is one of the most important issues that a person must decide on.
No it isn't, you've made it to be. There is no scripture that says that to be saved as a Christian one must believe that Jesus is God. The requirements as stated in the Gospel do include repentance, a belief in His ransom sacrifice for our sins and works that show that belief.

Your opinion differs, that's fine. I just think we should just leave it to Jesus to decide if it is truly an admission prerequisite.

As I have made that point a number of times now, I am risking redundancy so with that I close my comments on the matter.


[This message has been edited by gabrielvox (edited 05-16-2002).]
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Old 05-16-2002, 11:12 PM   #29
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Originally posted by gabrielvox:
(((EDIT)))
Why did you edit out my question as to whether I am Catholic?

Well, to answer your question: No, I am not, but I recognize the Catholic Church as part of the Christian Church. As for me, I am a trinitarian, messianic United Methodist who believes in the priesthood of all believers. I do not consider Jesse Jackson to be some type of higher level Christian than anyone else.

Why is Jesse off-limits for criticism, yet you can use as your signature line Bono's "Bullet the Blue Sky"/RATTLE & HUM quote "well, the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"? In that quote (which I agree with), Bono is clearly challenging a rogue "reverend" televangelist!

Do you think "reverned" Jackson is some type of prophet who is not to be criticised? Due to his negativity, I can assure you he will never accomplish the things that REVEREND Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. or REVEREND Bishop Desmond Tute accomplished. Emphasis added because those are two "men of the cloth" whom I DO have reverent respect for.

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Old 05-17-2002, 08:07 AM   #30
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Bama don't get hot under the collar for nothing here, ok? I edited that comment when I reviewed my posts in this thread and reflected on just how hurtful they might be to peoples of certain religions. I also discovered that the other thread you mentioned was opened, and so edit my inappropriate comment there as well.

I really could care less what religion you are or whether you believe in the Trinity or not. As long as you are not worshipping Satan or denying Christ's Kingship over us, you'll probably make it. I just wanted to make sure I didnt re-offend any Catholics who might be reading, as Im quite sure they are aware of my opinion of that church from other threads.

Point taken on Rev. Jesse Jackson. However, I believe you both originally referred to the Rev. Martin Luther King as Dr., which of course he is as well. I think it's more respectful of his position in the community to refer to him as Rev. (MLK that is).
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Old 05-17-2002, 09:32 AM   #31
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I usually refer to Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. as Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. I do not recall referring to him as "Dr. Marin Luther King, Jr."

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Old 05-22-2002, 03:25 AM   #32
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Originally posted by gabrielvox:
There is no scripture that says that to be saved as a Christian one must believe that Jesus is God.
"...if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." --Romans 10:9

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Old 05-22-2002, 05:32 PM   #33
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Originally posted by MSU2mike:
"...if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." --Romans 10:9

Precisely my point.

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Old 05-23-2002, 04:47 AM   #34
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Seems to me that it directly refutes your idea that the Bible doesn't say anything about us believing Jesus is indeed God.
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Old 05-23-2002, 09:47 AM   #35
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Seems to me that it directly refutes your idea that the Bible doesn't say anything about us believing Jesus is indeed God.
What I believe Gabriel is trying to say (correct me if Iím wrong) is that on the basis of that verse alone, the language is not exclusive. Ēif you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." That says if you believe this, you will be saved, but it doesnít take the reverse and say ďif you donítĒ then you canít be saved. Is this what you mean, Gabriel?

Btw, Iím not agreeing with either of you here, Iím just trying to clarify the point.
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Old 05-23-2002, 01:22 PM   #36
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
What I believe Gabriel is trying to say (correct me if Iím wrong) is that on the basis of that verse alone, the language is not exclusive. Ēif you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." That says if you believe this, you will be saved, but it doesnít take the reverse and say ďif you donítĒ then you canít be saved. Is this what you mean, Gabriel?

Btw, Iím not agreeing with either of you here, Iím just trying to clarify the point.
That's what I thought as well. And that, frankly, is an enormous stretch.
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Old 05-23-2002, 01:54 PM   #37
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Would you say that confessing that Jesus is Lord (not "LORD")is the same as confessing that Jesus is God? I assume that Gabriel doesn't equate the two.
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Old 05-23-2002, 02:52 PM   #38
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This is quite clear to me:

"I and the Father are One."

-John 10:30 (The Word of the Lord, thanks be to God)

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Old 05-23-2002, 04:07 PM   #39
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Originally posted by U2Bama:
This is quite clear to me:
"I and the Father are One."
-John 10:30 (The Word of the Lord, thanks be to God)
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Bible verses that show Jesus is God

The scriptures used here are from the New American Standard Bible.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 5:18 - "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

John 8:24 - "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."
Note: In the Greek, "He" is not there.

John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"

Exodus 3:14 - "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ĎI AM has sent me to you.í"

John 10:30-33 - "I and the Father are one." 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

John 20:28 - "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Col. 2:9 - "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

Phil. 2:5-8 - "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Heb. 1:8 - "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."

Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."

Jesus is worshipped - Jesus said to worship God only, yet He receives worship.

Matt. 4:10 - "Then Jesus *said to him, 'Begone, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only."í"

Matt. 2:2 - "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him."

Matt. 2:11 - "And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."

Matt. 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly Godís Son!"

Matt. 28:9 - "And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."

John 9:35-38 - "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

Heb. 1:6 - "And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'"

Jesus is prayed to

Acts 7:55-60 - "But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 57But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears, and they rushed upon him with one impulse. 58And when they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him, and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" 60And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" And having said this, he fell asleep."

1 Cor. 1:1-2 - "Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours." (The phrase, "to call upon the name of the Lord" is a phrase used to designate prayer.)

1 Kings 18:24 - "Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord, and the God who answers by fire, He is God." And all the people answered and said, "That is a good idea."

Zech. 13:9 - "And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, ĎThey are My people,í and they will say, ĎThe Lord is my God.í"

Rom. 10:13-14 - "for 'whoever will call upon the name of the Lord' will be saved." 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?" (Paul is speaking of calling upon Jesus. (The phrase "Call upon the name of the Lord" is a quote from Joel 2:32).

Joel 2:32 - "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (LORD here is YHWH, the name of God as revealed in Exodus 3:14. Therefore, this quote, dealing with God Himself is attributed to Jesus.)

First and Last

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ĎI am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me."

Rev. 1:17 - "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."


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Old 05-23-2002, 04:33 PM   #40
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...and also:

"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel --which means, "God with us."

-Matthew 1:23

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