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Old 09-29-2001, 01:10 AM   #21
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Originally posted by STING:

The article also talks about Afghanistan by claiming they were are puppet that we left behind. When Afghanistan was first attacked by the Soviet Union, there was no USA involvement in the conflict. That came later. The article also does not mention the fact that the Soviet Afgan War did NOT end in 1989 with the pullout of Soviet troops. As late as 1991, the Soviet Airforce was still doing airstrikes in support of the Communist Government in Afganistan. In any event, US support in the region was not as great as the article and many in the media contend. It is not the end of supply of a few types of military weapons by the USA that created the instability there in the post Soviet Era.
I have to disagree with this statement. The U.S. WAS involved in Afghanistan BEFORE the Soviet attack, and this involvement actually contributed to the attack.


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Old 09-29-2001, 04:49 AM   #22
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And here i heard over and over again usa was being ignorant to the concerns of the world when it was actually protecting its own ass.
protecting it's own ass???
wow, I didn't realise the U.S. were in such an economical dire straits that you just can't afford to protect our ecological system

I guess the Kyoto agreement would 'cost' the U.S. nore than Europe (I didn't read the whole damn thing, so I'm not certain), but that could be because - right now - the U.S is a bigger polluter than Europe (if I'm not mistaken)

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Old 09-30-2001, 03:18 AM   #23
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I was a school child during the cold war....and I believe in the indoctrination theory. I don't remember being "taught' about anything negative concerning our US history. Anything negative I learned on my own. America first...America best. Very little about anyone else...

Its different now..my son said he believed the teachers were trying hard to undo all that...but emphasizing every bad thing America has ever done!

I am amused by Americans who come on the internet...are appalled to find someone critisizing America...they respond with a list of American's virtues and freedoms...and someone from the UK or Canada chimes in with "We got those too!!"

Its a bit of a stereotype...the Irish love to drink..the Italians are great lovers..the French make good food..Canadians are 'nice to a fault'....Americans are good people for the most part...but ignorant as hell...

Maybe we will outgrow it..

I for one love the ITN international news we get here on PBS...if I could get the BBC here I would watch it..

Another thing is...well...there is so much going on in our country in and of itself. Its a big country. Important country. Lots of stuff going on. Doesn't leave much time for international happenings in a 30 minute broadcast...(although they could leave out what Michael Jackson is doing...or what Michal Jordan decided. That's for the entertainment and sports shows as far as I'm concerned)

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Old 09-30-2001, 03:23 AM   #24
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I for one love the ITN international news we get here on PBS...if I could get the BBC here I would watch it..
I watched BBC a bit when I was in the U.K. for six weeks. A far different view of America than what you'll get on the U.S. networks.

I also get CBC where I'm at, and they have excellent coverage of foreign conflicts. Canadian newscasters aren't forbidden to report from the 'war zone,' like U.S. newcasters have been since the end of Vietnam (mostly because the government didn't like all the criticism), and they did some excellent coverage on Kosovo when that was happening. It's really interesting. It's quite a shame that most Americans (considering most of you aren't in or near Canada) will never see it.

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Old 09-30-2001, 04:04 PM   #25
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I too believe the Americans are ignorant. Actually if they ever realized how cruel their goverments have been to other countries for a long time, they would freak out!

But they just don't know. They hadn't even knew where Afhganistan is, until the recent events. Maybe if I was in their position, I wouldn't know it either. I wouldn't really care. The media wouldn't bother me with images of miserable people dying of starvation and poverty.

Now they all know how bad the Taliban are. When the CIA was providing them with weapons to fight against the Russians (another invisible enemy; Communism), the Taliban were good, now they became evil.

How can you expect the Americans to be aware, anyway? Their president didn't know the name of India's prime minister when they asked him two years ago...




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[This message has been edited by Sledgehammer (edited 09-30-2001).]
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Old 09-30-2001, 06:36 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sledgehammer:
I too believe the Americans are ignorant. Actually if they ever realized how cruel their goverments have been to other countries for a long time, they would freak out!

But they just don't know. They hadn't even knew where Afhganistan is, until the recent events. Maybe if I was in their position, I wouldn't know it either. I wouldn't really care. The media wouldn't bother me with images of miserable people dying of starvation and poverty.

Now they all know how bad the Taliban are. When the CIA was providing them with weapons to fight against the Russians (another invisible enemy; Communism), the Taliban were good, now they became evil.

How can you expect the Americans to be aware, anyway? Their president didn't know the name of India's prime minister when they asked him two years ago...
Sledgehammer, I fear that you are as confused as all of us Americans are.

The Taliban came into power in Afghanistan after the Soviet conflict. Of course, since I am an ignorant American, I know this only because someone else in this forum said so.
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Old 09-30-2001, 07:25 PM   #27
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Good one speedracer. Radiodivision, do you have a number as far as financial info, list of weapon systems, agents stationed in Afghanistan, that would support the idea of large US involvement in Afghanistan prior to 1978. Sure the USA was involved in even a small way in nearly every anti-communist movement on the planet at that time. But the massive support for the Afghan rebels during the 1980s, or as you say before 1980, is overblown by the media. It was sure there, but not to the extent that the media suggest. The Afghans deserve far more credit themselves for their resistance to Soviet Ocupation.
The Soviets Invaded Afghanistan because the Communist Government there was fragile and could fall at any time. This would have been the case with or without small amounts of US aid to anti-Communist forces there.
 
Old 09-30-2001, 07:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer:
The Taliban came into power in Afghanistan after the Soviet conflict.

True, there is no direct connection with the Taliban. I actually meant that all these religious extremists (including Bin Laden?), who were the Islamic leaders in the war against the Russians, were financed and armed by the CIA. And that's a fact, not an irony.



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Old 09-30-2001, 08:01 PM   #29
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Originally posted by melon:
I also get CBC where I'm at, and they have excellent coverage of foreign conflicts. Canadian newscasters aren't forbidden to report from the 'war zone,' like U.S. newcasters have been since the end of Vietnam (mostly because the government didn't like all the criticism), and they did some excellent coverage on Kosovo when that was happening. It's really interesting. It's quite a shame that most Americans (considering most of you aren't in or near Canada) will never see it.

I'm in Canada, and I wholly agree. Another thing is, CBC's Olympic coverage kicked NBC's butt. Believe it or not, we actually saw the events live! *Gasp*

Also, now in Canada, the BBC is available if you have a digital TV box.

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Old 09-30-2001, 08:13 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sledgehammer:

True, there is no direct connection with the Taliban. I actually meant that all these religious extremists (including Bin Laden?), who were the Islamic leaders in the war against the Russians, were financed and armed by the CIA. And that's a fact, not an irony.
Ok.

Still, I don't think you're proving that the American public and politicians are dumb. What you're proving is that politics in the Middle East are far more complicated and messy than we think.
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Old 09-30-2001, 09:53 PM   #31
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Again,
Its not a fact that everything the Rebels in Afghanistan used came from the CIA. It is of course widely reported that the Stinger Anti-Aircraft rocket was provided to the Afghan rebels. Beyond that though, its difficult to name any US weapons that were in the use of Afghan rebels. In nearly all documentary footage, Afghan rebels are shown with AK-47s not M-16s, and RPGs not the Dragon or US grenade launchers. Of course the US helped, but not to the extent that the media suggest.
Also, Bin Laden was primarily a business man who supplied money during the war for the rebels, not a famous military figure that many in the media have claimed him to be. In fact, Bin Laden was only involved in maybe four battles during the entire Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan. He only only played a very minor role.
 
Old 10-01-2001, 04:08 AM   #32
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BBC is the cream of news coverage and everything else. If you can receive it, I highly recommend it.
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Old 10-01-2001, 10:10 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sledgehammer:
But they just don't know. They hadn't even knew where Afhganistan is, until the recent events. Maybe if I was in their position, I wouldn't know it either. I wouldn't really care. The media wouldn't bother me with images of miserable people dying of starvation and poverty.
Hey, I posted a new thread entitled Bush Authorizes Aid For Afghan Refugees.



[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 10-01-2001).]
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Old 10-01-2001, 09:00 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING:
Good one speedracer. Radiodivision, do you have a number as far as financial info, list of weapon systems, agents stationed in Afghanistan, that would support the idea of large US involvement in Afghanistan prior to 1978. Sure the USA was involved in even a small way in nearly every anti-communist movement on the planet at that time. But the massive support for the Afghan rebels during the 1980s, or as you say before 1980, is overblown by the media. It was sure there, but not to the extent that the media suggest. The Afghans deserve far more credit themselves for their resistance to Soviet Ocupation.
The Soviets Invaded Afghanistan because the Communist Government there was fragile and could fall at any time. This would have been the case with or without small amounts of US aid to anti-Communist forces there.
STING,

The purpose of my post was to correct the statement you made regarding US involvement in Afghanistan (you claimed that there was US involvement only AFTER the Soviet attack). I did not say that the involvement was large only that it was there. Specifically, Zbigniew Brzezinski (national security adviser to Jimmy Carter at the time) has admitted in a 1998 interview that the official story that the US provided military aid to the Afghanistan opposition only after the Soviet invasion in 1979 was a lie. What actually happened was that the US began helping the Islamic fundamentalist Moujahedeen six months before the Soviet Union invaded, even though he believed (and told this to Carter) that "this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention." (source is Le Nouvel Observateur (France) Jan. 15-21, 1998, p. 76)

Now, you can argue whether the US aid was THE cause of the invasion or not, but there is no doubt that US involvement was present.

[This message has been edited by radiodivision (edited 10-01-2001).]
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Old 10-01-2001, 09:23 PM   #35
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If a tree fell on Sledgehammer in the woods and no one was there to hear it would anybody care?

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Old 10-01-2001, 09:55 PM   #36
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If a tree fell on Sledgehammer in the woods and no one was there to hear it would anybody care?
Philosophical reasoning will not resolve this matter. It must be tested experimentally.

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 10-01-2001).]
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Old 10-01-2001, 10:29 PM   #37
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Radiodivision,
My main point really is that the aid we provided Afghan Rebels before or after the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan did not substantialy alter the conflict. Tensions between Islamic Fundamentalist in rural area's and the government in Kabul existed years before the Soviet Invasion.
 
Old 10-02-2001, 02:31 AM   #38
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Originally posted by Matthew_Page2000:
If a tree fell on Sledgehammer in the woods and no one was there to hear it would anybody care?

MP
The American government would care. Echelon would hear it.

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[This message has been edited by Sledgehammer (edited 10-02-2001).]
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Old 10-05-2001, 12:13 AM   #39
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Regarding the "dumbing down"...a couple things come to mind :

1."Numb" by U2

2. "1984" -- I forget the author, but it was written in 1948...things aren't to the extreme described in the book, but it's getting there...

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Old 10-05-2001, 03:46 AM   #40
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2. "1984" -- I forget the author, but it was written in 1948...things aren't to the extreme described in the book, but it's getting there...

George Orwell.

"I sometimes think that the price of liberty is not so much eternal vigilance as eternal dirt."


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