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Old 03-01-2007, 08:47 AM   #261
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Originally posted by redhotswami

you mean swim up?
Fair enough

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Old 03-01-2007, 09:09 AM   #262
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Originally posted by AEON

Does that make it right for you?

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Old 03-01-2007, 05:45 PM   #263
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i'm going to guess it doesn't, not that i can speak for aeon. i think in general it gives a kind of permission for complacency, doesn't it. that 'think global, act local' campaign had a lot of potential. pity that was all it ever had - potential.
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Old 03-02-2007, 08:14 AM   #264
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Let's try to keep this civil, folks. No need to start getting snippy towards each other.
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Old 03-03-2007, 01:19 AM   #265
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Originally posted by Irvine511

because it's more politically expedient (in 2003, at least) to invade Iraq and pretend we're finding WMDs, and then pretending we're brining democracy, and then pretend we're fighting them there so we don't fight them here, when all along -- as has been pointed out to us in long, droning posts -- we're only in Iraq to protect the Saudi Arabian oil fields.

yes, better to keep fucking up the Middle East than develop new energy technologies.

so when are you buying your hybrid?
that is another reason to be so energy saving as possable.If people look where the oil is comming from,....Venuzuela, Iran, Saudie Arabia, Russia, Africa ( all very democratic countries ) oil money is making those countries only richer.

Saving energy is a win win win situation.

1 - My children will have energy also
2- My children will have a cleaner world.
3- My children will have a saver world because all those corrupt dictators need to start re-think thier position.

btw, a hybrid is only energy saving in cities,...on long distances, the cars are to heavy to save energy.
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Old 03-05-2007, 01:07 PM   #266
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A view from a French Scientist.


Allegre's second thoughts
The Deniers -- The National Post's series on scientists who buck the conventional wisdom on climate science
Published: Friday, March 02, 2007
Claude Allegre, one of France's leading socialists and among her most celebrated scientists, was among the first to sound the alarm about the dangers of global warming.

"By burning fossil fuels, man increased the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere which, for example, has raised the global mean temperature by half a degree in the last century," Dr. Allegre, a renowned geochemist, wrote 20 years ago in Cles pour la geologie.." Fifteen years ago, Dr. Allegre was among the 1500 prominent scientists who signed "World Scientists' Warning to Humanity," a highly publicized letter stressing that global warming's "potential risks are very great" and demanding a new caring ethic that recognizes the globe's fragility in order to stave off "spirals of environmental decline, poverty, and unrest, leading to social, economic and environmental collapse."

The full Deniers series

In the 1980s and early 1990s, when concern about global warming was in its infancy, little was known about the mechanics of how it could occur, or the consequences that could befall us. Since then, governments throughout the western world and bodies such as the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change have commissioned billions of dollars worth of research by thousands of scientists. With a wealth of data now in, Dr. Allegre has recanted his views. To his surprise, the many climate models and studies failed dismally in establishing a man-made cause of catastrophic global warming. Meanwhile, increasing evidence indicates that most of the warming comes of natural phenomena. Dr. Allegre now sees global warming as over-hyped and an environmental concern of second rank.

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Font: ****His break with what he now sees as environmental cant on climate change came in September, in an article entitled "The Snows of Kilimanjaro" in l' Express, the French weekly. His article cited evidence that Antarctica is gaining ice and that Kilimanjaro's retreating snow caps, among other global-warming concerns, come from natural causes. "The cause of this climate change is unknown," he states matter of factly. There is no basis for saying, as most do, that the "science is settled."

Dr. Allegre's skepticism is noteworthy in several respects. For one, he is an exalted member of France's political establishment, a friend of former Socialist president Lionel Jospin, and, from 1997 to 2000, his minister of education, research and technology, charged with improving the quality of government research through closer co-operation with France's educational institutions. For another, Dr. Allegre has the highest environmental credentials. The author of early environmental books, he fought successful battles to protect the ozone layer from CFCs and public health from lead pollution. His break with scientific dogma over global warming came at a personal cost: Colleagues in both the governmental and environmental spheres were aghast that he could publicly question the science behind climate change.

But Dr. Allegre had allegiances to more than his socialist and environmental colleagues. He is, above all, a scientist of the first order, the architect of isotope geodynamics, which showed that the atmosphere was primarily formed early in the history of the Earth, and the geochemical modeller of the early solar system. Because of his path-breaking cosmochemical research, NASA asked Dr. Allegre to participate in the Apollo lunar program, where he helped determine the age of the Moon. Matching his scientific accomplishments in the cosmos are his accomplishments at home: Dr. Allegre is perhaps best known for his research on the structural and geochemical evolution of the Earth's crust and the creation of its mountains, explaining both the title of his article in l' Express and his revulsion at the nihilistic nature of the climate research debate.

Calling the arguments of those who see catastrophe in climate change "simplistic and obscuring the true dangers," Dr. Allegre especially despairs at "the greenhouse-gas fanatics whose proclamations consist in denouncing man's role on the climate without doing anything about it except organizing conferences and preparing protocols that become dead letters." The world would be better off, Dr. Allegre believes, if these "denouncers" became less political and more practical, by proposing practical solutions to head off the dangers they see, such as developing technologies to sequester C02. His dream, he says, is to see "ecology become the engine of economic development and not an artificial obstacle that creates fear."


- - -

- Lawrence Solomon is executive director of Urban Renaissance Institute and Consumer Policy Institute, divisions of Energy Probe Research Foundation.


Claude Allegre received a Ph D in physics in 1962 from the University of Paris. He became the director of the geochemistry and cosmochemistry program at the French National Scientific Research Centre in 1967 and in 1971, he was appointed director of the University of Paris's Department of Earth Sciences. In 1976, he became director of the Paris Institut de Physique du Globe. He is an author of more than 100 scientific articles, many of them seminal studies on the evolution of the Earth using isotopic evidence, and 11 books. He is a member of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences and the French Academy of Science.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:19 PM   #267
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The label denier is a fine piece of political language.
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Old 03-07-2007, 09:04 AM   #268
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This is on Drudge today

Tue Mar 06 2007 17:08:05 ET

The Most ‘Inconvenient Truth’: According to U.N., Animals Raised for Food Generate More Greenhouse Gases Than All Cars and Trucks Combined

Norfolk, Va. — This morning, PETA sent a letter to former vice president Al Gore explaining to him that the best way to fight global warming is to go vegetarian and offering to cook him faux “fried chicken” as an introduction to meat-free meals. In its letter, PETA points out that Gore’s film, An Inconvenient Truth—which starkly outlines the potentially catastrophic effects of global warming and just won the Academy Award for “Best Documentary”—has failed to address the fact that the meat industry is the largest contributor to greenhouse-gas emissions.

In the letter, PETA points out the following:

· The effect that our meat addiction is having on the climate is truly staggering. In fact, in its recent report “Livestock’s Long Shadow—Environmental Issues and Options,” the United Nations determined that raising animals for food generates more greenhouse gases than all the cars and trucks in the world combined.

· Researchers at the University of Chicago have determined that switching to a vegan diet is more effective in countering global warming than switching from a standard American car to a Toyota Prius.

PETA also reminds Gore that his critics love to question whether he practices what he preaches and suggests that by going vegetarian, he could cut down on his contribution to global warming and silence his critics at the same time.

“The single best thing that any of us can do to for our health, for animals, and for the environment is to go vegetarian,” says PETA President Ingrid E. Newkirk. “The best and easiest way for Mr. Gore to show his critics that he’s truly committed to fighting global warming is to kick his meat habit immediately.”
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Old 03-10-2007, 09:39 AM   #269
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Maybe this is all tied in to the polar bear in Lost

'Don't discuss polar bears": memo to scientists

By Deborah Zabarenko, Environment CorrespondentThu Mar 8, 5:27 PM ET

Polar bears, sea ice and global warming are taboo subjects, at least in public, for some U.S. scientists attending meetings abroad, environmental groups and a top federal wildlife official said on Thursday.

Environmental activists called this scientific censorship, which they said was in line with the Bush administration's history of muzzling dissent over global climate change.

But H. Dale Hall, director of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, said this policy was a long-standing one, meant to honor international protocols for meetings where the topics of discussion are negotiated in advance.

The matter came to light in e-mails from the Fish and Wildlife Service that were distributed by the Natural Resources Defense Council and the Center for Biological Diversity, both environmental groups.

Listed as a "new requirement" for foreign travelers on U.S. government business, the memo says that requests for foreign travel "involving or potentially involving climate change, sea ice, and/or polar bears" require special handling, including notice of who will be the official spokesman for the trip.

The Fish and Wildlife Service top officials need assurance that the spokesman, "the one responding to questions on these issues, particularly polar bears" understands the administration's position on these topics.

Two accompanying memos were offered as examples of these kinds of assurance. Both included the line that the traveler "understands the administration's position on climate change, polar bears, and sea ice and will not be speaking on or responding to these issues."


Polar bears are a hot topic for the Bush administration, which decided in December to consider whether to list the white-furred behemoths as "threatened" under the Endangered Species Act, because of scientific reports that the bears' icy habitat is melting due to global warming.

Hall said a decision is expected in January 2008. A "threatened" listing would bar the government from taking any action that jeopardizes the animal's existence, and might spur debate about tougher measures to cut the greenhouse gas emissions that spur global warming.

Hall defended the policy laid out in the memos, saying it was meant to keep scientists from straying from a set agenda at meetings in countries like Russia, Norway and Canada.

For example, he said, one meeting was about "human and polar bear interface." Receding Arctic sea ice where polar bears live and the global climate change that likely played a role in the melting were not proper discussion topics, he said.

"That's not a climate change discussion," Hall said at a telephone briefing. "That's a management, on-the-ground type discussion."

The prohibition on talking about these subjects only applies to public, formal situations, Hall said. Private scientific discussions outside the meeting and away from media are permitted and encouraged, he said.

"This administration has a long history of censoring speech and science on global warming," Eben Burnham-Snyder of the Natural Resources Defense Council said by telephone.

"Whenever we see an instance of the Bush administration restricting speech on global warming, it sends up a huge red flag that their commitment to the issue does not reflect their rhetoric," Burnham-Snyder said.
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Old 03-11-2007, 12:58 AM   #270
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A survey of the animals’ numbers in Canada’s eastern Arctic has revealed that they are thriving, not declining, because of mankind’s interference in the environment.

In the Davis Strait area, a 140,000-square kilometre region, the polar bear population has grown from 850 in the mid-1980s to 2,100 today.

"There aren’t just a few more bears. There are a hell of a lot more bears,” said Mitch Taylor, a polar bear biologist who has spent 20 years studying the animals.

His findings back the claims of Inuit hunters who have long claimed that they were seeing more bears.
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Old 03-11-2007, 08:13 AM   #271
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Oh, the number is increasing.

Well, then let's go on destroying their surrounidngs.
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:45 PM   #272
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer

it amazes me when people post things about burgeoning animal populations or say things like, "remember the acid rain that was supposed to kill us all and it didn't? hype! all of it! hype!"

this is great evidence that environmental regulations work.
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Old 03-11-2007, 02:06 PM   #273
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I just hope we don't get hit with a Bear Tax now.
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Old 03-12-2007, 09:57 AM   #274
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From Drudge of coarse.

Scientists threatened for 'climate denial'
By Tom Harper, Sunday Telegraph

Scientists who questioned mankind's impact on climate change have received death threats and claim to have been shunned by the scientific community.

They say the debate on global warming has been "hijacked" by a powerful alliance of politicians, scientists and environmentalists who have stifled all questioning about the true environmental impact of carbon dioxide emissions.

Timothy Ball, a former climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg in Canada, has received five deaths threats by email since raising concerns about the degree to which man was affecting climate change.

One of the emails warned that, if he continued to speak out, he would not live to see further global warming.

"Western governments have pumped billions of dollars into careers and institutes and they feel threatened," said the professor.

"I can tolerate being called a sceptic because all scientists should be sceptics, but then they started calling us deniers, with all the connotations of the Holocaust. That is an obscenity. It has got really nasty and personal."

Last week, Professor Ball appeared in The Great Global Warming Swindle, a Channel 4 documentary in which several scientists claimed the theory of man-made global warming had become a "religion", forcing alternative explanations to be ignored.

Richard Lindzen, the professor of Atmospheric Science at Massachusetts Institute of Technology - who also appeared on the documentary - recently claimed: "Scientists who dissent from the alarmism have seen their funds disappear, their work derided, and themselves labelled as industry stooges.

"Consequently, lies about climate change gain credence even when they fly in the face of the science."

Dr Myles Allen, from Oxford University, agreed. He said: "The Green movement has hijacked the issue of climate change. It is ludicrous to suggest the only way to deal with the problem is to start micro managing everyone, which is what environmentalists seem to want to do."

Nigel Calder, a former editor of New Scientist, said: "Governments are trying to achieve unanimity by stifling any scientist who disagrees. Einstein could not have got funding under the present system."
By chance, did anyone in the U.K. catch this show? It's not likely to be show here in the states.
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Old 03-12-2007, 10:10 AM   #275
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The Green Mob strikes again.

It's not just for the peace loving hippies anymore.
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Old 03-12-2007, 10:20 AM   #276
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What kills me about this whole "other factors" argument is that there is no clear-cut answer...

It's all about "cycles" and "natural warming trends" and all this crap about how there was a warming period in 1756 or whatever.

So, if the theory is that this is just some kind of "natural cycle" we are in, just how long are we expected to wait?
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Old 03-12-2007, 02:34 PM   #277
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30 years, if it's solar we will trough out into a solar low, if it's atmospheric CO2 then we will keep warming.
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Old 04-19-2007, 03:45 PM   #278
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Al Gore's green home improvements

Story Highlights
• Gore got approval to install 33 solar panels on the roof of his Tennessee home
• Gore also upgrading the furnace, windows, light switches, and heating system
• Bought in 2002, Gore's home is more than 70 years old

NASHVILLE, Tennessee (AP) -- Former Vice President Al Gore's upscale neighborhood granted the environmental activist approval Tuesday to install 33 solar panels on the roof of his mansion.

The city of Belle Meade, Tennessee, had blocked his application until new rules were approved unanimously late Tuesday, said Gore spokesman Chris Song. The city, located within metropolitan Nashville, said the panels must be placed in areas where they can't be seen by neighbors.

Gore, who starred in the documentary film "An Inconvenient Truth" about global warming, already buys enough energy from renewable energy sources such as solar, wind and methane gas to balance 100 percent of his electricity costs.

He is also upgrading the furnace, windows, and light switches, as well as installing new floor radiant heat and solar vents, to improve the home's energy standards, said Kalee Kreider, a Gore spokeswoman.

The home, bought by Gore in 2002, is more than 70 years old and illustrates the challenges of renovating an older home to conserve more energy, Kreider said.

"It's obviously easier to build a green home from the get-go," she said. "When you purchase an older home, these retrofits take a lot longer."
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Old 04-19-2007, 04:01 PM   #279
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Al Gore is an American politician. Al Gore is a wealthy man. Al Gore has a big house. Al Gore has a big footprint. Al Gore has taken major steps to reduce his footprint.

But why do we expect more than that?

I get so sick of people who call activists like Bono and Gore hypocrites for trivial bullshit without taking into account the enormous amount of good that they do in the world.

At least they're trying. What are you doing?
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Old 04-19-2007, 04:03 PM   #280
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holy cow.....

I nearly had a stroke when I saw those bills. And I freak out over a $50 electricity bill and a $75 gas bill!!!!!!!!!!!


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