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Old 03-14-2002, 11:43 AM   #21
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Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
But a woman drowns her five children, including one she had to chase around the house? Well, she MUST be insane, so let's not punish her.
*snip*
(Very odd: you concieve, and you can kill it. Let it be born, and you must take care of it. You don't feed it properly, beat the child, or don't send it to school, and you should be tried for child abuse. BUT if you MURDER the child, God forbid a court of law convict you of murder.)
bubba, you rawk.
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Old 03-14-2002, 12:56 PM   #22
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by popkidu2:
[B]db9 I would've expected a more intelligent comment than "let her fry" from you.

mother to methodically drown her five children..


Popkid-
Wasnt intending to offend.
Lets not forget who the real victims are here. Mrs Yates is NOT A VICTIM.
Before she even drowned the first child she was 'banking' on sympathy like this.
Your perspective may change after you have little ones of your own.
Again, not intending to offend.
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let her fry.

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Old 03-14-2002, 04:36 PM   #23
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andrea yates is a victim--- of mental illness. unfortunately, she is not the only victim. her mental illness has immediately taken six lives, not to mention the rest of her family who will be living with the fallout of her illness for the rest oif their lives. spending the rest of her life in a phychiatric institution, in my opinion, is not getting off scott free. call me naive, but i find it very hard to believe that a sane mother would premeditate the murder of her five children, make no effort to conceal the deed, turn herself in, all the while "banking" on the sympathy/insanity bit to get her off.

diamond,no feud intended here, but i wasn't aware that andrea yate's behavior was the standard that we should be holding ourselves to.

[This message has been edited by hotasahandbag (edited 03-14-2002).]
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Old 03-14-2002, 04:50 PM   #24
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I have suffered from post partum depression...and mine was the relatively light 'baby blues'. Intrusive bad thoughts would enter my mind...I would squash them down only to have another one invade. It was awful. It only lasted a week...I can't imagine what someone with full blown depression goes through And a warning to all you future moms out there...it is normal! So if it happens to you don't think you are a bad mom or anything...it just means your hormone level dropped too quickly. However if it lasts for more than two weeks...GET HELP!!!

The fact that Andrea Yates called the Police bothered me as well...but from what I understand..you can go in and out of madness. It isn't always a thing of when you go there...you stay there. There can be moments of lucidity where reason shines through if only briefly.
Or it could be (going back to the relgious angle) she thought in her state that she had obeyed God's laws...and so she would trust God to take care of her when it came to temporal laws....or she didn't care what happened to her physically...she had done what she was supposed to on a spirtual plane.
I hope that doesn't sound like some kind of religious doublespeak...I am trying to make a point here and hope it gets through...I'm sure some of you will understand what I'm trying to say here...
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Old 03-14-2002, 04:58 PM   #25
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
About Andrea Yates, I think that she was maybe possessed. But she may have gone insane. However, in my mind, that doesn't lessen what punishment she should receive - life in prison.
How ironic. Assuming she was possessed (which I doubt), that would make her not responsible for her actions. Yet, you still think that she should spend life in prison even if that were true.

The Yates case is one where I don't think there is such a thing as a "clear cut" response. The murders were wrong, yes, but the signs were there all along, and the husband just gets to go free and play off public sympathy. I'm guessing he was clearly one of those "uber-Christians," who likely demanded a lot from Andrea Yates. He wanted a big "Christian" family, so she was going to do it, like it or not. I have a feeling he spouted off that "women must be subordinate to husbands" passage from the epistles of St. Paul. The doctors tell her not to have any more children, but she kept on having them, probably on the demands of her husband. She lives in what has been described as a "bus" with five young children, all being home schooled by her, while the husband gets to run off to work and get away from it all. Her mental illness was also likely brushed off as her not having "enough faith," so she was just supposed to "pray and repent" to Jesus to "save" her. Yet, we are surprised now that Andrea Yates eventually killed her children, with all her documented and ignored instances of psychosis leading up to the murders?

I'm sorry. Maybe I empathize with her plight too much. I cannot remotely know what she was thinking, nor whether she was ultimately culpable for her actions. However, I have a feeling that if the jury was allowed to know that she would have ended up in a mental institution likely for the rest of her life on a verdict of "not guilty by reason of insanity" (prohibited from being mentioned to the jury by the Texas Constitution, though), I have a feeling that the verdict may have been different.

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Old 03-14-2002, 06:09 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
How ironic. Assuming she was possessed (which I doubt), that would make her not responsible for her actions. Yet, you still think that she should spend life in prison even if that were true.
The murders were wrong, yes, but the signs were there all along, and the husband just gets to go free and play off public sympathy. I'm sorry. However, I have a feeling that if the jury was allowed to know that she would have ended up in a mental institution likely for the rest of her life on a verdict of "not guilty by reason of insanity" (prohibited from being mentioned to the jury by the Texas Constitution, though), I have a feeling that the verdict may have been different.
Melon
Every man is responsible for his own actions. If she were possessed by demons, that's sad. But she still murdered her 5 children. And I don't care if you lock her up in a prison or a mental hospital. The point to me is to get her away from society. Forever.

And yes, I agree. It's not right that the husband gets away scot free. I wrote that in an earlier post.


[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 03-14-2002).]
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Old 03-15-2002, 08:58 AM   #27
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What an absolutely awful story.
Regardless of the outcome of the court case, the woman is guilty. The only grey area to my thinking is the level of sanity or insanity depending on your point of view. There are so many degrees of insanity, it can be hard to classify them. I dont see how anyone who can drown their 5 children can be considered sane. Whether it is tempory, or ongoing, it is not an act most people can engage while mentally and emotionally together. Unless they fit the rarer 2nd type of killer who kills as a result of insular reactions to their self.
The mind has its limits on what it can take, and I think she was a victim in the sense that she reached a higher a level of breaking point, an extremely acute version of the more regular stress that we all feel, but can usually either contain or overcome. The external factors contributing to her killing her children may well have been too intense for her mind to cope. Whether it was a build up, or a temporary moment, perhaps only a psychiatrist can decide. Regardless, it was too much for her to retain control of her faculties. It is not sane to murder anyone. I believe it is easy to decide on guilty or not guilty, you either did it or not. To argue that the insanity plea is a back door for her is something I dont agree with. I see her insanity as another fact. Fact: she is guilty, she did it. Fact: she was not in control of her mind when she did it. The law doesnt share my views on this, hence we can get 'not guilty by reason of insanity'. It would be nice to see a verdict of 'guilty; sentencing with ongoing treatment'. But I think someone already suggested this.
Still, a very sad case, whatever your views I think.
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Old 03-15-2002, 09:02 AM   #28
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Fry
the
wench.

db9
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Old 03-15-2002, 12:46 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
[She]poses no risk to the public.


Tell her kids that.
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Old 03-15-2002, 04:43 PM   #30
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They had the wrong foreman on that jury.
I demand recount.

db9
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Old 03-15-2002, 05:22 PM   #31
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I'm so pissed off I can hardly speak. Ignoring her medical condition was the same as premeditation and motive as far as I'm concerned. They knew she was a threat and they did NOTHING. She and her husband should be punished.
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Old 03-15-2002, 05:48 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peaseblossom:
I'm so pissed off I can hardly speak. Ignoring her medical condition was the same as premeditation and motive as far as I'm concerned. They knew she was a threat and they did NOTHING. She and her husband should be punished.
Her husband should definitely have to answer for some of this. He's guilty of neglect if nothing else. As for her, do you not think that forty years to think about what she did to her children won't be hell on earth?
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Old 03-15-2002, 06:23 PM   #33
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
As for her, do you not think that forty years to think about what she did to her children won't be hell on earth?
I doubt she cares.

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Old 03-15-2002, 07:44 PM   #34
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I doubt she cares.
You cannot judge a person unless you lived their life.
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Old 03-16-2002, 03:07 AM   #35
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The jury just handed out the sentence: Life in prison.
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Old 03-16-2002, 05:32 PM   #36
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Only one person that I saw mentioned the words "post-partum depression" in their post.

Thousands of children are killed every year by their own mothers who are suffering from post-partum depression. (Although this is not to say that every mother who kills or abuses a child has PPD.) PPD is a much misunderstood illness, and it can make people behave in ways that seem cold, calculating, lucid, and aware of their actions, whereas in reality they are not in control of their behavior. And it is attitudes like those expressed in this thread that keep mothers, husbands, and family members from understanding this illness and seeking help for those who need it.

Imagine you've just had a baby and it is supposed to be the happiest time of your life. Our society has really glorified the process of childbirth and new parenthood. Meanwhile, you're feeling very unlike yourself, having uncontrollable thoughts of hurting your new baby, having thoughts of killing yourself, not knowing what to do. How do you go about asking for help? People will judge you for your uncontrollable thoughts, calling you crazy. No wonder so many cases go untreated and end up in tragedy, as did the Andrea Yates case. People knew she needed help. She had even been diagnosed with PPD after the delivery of her fourth child.

But as I said, it is attitudes like those expressed by people in this thread, or indirectly expressed, such as people telling Sula's mom to just believe in God rather than seek help, that contribute to the lack of treatment and prevention. Depression is a serious illness with a plethora of causes, many of which are physiological. As someone who has battled depression for years, I find the opinions about "insanity" in this thread extremely ignorant and ill-informed. It is this kind of stigma that discourages people with any kind of depression from seeking help.

Perhaps if Andrea Yates had received treatment, she would not be in this situation. What she did is certainly deplorable, but if she was indeed suffering from PPD, then the tragedy is even worse in that it may have been prevented. I guess my reason for writing this is the hope that people will learn more about PPD and realize that cases like Andrea Yates' happen all the time. Only education and active treatment and prevention can stop it from happening again and again.

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Old 03-16-2002, 09:46 PM   #37
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heartlandgirl-very well said. thank you.
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Old 03-17-2002, 03:43 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peaseblossom:
They knew she was a threat and they did NOTHING. She and her husband should be punished.
Agreed. Awful, horrible case. I hope that every day for the next forty years she thinks about her children in their last moments and hates herself for doing what she did to them.
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Old 03-20-2002, 12:44 AM   #39
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For those still interested in this story, Oprah Winfrey will be interviewing the husband tomorrow (I apologize, I think his name is Russell? Yates, but I'm not sure.)

Oprah comes on at 4 pm Central where I live, but I would check your local listings if you want to watch it. It should be interesting to hear the husband's point of view.
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Old 03-20-2002, 12:48 AM   #40
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For those still interested in this story, Oprah Winfrey will be interviewing the husband tomorrow (I apologize, I think his name is Russell? Yates, but I'm not sure.)

Oprah comes on at 4 pm Central where I live, but I would check your local listings if you want to watch it. It should be interesting to hear the husband's point of view.
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