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Old 06-18-2002, 11:09 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by brettig
What melon said...oh and id also suggest to people, SHOP AROUND as much as you can...Ive been able to find places selling stuff perfectly legally but miles cheaper than anywhere else, little stores with lots of regular customers to keep them going.
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Old 06-18-2002, 11:55 PM   #22
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Originally posted by Lilly
hath ye a moral problem with bootlegs? or burning music cds? same diff imo.
Bootlegs are different than pirated stuff. Bootlegs are material which was never intended to be sold in the first place. Pirated stuff is a copy of the item that was sold. I expect to be paid for my work, and I expect to pay others for their work. No, I wouldn't buy a pirated copy of a cd, but I have no qualms about bootlegs.
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Old 06-19-2002, 12:56 AM   #23
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To all of those who have been dissing my initial reply to this thread, well it is all very well for you to have your opinions but let me ask you have you ever borrowed a tape, album or cd from a friend and recorded it???, have you ever taped a television show onto a videotape?? have you ever taped a song from the radio and do you have any mp3s on your computer?????? in my opinion this is all the same to some degree and like I said initially I would have no problem in paying for un-pirated software if it were cheaper, but hell no am I going to pay 500 bucks for office and add to Gates' empire when I can get a copy for free and sorry but I do see a difference in the notion of breaking into ones house and stealing all of their personal belongings compared to using pirated software, these are two very different forms of 'stealing' in my opinion and again just my two cents
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Old 06-19-2002, 01:24 AM   #24
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Originally posted by OzAurora
To all of those who have been dissing my initial reply to this thread, well it is all very well for you to have your opinions but let me ask you have you ever borrowed a tape, album or cd from a friend and recorded it???, have you ever taped a television show onto a videotape?? have you ever taped a song from the radio and do you have any mp3s on your computer??????
There is a bit of a difference between what you list here and what happens with Napster and its many clones: in the legal parlance, it's called "fair use." In reality, it comes down to sheer numbers.

Pirated software/music (particularly through file-sharing systems) does not reduce to "letting a friend copy an album" but letting 50,000 friends copy an album. The details matter: it's one thing to let a friend borrow an album (one copy used by several people), another to let a friend copy an album (several copies used by several), and quite another indeed to put the album on a file-sharing system (THOUSANDS of copies used by THOUSANDS).

The first clearly falls under fair use, the second probably does, the third most certainly does not.

In a strict sense, all three cases can be considered stealing, but the first two seem minor by comparison: misdeamenors instead of grand theft. I know of no reasonable individual who will say that the third case is no worse than the first two.

The third case is like buying a pay-per-view event and airing it in a football stadium. Any sensible individual can see it is THEFT.

Quote:
in my opinion this is all the same to some degree and like I said initially I would have no problem in paying for un-pirated software if it were cheaper, but hell no am I going to pay 500 bucks for office and add to Gates' empire when I can get a copy for free and sorry but I do see a difference in the notion of breaking into ones house and stealing all of their personal belongings compared to using pirated software, these are two very different forms of 'stealing' in my opinion and again just my two cents
If it were cheaper... if it were cheaper...

You know, if Ferrari's were cheaper, I'd consider buying one. As it is, I can't afford one, so - LIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD - I do without.

Frankly, I don't see where the differences between B+E (breaking and entering) and pirating software ACTUALLY matter. They're not two different forms of "stealing" (in quotes). They are two different froms of STEALING, THEFT, BURGALRY - both immoral, and in both cases impermissible.

Of course, you're probably not in the music industry or in the software industry (I AM in software, by the way), so what the fuck do you care? You don't get hurt, so it's not immoral, right?
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Old 06-19-2002, 08:37 AM   #25
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OzAurora... You've just been Bubba'd.

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Old 06-19-2002, 08:57 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
Of course, you're probably not in the music industry or in the software industry (I AM in software, by the way), so what the fuck do you care? You don't get hurt, so it's not immoral, right?
you are right bubba.

but she is in school. as i'm sure you're aware, but have not considered, school's require you to have certain facilities to carry out your work. though tuition and various fees are paid many schools do not provide such things as specific software, especially off campus to their students.

as i'm sure you're also aware many times the pressures of daily life for a student prevent the individual from spending all their time at school working on said project.

so the student is left with little choice.

it's deeper than the surface bubba. and yes it does suck for everybody. go bug the little kids ripping pc games.
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Old 06-19-2002, 10:54 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by kobayashi

as i'm sure you're also aware many times the pressures of daily life for a student prevent the individual from spending all their time at school working on said project.

Oh.. The Poor Student.. Many schools provide software on their 'Network' server or even have Computer Clusters for those who cannot afford computers..

Hahahah...
You have now made this thread into the good ol' medical ethics dilemma of the husband breaking into the Pharmacy to steal the drug his Wife needs to live through the night due to the fact that he is unable to pay for it. Sooo.. does that make stealing OK??? I refer you to Leon Mertensotto.

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Old 06-19-2002, 11:01 AM   #28
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Must play devil's advocate to the "concert bootlegs are okay by me" people.

Why do you suppose it is that tapers feel the need to sneak their equipment into shows, even shows by bands that are reportedly/allegedly "bootleg friendly," such as U2?

I suppose what I'm getting at is that the shared file issue is probably not as clear cut as we'd like to believe.
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Old 06-19-2002, 11:04 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite


Oh.. The Poor Student.. Many schools provide software on their 'Network' server or even have Computer Clusters for those who cannot afford computers..

Hahahah...
You have now made this thread into the good ol' medical ethics dilemma of the husband breaking into the Pharmacy to steal the drug his Wife needs to live through the night due to the fact that he is unable to pay for it. Sooo.. does that make stealing OK??? I refer you to Leon Mertensotto.

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i think you missed the point L. yes the schools provide software on their 'Network' as you call it but this is not accessible off campus of course because the logistics of that many licenses being issued are unfathomable. if i wanted to use SPSS 10.1 i would have to go to school but my father bought me a genuine copy and i also use it every day at work. i am lucky.

i never implied that any of this made stealing ok. the point is that in some cases the person doing the 'stealing' is under undue pressure also and everyone does what they need to do. if you can't afford the software are you going to perform poorly or facilitate a good mark?
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Old 06-19-2002, 11:48 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by kobayashi


i think you missed the point L. yes the schools provide software on their 'Network' as you call it but this is not accessible off campus of course because the logistics of that many licenses being issued are unfathomable.

Yes.. my statement does not apply to people out of school.. On Campus or Off Campus you can get into most Software Reservoirs that Schools have with just your student ID and password from any internet connection wherever one may be located.. Hence my ability to check my ND.Edu Email address even though I'm not "On Campus" anymores.. but this is just clarification maybe.. If it's irrelevant, then just ignore..

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Old 06-19-2002, 11:59 AM   #31
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Originally posted by Lemonite


Yes.. my statement does not apply to people out of school.. On Campus or Off Campus you can get into most Software Reservoirs that Schools have with just your student ID and password from any internet connection wherever one may be located.. Hence my ability to check my ND.Edu Email address even though I'm not "On Campus" anymores.. but this is just clarification maybe.. If it's irrelevant, then just ignore..

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certainly email applications are facilitated off campus but i've never heard of something like photoshop or spss being made available to students on an off campus basis. but i don't think ozaurora was referring to something so simplistic as email.
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Old 06-19-2002, 12:23 PM   #32
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Originally posted by kobayashi


certainly email applications are facilitated off campus but i've never heard of something like photoshop or spss being made available to students on an off campus basis. but i don't think ozaurora was referring to something so simplistic as email.
I don't know what Spss is.. And maybe this is not the norm.. but With a Student ID and Password (Being a Student) I am able to download from the Unversity things such as Virus Software (Norton.. MacAfee), PhotoShop, MS Office, Various Engineering Programs.. MatLab or whatever the hell else those guys use, and all kinds of other shit.. On Campus (Connected directly to the School Wide Network) or Off Campus (Just through any Internet Connection) It does not matter.. but apparently this may be an anomoly in regards to Universities..

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Old 06-19-2002, 12:26 PM   #33
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wow. that is impressive. in my experience, such access is unheard of. perhaps the presence of larry lessig at harvard has persuaded the school to liberate its resources.
do you have any idea regarding the particulars of how such a deal was worked out.
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Old 06-19-2002, 12:34 PM   #34
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Originally posted by kobayashi
wow. that is impressive. in my experience, such access is unheard of. perhaps the presence of larry lessig at harvard has persuaded the school to liberate its resources.
do you have any idea regarding the particulars of how such a deal was worked out.
Harvard?... I went to Notre Dame.

They tout themselves as having the most technologically advanced and wired Campus and Network in the country.. God Knows they have the money for it.

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Old 06-19-2002, 12:47 PM   #35
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Originally posted by kobayashi
but she is in school. as i'm sure you're aware, but have not considered, school's require you to have certain facilities to carry out your work. though tuition and various fees are paid many schools do not provide such things as specific software, especially off campus to their students.

as i'm sure you're also aware many times the pressures of daily life for a student prevent the individual from spending all their time at school working on said project.

so the student is left with little choice.
Fact is, many of the more important software packages are offered at what are called "educational prices," designed to help both students and faculty to buy their products at lower prices, given that they're used for educational purposes.

For example, Microsoft Office XP Professional normally costs around $580. It's "academic price"? $200.

Further, keep in mind that this is for the full Office XP Pro suite, including Word, Excel, Outlook, Powerpoint, AND Access.

Honestly, most college kids ONLY need Word. But let's assume that the student's in grad school (requiring him to make quite a few presentations) AND studying finance (requiring spreadsheet software). Even then, we're talking about three programs:

Word, Powerpoint, and Excel.

Throw in Outlook, and you basically have MS Office 2000 Standard. IT'S academic price is $150.

(I've had to buy more than $150 in books for a single semester before - and that's WITH me looking for good prices on used books.)

That still sounds like a LOT, and it - frankly - it is. But we're also talking about someone who owns a personal computer. A PC owner can probably save up that kind of money fairly easily.

If they can't (which I believe is a wild assumption), most departments offer on-campus labs that include ALL the software you need to do any academic work.

But let's assume the improbable worst:

Let's assume someone must do his academic work at home; he lives so far from campus that he can't regularly work at the labs. We're assuming this person can afford school, books, the commute to at least attend classes, and a personal computer. Unbelievably, this same person can't afford to buy the software he actually needs to do his work.

I think this is a rare case indeed, but would stealing the software at that point be justified? Possibly. Is it still theft? DEFINITELY.
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Old 06-19-2002, 12:54 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite


Harvard?... I went to Notre Dame.
apologies. i am confused today. i'm getting my 'big' schools of the south mixed up.
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Old 06-19-2002, 12:56 PM   #37
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Originally posted by Achtung Bubba

Is it still theft? DEFINITELY.
i know lotsa people who require software that is only located on my campus, live say a half hour away, and need said software at all hours.

i guess it is dependant on a lot of factors, and in my opinion we are both using the word 'assume' a little too much.
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Old 06-19-2002, 01:13 PM   #38
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Originally posted by kobayashi


i know lotsa people who require software that is only located on my campus, live say a half hour away, and need said software at all hours.

i guess it is dependant on a lot of factors, and in my opinion we are both using the word 'assume' a little too much.
And are these people - people who apparently can afford college, books, the 30-minute commute, AND a personal computer - still too destitute to afford the academic prices of the software they need?

It's an argument that is, frankly, hard to swallow in the general case. At the very least, I think those circumstances are so freaking rare that they simply do not justify most cases of piracy.
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Old 06-19-2002, 03:43 PM   #39
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And are these people - people who apparently can afford college, books, the 30-minute commute, AND a personal computer - still too destitute to afford the academic prices of the software they need?

It's an argument that is, frankly, hard to swallow in the general case. At the very least, I think those circumstances are so freaking rare that they simply do not justify most cases of piracy.
consider many students are riding a $6500 student loan(the maximum bank student loan in the nation, gov student loans are horribly inept and scholarships are unfortunately rare), maybe a couple of grand from parents, and 4 or 5 grand from your own summer work. that's 12 500 - 13 500 which is now the estimated cost by most of a year at school, excluding software licenses.

this is the situation many canadian students are in and there is very little money left to be flexible with such expenses as software licenses. when i say half hour i mean walk or public transit, i don't mean daddies lexus all the way to school.

in any case i fear we are being far too particular for it to matter. my only point was that in many cases the students are also considerably leaned on.
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Old 06-19-2002, 04:12 PM   #40
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Hello,

I think I stated my opinion already earlier on on pirated software. As such, I try to avoid pirate copies on my computer. Instead, when I need some software, I look for programs that are free by nature.

For all of you who have an illegal copy of MS Office, there is a free (as in beer) office suite out since a month or so: OpenOffice.org. You can find it at (surprise!) http://www.openoffice.org
The suite has a word processor, a spreadsheet program, presentation designer and a light graphic application and is fully compatible with the Microsoft document formats (.doc, .xls, .pps). As said, it is free, but it is a 50 Mb download or so. The application is available for different platforms (currently Windows, Linux and Solaris with a Mac OS X build coming soon) and in many different languages.
(I have to say though that I haven't installed it yet on my computer, I first want to finish my thesis before I go meddling with a different word processor).

Another popular application is WinZip (for compressing files). IIRC this program is shareware, but I think many use it constantly without registering (and paying) it. A very good alternative is UltimateZip. This application is freeware and can be found at http://www.ultimatezip.com (duh!). I use it constantly and it is exactly like WinZip (only free).

Using pirated software is often not just a consequence of not wanting to spend money on software, but of not knowing that free (as in beer) alternatives are around.

C ya!

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