American pilot drops 500 pound bomb, Kills 4 Canadians.

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Originally posted by gabrielvox:
And let me guess, 80s, being the devout Christian you are you support this war right?

What did you do, follow me here? I note you didnt respond to this thread until I did.

You know what else Ive noticed? Since you and I squared off over religion I have recieved no less than 20 virus emails, previously I have never EVER had even one. If you pray daily you'd better pray I don't find out they originated from you. And I will find out where they came from, believe me.

I do not believe this, the only thing 80 ties would send to you is the bible
smile.gif


And what for use would it have to send someone virus- emails.

Read you, Rono
 
Originally posted by brettig:
I think what is really at fault in this latest friendly fire incident is the military mindset, which means any military in any country.

Oh really? Please inform us on what the military mindset IS and what you feel it should become.

Keep in mind, the "unofficial motto" of many in the military is "Pray for peace, Prepare for WaR".

This isnt the 1st time a keyed up serviceman has ignored orders or got a nervy trigger finger (the 3 most famous i can think of are The Boston Massacre preceding the American Revolution, The Charge of the Light Brigade, and the 1905 massacre of Russian peasants in front of the St Petersburg Winter palace by the Tsar's troops).

Keep in mind, we don't (or at least I don't ) know all of the details yet. We don't know if something malfunctioned on the aircraft (not likely imo), or if something happened on the ground to cause him to ignore orders and fire (very likely imo), or if the transmission was miscommunicated (likely imo), or if he just freaked (highly unlikely).

The best form of inquiry would be one that examined the chain of command, for if this pilot was ordered not to drop his bombs and still did, there must be some problem with the delivery/context/information contained in the orders he received.

Yeah this is given to happen, standard procedure in fact.

I think the blame rests with the pilot, but if we are to prevent these kinds of misunderstandings/incidents/needless deaths, then we need to look at why he did what he did, and how that can be addressed. I dont think this is a question of involvement in afghanistan, because as ive shown, this is a wider issue that streches across many nations and many eras.

[This message has been edited by brettig (edited 04-19-2002).]

Back to what I was hinting at about "what is a military mindset", I think too many people associate this with 'TOP GUN' or other movies that glamorize war and depicts the (in this case) pilots as reckless studs who blow up hostile/enemy targets then shoot back to base for cold beers with the boys and hot drunk sex with the girls.

WRONG

The military mindset cannot be explained to anyone who has not or will not be in this situation. Or at least it cannot be fully appreciated, respectfully.

While I won't bore you with details, right now, I do want you to try and understand something. Bullets make a funny sound, almost comical. Artillery rounds are loud and scary. Anti-aircraft artillery rounds are pretty to look at, the tracer round that is (not all are tracer rounds), like fireworks.

You never hear the ones with your name on them.


[This message has been edited by z edge (edited 04-20-2002).]
 
Communication Breakdown *riff* Communication Breakdown *riff*

The military mindset im talking about is the one that allows for rash errors and breakdowns in command structure...pray for peace but prepare for war is fine (and im NOT arguing that the military must become soft or user friendly or a sensitive new age organisation!), but I think there needs to be an examination of the chain of command in these situations, the procedures that are used, the protocols and even the language...
 
Juan don't you realise that:

1. Only 8/10 interferencers will know youre kidding

2. Only about 1/3 of them will find the joke funny

3. 10/10 will find it TASTELESS.


[This message has been edited by brettig (edited 04-20-2002).]
 
Originally posted by bonoman:
the pilot radiod base and asked to drop a bomb and they said NO. He took another trip around and seen more guns going off, not at him, and dropped a 500 pound bomb. I was allways under the impression that if you are told NO by your supervisors then you dont do it.
I agree that the pilot should face charges because of this

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Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it
 
Originally posted by Salome:
Originally posted by bonoman:
the pilot radiod base and asked to drop a bomb and they said NO. He took another trip around and seen more guns going off, not at him, and dropped a 500 pound bomb. I was allways under the impression that if you are told NO by your supervisors then you dont do it.
I agree that the pilot should face charges because of this


Well Salome, we seem to be coming at odds at evry thread.

On this one, lets see what the investigators have to say before we pass judgement
 
of course if the investigators find out the situation as presented now isn't the actual reality then things will be different

but IMO a soldier who doesn't follow up on orders should face charges when innocent lifes could have been saved

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Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it
 
It is quite true that this is a terrible occurence, but lets not be too hasty in proclaiming who's incompetent and who had a raw deal; the parties are in war and in war terrible things happen, including friendly fire.

I lived in Kuwait for seven years, and it was routine to hear American aviation flying from base to base constantly, it was also strangely common to hear of American planes/helicopters crashing into each other; a plane was once shot down by an American base, and there were two incidents where a couple of helicopters crashed into each other over the Kuwaiti towers. I wonder, how much coverage did that get?

My point is, a lot of stuff happens that doesn't get coverage, and a lot of facts are hidden away from us, and we are left in a position where we don't know what on Earth happened. Is this sort of thing acceptable? Ofcouse not, and the Pentagon should profusely apologise to the Canadians, or atleast certain respective parties. Should those responsible be held accountable? Of course, should further investigation prove as much. Should the Canadians drop out? If they were to, they should do it for a better reason than a mistake. Joining a war and committing oneself to it is based more on fundamental reasons, not on the firing range and aim of your ally. I think that the Canadians, in light of this event, should stay in, however, should they find some faults or weakness in the philosophy of the war on terrorism, that is quite another matter.

Ant.
 
Well...our poor American media showed the Govenor General of Canada visiting the wounded Canadians in the hospital in Germany. I was surprised! I didn't think we would hear any more about it...

We are not hearing about Canadian anger or people voicing opinions to pull out...I found that out from the BBC.

Oddly enough...that was one of Osama's critiques of the US.... he said a a few die and they pull out....that they were not willing to sacrifice their people for a cause...
that was just a thought that came to my mind...please don't read anything else into it...

Bush should have apologized more...send telegrams (or maybe he has...I don't know) I don't think he said a whole lot when that Australian peacekeeper was killed until that formal occaison at the White House...he made mention of it in his speech. Maybe he is waiting for another 'formal occaison' when the tv cameras and the press will be there...

dream wanderer

[This message has been edited by dream wanderer (edited 04-21-2002).]
 
Originally posted by brettig:
Juan don't you realise that:

1. Only 8/10 interferencers will know youre kidding

2. Only about 1/3 of them will find the joke funny

3. 10/10 will find it TASTELESS.


Where in that reply did i make light of war? I was trying to point out that i thought it was a dumb thing to say, sorry u didnt quite catch that...I was quite serious in giving Swallow the thumbs down. As for my other posts, where are the jokes?
 
mistake

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 04-21-2002).]
 
Ok people, I don't know if some of you are just a little too reply-happy or what, but it's painfully obvious that brettig was quite CLEARLY not making fun or making light here. Indeed, as much as I may enjoy Mr. Swallow's humour at various times in the forum, this instance was uncalled for and brettig's response was pretty much exactly what I was thinking. If you're unable to see that he's reprimanding Juan, then perhaps you should take a deep breath, go back and reread, and then take his statement at face value.
 
Well since i started this thread then didnt get back till there was 50 replies i'm kinda behind.

I really dont think canada should pull out it was just a thought. I plead for any non-canadian not to take gaberilvox's opinion as the majority in Canada. I would say Canada is pissed. I'm sure any of you could see why. 4 of our men were killed by the people that asked us to come with them. I know this wasnt intentional but it still did happen.

I think that is really making people around the country mad is that Bush made three public appearence the day after this happened he did not say one thing publicly. He did not say sorry to the Canadian public or the families. The only time he said anything is when a reporter yelled to him, "anything to say about the 4 canadians?'
Bush responded with "i talked to the prime minister this morning"

I ask you americans only one question.

If a Canadian pilot(haha the funny thing is we probably dont have 500 puind bombs) dropped a 500 pund bomb onto 30 Americans, killed 4, injured 8, this after base said not to fire. Would your view still be the same? I would say most likely. But the thing that really gets me is that if it was a Americans killed by Canadians our Prime Minister would have had a huge press confrence express his sorrow and his commitment to get to the bottom of this.

Americans always ask why everyone hates them. Well i guess your answer could be arrogance. That is what this is.

And to those people that said we dont need the US you are joking yourselves. Without them we are nothing!

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Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono
 
I'm not here to debate this and that. But I will say. I feel for the canadians on this one.America and Canada are allies, this shouldn't be about Americans this or Canadian that, it was a tragedy common to both of us.
 
Originally posted by bonoman:
And to those people that said we dont need the US you are joking yourselves. Without them we are nothing!

I don't follow that remark at all well.

Ant.
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
I don't follow that remark at all well.

Ant.

Canada is completely dependent on so much of what the US is. gabrielvox said earlier:

There are a few very good reasons why Canada is not a target for terrorism. Not that the 'reasons' the terrorists targeted the WTC could even remotely be considered valid. But when one involves themselves (some view it as an imposition) in other's affairs as much as the US historically has, one leaves themselves open to the extremist who doesn't appreciate your help, get what Im saying?


But what he fails to see is that terrorist like OBL hate Canada just the same. Canada has been refered to by many terrorist as the little devil, with the US being the Big Devil. Some Canadians live in some sort of fantasy world that without the US we could survive just fine. They are terribly mistaken. Most of all Canadian exports go to the US. The US would jump to our defense anythime.

I am angry how Bush has handled this situation or how he has'nt handled it, but i will say without the US Canada is not much of anything. Many love to hate the US, including myself at times, but its more of a jealuosy but not to that degree. This accident is terrible and there are questions to be answered but for neighbours we sure dont know when to be there for eachother sometimes.



------------------
Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono
 
Originally posted by bonoman:
Canada is completely dependent on so much of what the US is. gabrielvox said earlier:

There are a few very good reasons why Canada is not a target for terrorism. Not that the 'reasons' the terrorists targeted the WTC could even remotely be considered valid. But when one involves themselves (some view it as an imposition) in other's affairs as much as the US historically has, one leaves themselves open to the extremist who doesn't appreciate your help, get what Im saying?


But what he fails to see is that terrorist like OBL hate Canada just the same. Canada has been refered to by many terrorist as the little devil, with the US being the Big Devil. Some Canadians live in some sort of fantasy world that without the US we could survive just fine. They are terribly mistaken. Most of all Canadian exports go to the US. The US would jump to our defense anythime.

I am angry how Bush has handled this situation or how he has'nt handled it, but i will say without the US Canada is not much of anything. Many love to hate the US, including myself at times, but its more of a jealuosy but not to that degree. This accident is terrible and there are questions to be answered but for neighbours we sure dont know when to be there for eachother sometimes.

Ok. As long as you're not referring to the rest of the world, I agree with your statement.

Ant.
 
Bonoman, I appreciate your comments and your overall maturity to this issue.

I still have not heard anything about this on the news, yet I haven't watched it either.

I assume you wish there would be a statement or apology made by Bush regarding this incident.

Once again, my condolences on this horrible incident.
 
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