wolfwill23
War Child
Angela Harlem said:
Uh, because it was in self defense.
An Interesting Twist In The Whole "Gun Control" Issue
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Uh, because it was in self defense.
pax
ONE love, blood, life
Please review previous posts in the thread before posting. Thank you.
OP
OP
U2Bama
Rock n' Roll Doggie
paxetaurora said:
Who? What happened?
zoomerang II
War Child
two wrongs dont make a right. If neither of them had a gun noone would have been shot.
(i know this may be ideologically correct rather than practical)
Anyone off the street can just walk in and get a shotgun? my goodness. i think thats the problem.
(i know this may be ideologically correct rather than practical)
Anyone off the street can just walk in and get a shotgun? my goodness. i think thats the problem.
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Popmartijn
Blue Crack Supplier
U2Bama said:
But then again, if the sniper would not have had the opportunity to buy his weapon in every regular gun store in the country, the shootings maybe also wouldn't have occurred. What I've heard, the weapon used can be bought in any gun store (just like the bullets) and until the fourth or fifth shooting many people (experts) said that almost anyone (without experience) could have fired the shots.
So with gun control those in the liquor store cannot buy weapons so easily, but neither can the sniper.
C ya!
Marty
Angela Harlem
Jesus Online
Can I ask someone what type of guns are exactly freely available over the counter? Bama mentioned rifles in sporting goods stores, but what about handguns? Are there stricter regulations on purchasing those? Just curious.
Popmartijn its a good point you raised. I agree totally in the less guns = less crime theory, but I think its a bit naive I guess, to reduce the issue to that alone.
You have to start with ownership and responsibility, the right to own a gun shouldn't be an option to just any one. I know people aren't born with criminal records, but shouldn't more care be taken with who is issued one and who isn't? Clerks and service station workers for example shouldn't need to own their own guns just to feel safe - homeowners too. Broken record time again, but the justice system. Its too idealistic to think you can get rid of the scumbag factor in those who threaten and steal their way through life. Removing guns is only one possible answer. Crims will just use a knife or baseball bat or lead pipe to get what they want. Free and easy access to guns just seems a bit too easy.
Popmartijn its a good point you raised. I agree totally in the less guns = less crime theory, but I think its a bit naive I guess, to reduce the issue to that alone.
You have to start with ownership and responsibility, the right to own a gun shouldn't be an option to just any one. I know people aren't born with criminal records, but shouldn't more care be taken with who is issued one and who isn't? Clerks and service station workers for example shouldn't need to own their own guns just to feel safe - homeowners too. Broken record time again, but the justice system. Its too idealistic to think you can get rid of the scumbag factor in those who threaten and steal their way through life. Removing guns is only one possible answer. Crims will just use a knife or baseball bat or lead pipe to get what they want. Free and easy access to guns just seems a bit too easy.
wolfwill23
War Child
Popmartijn said:
I do not agree with this. If guns are outlawed, then only the criminals will have them. If a bad guy wants to get his hand on a firearm bad enough, he will.
wolfwill23 said:
But do you just dismiss the fact that in a number of Western countries, guns are not available for wholesale, and the murder rates are way, way lower than in the USA?
To quote from TWW: "If you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112. Do you think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature? Or do you think it's because those guys have gun control laws?"
Popmartijn
Blue Crack Supplier
wolfwill23 said:
True.
But if a good guy really wants to have a firearm then he will get one. Still, when it's more difficult to get a gun, then that will deter people from buying them. It will prevent spur of the moment purchases. How easy will it be to get a Bushmaster? It's not your average handgun.
Furthermore, if only the really hard criminals can get their hands on firearms, it will get safer (IMO). It's an awful feeling when someone points a gun at you, but I'd rather choose to get confronted by a hard criminal than some amateur with shaking hands who pulls the trigger the moment you sneeze.
Outlawing guns will not prevent all shootings, but they will reduce the danger.
C ya!
Marty
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
I'm an advocate of gun control, but the sniper shootings would not have been prevented by any gun control laws. The man was in the military and he was using what can be considered a hunting rifle, and hunting rifles will never be covered under gun control laws. The ammunition can be legislated but this time of the year runs under certain hunting seasons so that would not have even help. This was a result of an angry individual who's problem was never taken care of early on.
Now as far as people saying "if a criminal wants a gun they can get a gun" this is true, but where do you think the majority of blackmarket guns come from? They come from legitamate gun manufacturers. The flow to the black market can be control somewhat, if certain gun control laws go into affect. The thing is if the supply of black market of guns became significanly less the price would sky rocket and your everyday street hustler would not be able to afford guns.
Now as far as people saying "if a criminal wants a gun they can get a gun" this is true, but where do you think the majority of blackmarket guns come from? They come from legitamate gun manufacturers. The flow to the black market can be control somewhat, if certain gun control laws go into affect. The thing is if the supply of black market of guns became significanly less the price would sky rocket and your everyday street hustler would not be able to afford guns.
dream wanderer
Acrobat
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2000
- Messages
- 320
anitram said:
I think in the US the guns are already 'out there' in the population in great supply. In those other countries...were the guns already out there in the populace? Just asking. In the days before strict gun control in the UK wouldn't someone owning a gun be a rare thing? Again just asking. Here someone owning a gun has always been pretty much the norm. To suddenly have gun control laws restricting the future firearms purchases would have no effect on the guns that are already 'out there' legally and illegally in the hands of law abiding and criminal types alike.
Unless you want some kind of government roundup of guns...and that would be impossible. There are so many people who purchased guns in the days before registration and all such laws were in effect...how could they possibly find them all?
I do believe there is something rotten at the core of American society but its not the guns themselves. Canada has as many guns as we do...but not the gun violence. We used to have less gun control...and less gun violence. In the days when I was in high school...if a kid was going hunting after school he could have the rifle in the back of his car in the high school parking lot...AND NO ONE SHOT UP THE SCHOOL!
Yes..something is wrong here. Guns are part of it but it goes much deeper than that.
dream wanderer
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zoomerang II
War Child
i cant say much for other countries, but Australia was known as a gun carrying society, probably similar to America, until 1996 and the Port Arthur massacre. I think approximatley 600,000 semi automatic guns were surrended in the amnesty that followed the tighter gun controls. It looks liker they are about to do the same with handguns and hunting guns are now completed regulated and controlled.
As long as you have things like the Colombine shooting or the Washington shooting happening, i think gun control IS the right way to go.
I just don't think it's a good idea to make it possible for all kinds of maniacs/messed up kids to just go out there and buy a lethal weapon in a store. And who knows how many accidental shootings/deaths happen when children play with guns at home. Even people qualified for weapon use can make a mistake (you know, how a person will claim "but it's not loaded!" and fire away at someone).
Regarding self defense: i agree you have a right to defend yourself if a criminal goes after you, but on the other hand, i can't imagine myself shooting someone or even killing him. (we don't have any kind of arms in our house anyway) Most likely i would freeze and just let the criminal take whatever he wants.
Also, if you're at home and an armed burglar breaks in - isn't it more likely you'll get hurt too if you have a weapon than if you don't? I mean, you're scared, it's a stressful situation - who's to say you'll hit the burglar with the first shot - you're probably less used to using a weapon than most burglars - and who's to say you'll get a second chance to shoot again?
I'd rather take my chances unarmed than definitely risk my life.
PS: The article says the burglar's gun dropped on the floor plus he fell down once already. Then why shoot him dead? He could have easily shot him in the legs, arms (after the first 3 shots i mean), puch the guy with the rifle butt doesn't say he had any other weapons on him.
I just don't think it's a good idea to make it possible for all kinds of maniacs/messed up kids to just go out there and buy a lethal weapon in a store. And who knows how many accidental shootings/deaths happen when children play with guns at home. Even people qualified for weapon use can make a mistake (you know, how a person will claim "but it's not loaded!" and fire away at someone).
Regarding self defense: i agree you have a right to defend yourself if a criminal goes after you, but on the other hand, i can't imagine myself shooting someone or even killing him. (we don't have any kind of arms in our house anyway) Most likely i would freeze and just let the criminal take whatever he wants.
Also, if you're at home and an armed burglar breaks in - isn't it more likely you'll get hurt too if you have a weapon than if you don't? I mean, you're scared, it's a stressful situation - who's to say you'll hit the burglar with the first shot - you're probably less used to using a weapon than most burglars - and who's to say you'll get a second chance to shoot again?
I'd rather take my chances unarmed than definitely risk my life.
PS: The article says the burglar's gun dropped on the floor plus he fell down once already. Then why shoot him dead? He could have easily shot him in the legs, arms (after the first 3 shots i mean), puch the guy with the rifle butt doesn't say he had any other weapons on him.
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Zoomerang96
ONE love, blood, life
my 2 cents...
1) i agree there should be VERY strict gun control. but it is not the end all.
2) anyone who wants to kill someone - CAN! it doesnt take a gun! there are millions of effective methods to execute someone.
3) i get the feeling that people think if the states had gun control everything would be safer...i highly doubt it. anyone who really wants a gun will get a gun.
and like i said before, someone who is serious about killing will find a substitue method.
1) i agree there should be VERY strict gun control. but it is not the end all.
2) anyone who wants to kill someone - CAN! it doesnt take a gun! there are millions of effective methods to execute someone.
3) i get the feeling that people think if the states had gun control everything would be safer...i highly doubt it. anyone who really wants a gun will get a gun.
and like i said before, someone who is serious about killing will find a substitue method.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
This is true for Cain killed Able and there were no guns or gun control. But the point is, that it makes it a lot harder. Guns allow someone to kill from long distance and never really "feel" the affect of taking someone's life. Plus it's much easier to defend yourself against a knife or baseball bat, or whatever than it is a gun. Also "heat of the moment" killings would decrease.
I don't think anyone is arguing that gun control will save the nation, it just makes it a little harder, and over time will reduce the level of crime.
zoomerang II
War Child
Funny how we tend to look over the reasons behind gun use and crime. Funny how as societies we dont like to tackle the root problems of drugs, mental health, social disfunction or poverty that lead robbers to carry out these deads in the first place.
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OP
OP
U2Bama
Rock n' Roll Doggie
U2girl:
We do not know the chronology of when the villain dropped his gun behind the counter; please remember that the villain was "thrashing around" after taking the first few shots; it is a small convenience store; I have been in it before. My mom's co-worker's brother was shot and killed there several years ago beacuse he stopped to use the pay phone.
I agree with everything that dream wanderer had to say. I do not own a gun myself and probably never will, but simply "banning" guns will do very little, in this country, to cure the problems of violent crime.
~U2Alabama
We do not know the chronology of when the villain dropped his gun behind the counter; please remember that the villain was "thrashing around" after taking the first few shots; it is a small convenience store; I have been in it before. My mom's co-worker's brother was shot and killed there several years ago beacuse he stopped to use the pay phone.
I agree with everything that dream wanderer had to say. I do not own a gun myself and probably never will, but simply "banning" guns will do very little, in this country, to cure the problems of violent crime.
~U2Alabama
OP
OP
U2Bama
Rock n' Roll Doggie
It Happened Again
From THE BIRMINGHAM NEWS:
Man shot during East Lake holdup try
Convenience store owner wounds suspect
11/05/02
CAROL ROBINSON
News staff writer
The owner of an East Lake convenience store said he shot a man who aimed a gun at him during an early morning holdup attempt Monday.
Ty Van Nguyen, 44, said he was outside his Texaco gas station and convenience store on Oporto-Madrid Boulevard working on a gas pump when a gunman came toward him, his weapon drawn.
"He put a gun right on my chest," Nguyen said. "He would have shot me."
Nguyen shot him instead, striking him at least once in the face. The man, whose name police wouldn't release, was taken to University Hospital. Efforts to obtain his condition were unsuccessful.
Birmingham police spokesman Lt. Henry Irby said the man was arrested, but formal charges had not been filed.
Nguyen said he and his wife were alone at the store about 12:30 a.m. when he went outside to work on the gas pump. While he was taking a part from the pump to his car, the gunman approached him and forced him to crouch down.
"He pointed the gun and said, `Don't do nothing. Put your hands up,'" Nguyen said. "He said that three times. He was calm."
Nguyen put up his right hand but used his other to reach for the gun he tucks in the waistband on his left side.
"I always carry a gun," he said.
Nguyen fired six shots at the robber, one of them striking the man in the chin.
"The first one hurt him bad," he said. "I feel like God was helping me."
It was the third robbery at the store in Nguyen's 14 years there. Nguyen, a husband and father of three with a fourth child on the way, said he no longer feels safe.
"I think it's very dangerous," he said. "I know I've got to find a way" to get out of the business.
Monday's shooting was at least the third time in the past month that a would-be robber was shot during a holdup.
In early October, two teens were shot by the owner of Mai's Convenience Store in western Birmingham.
A week later, a newspaper deliveryman shot and killed a man wielding a shotgun at the Chevron on First Avenue North.
"We do not advocate citizens taking the law into their own hands," Irby said. "One, we would prefer them to be a good witness and two, we want them to survive the encounter versus the situation perhaps taking a tragic turn and them becoming seriously injured."
"Sometimes," Irby said, "you have no choice but to defend yourself."
From THE BIRMINGHAM NEWS:
Man shot during East Lake holdup try
Convenience store owner wounds suspect
11/05/02
CAROL ROBINSON
News staff writer
The owner of an East Lake convenience store said he shot a man who aimed a gun at him during an early morning holdup attempt Monday.
Ty Van Nguyen, 44, said he was outside his Texaco gas station and convenience store on Oporto-Madrid Boulevard working on a gas pump when a gunman came toward him, his weapon drawn.
"He put a gun right on my chest," Nguyen said. "He would have shot me."
Nguyen shot him instead, striking him at least once in the face. The man, whose name police wouldn't release, was taken to University Hospital. Efforts to obtain his condition were unsuccessful.
Birmingham police spokesman Lt. Henry Irby said the man was arrested, but formal charges had not been filed.
Nguyen said he and his wife were alone at the store about 12:30 a.m. when he went outside to work on the gas pump. While he was taking a part from the pump to his car, the gunman approached him and forced him to crouch down.
"He pointed the gun and said, `Don't do nothing. Put your hands up,'" Nguyen said. "He said that three times. He was calm."
Nguyen put up his right hand but used his other to reach for the gun he tucks in the waistband on his left side.
"I always carry a gun," he said.
Nguyen fired six shots at the robber, one of them striking the man in the chin.
"The first one hurt him bad," he said. "I feel like God was helping me."
It was the third robbery at the store in Nguyen's 14 years there. Nguyen, a husband and father of three with a fourth child on the way, said he no longer feels safe.
"I think it's very dangerous," he said. "I know I've got to find a way" to get out of the business.
Monday's shooting was at least the third time in the past month that a would-be robber was shot during a holdup.
In early October, two teens were shot by the owner of Mai's Convenience Store in western Birmingham.
A week later, a newspaper deliveryman shot and killed a man wielding a shotgun at the Chevron on First Avenue North.
"We do not advocate citizens taking the law into their own hands," Irby said. "One, we would prefer them to be a good witness and two, we want them to survive the encounter versus the situation perhaps taking a tragic turn and them becoming seriously injured."
"Sometimes," Irby said, "you have no choice but to defend yourself."
bonoman
Refugee
Did you know that in Canada per capita we have as many weapons as the states but have a far far far far far less death rate by guns?
Like someone else said it the states homicidal nature. People like to kill there.
Like someone else said it the states homicidal nature. People like to kill there.
DrTeeth
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
bonoman said:
So is that an argument for or against gun-control?
bonoman
Refugee
I dont know really. What do you think.
Should people learn not to kill.
Or should we take all the guns away from them so its not so convientent to kill?
Should people learn not to kill.
Or should we take all the guns away from them so its not so convientent to kill?
Angela Harlem
Jesus Online
ZoomerangII its interesting when you look at crime stats in Australia after the buy back. The actual amnesty itself was a huge success, but then you look at figures for violent crime in general and you have to question what is happening in Australian society after 1996 to now.
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/guncontrol_20010302.html
Compared to the US and others, we are kidding ourselves that this is a 'lucky country' and that we are safe.
Another interesting read:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15322
I know this may be biased as they are both from the desk of Jon Doherty, but the point is a decrease in firearms ownership actually increases or seems to increase violent crime rather.
I dunno. People say it isn't the legal registered owners of guns that are the problem, but why are such a large percentage of the illegal guns those that are stolen from these registered owners? Yeah the problems are societal, and we need to look at all the other issues but the guns that criminals obtain are coming from registered owners. Legal ownership IS part of the problem, is it not?
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/guncontrol_20010302.html
Compared to the US and others, we are kidding ourselves that this is a 'lucky country' and that we are safe.
Another interesting read:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15322
I know this may be biased as they are both from the desk of Jon Doherty, but the point is a decrease in firearms ownership actually increases or seems to increase violent crime rather.
I dunno. People say it isn't the legal registered owners of guns that are the problem, but why are such a large percentage of the illegal guns those that are stolen from these registered owners? Yeah the problems are societal, and we need to look at all the other issues but the guns that criminals obtain are coming from registered owners. Legal ownership IS part of the problem, is it not?
