Al-Qaeda captures two American soldiers

[Irvine511]

[q]Al Qaeda says has abducted two US soldiers By Michael Georgy and Ibon Villelabeitia
Mon Jun 19, 9:55 AM ET



BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A group linked to Iraq's al Qaeda said on Monday it had abducted two American soldiers south of Baghdad, according to a statement posted on the Internet.

"Your brothers in the military wing of the Mujahideen Shura Council kidnapped two American soldiers near Yusufiya," the Sunni Arab group said. "We will provide you with more details about the incident in the next coming days."

In Baghdad's fortified Green Zone, Saddam Hussein, whose loyalists make up much of the Sunni insurgency, listened to the chief prosecutor in his trial demand that he be sentenced to death for the killing of 148 Shi'ites in the 1980s.

The al Qaeda statement came as 8,000 U.S. and Iraqi forces searched for the two U.S. soldiers, who went missing on Friday after an attack on a checkpoint that killed another soldier.

The missing soldiers have been identified as Private Thomas Lowell Tucker, 25, from Madras, Oregon and Private Kristian Menchaca, 23, from Houston, Texas.

Al Qaeda vowed to hit back after its leader in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, was killed in a U.S. air strike on June 7.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060619/ts_nm/iraq_dc_61

[/q]



my question: can we blame anyone but ourselves if we find that they have been tortured?

 

[nbcrusader]

my question: can we blame anyone but ourselves if we find that they have been tortured?

Why do we consistently marginalize the evil of others through self flagellation?

 

[A_Wanderer]

my question: can we blame anyone but ourselves if we find that they have been tortured?

I don't think that "we" factors into this, I blame whichever Muslim terrorist group does it and you have qualified an argument that Abu Ghraib and rendition makes these groups more inclined to torture captured soldiers.

I think that they were already doing it and more before Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[Irvine511]

Re: Re: Al-Qaeda captures two American soldiers

Why do we consistently marginalize the evil of others through self flagellation?

by torturing others, do we not ask for ourselves to be tortured?

how evil are the others when we have committed the same evil unto others?

do we reap what we sow?

why must american soldiers potentially pay the price for Cheney's policies?

 

[nbcrusader]

This is what drives the blame America first crowd.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Rest in peace Thomas and Kristian

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The bodies of two U.S. soldiers who went missing after an attack on their checkpoint have been found, an Iraqi defense official said on Tuesday.

The U.S. military had launched an intensive hunt for the soldiers involving aircraft and thousands of troops after vowing not to leave them "out there." U.S. military officials in Baghdad had no immediate comment, but CNN said the Pentagon had confirmed the discovery of two unidentified bodies.

The discovery came as more bomb blasts shook Baghdad, killing nine people despite a security clampdown. The U.S. military also said troops hunting insurgents linked to al Qaeda had killed 15 gunmen in raids north of the capital.

Senior Iraqi Defense Ministry official Major General Abdul Aziz Mohammed said the bodies of Privates Thomas Lowell Tucker, 25, and Kristian Menchaca, 23, were found near an electricity plant in Yusufiya, the area in which they were abducted.

He did not say when the soldiers were killed nor when their bodies were found. Fox News Channel said the bodies showed signs of torture, citing reports to Iraqi Defense Ministry officials by civilians who found them.

The Mujahideen Shura Council, an umbrella body of insurgent groups led by al Qaeda, claimed in an Internet posting on Monday to have abducted the two men. However, it provided no video nor documentary evidence that it was holding them and some U.S. officials cast doubt on the statement.

The two went missing at dusk on Friday after an ambush at a checkpoint in Yusufiya, a town in an area south of Baghdad some Iraqis call the "Triangle of Death," which is an al Qaeda stronghold. Another soldier was killed in the attack.

 

[Irvine511]

This is what drives the blame America first crowd.

and the willingness to excuse and condone torture while viewing self-reflection as a sign of weakness is what drives the neocon New American Century imperialistic nationalism that got us into this mess in the first place.

perhaps some are happy to become a monster to defeat a monster, but i'm not interested in turning into a reflection of the USSR with our Gitmo gulags, secret torture chambers, and ideological warfare.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

The bodies showed signs of "barbaric torture" when they were found by American and Iraqi troops on Monday, a senior Iraqi general told Reuters on Tuesday.

"The two soldiers were found yesterday by a combined U.S.- Iraqi force. We found they had been tortured in a barbaric fashion," Major General Abdul Aziz Mohammed said.

They will be flown to the military's forensics lab in Dover, Del. for autopsies and to make positive identifications, U.S. military officials said. Any formal declaration of death will be withheld until the bodies are positively identified.

U.S. soldiers found the bodies based on a tip from a reliable Iraqi source, military officials told NBC News. U.S. forces had to literally fight their way to the bodies; enemy forces laid a series of improvised explosive devices, also known as IED's, on the primary route to the bodies.

 

[Irvine511]

The bodies showed signs of "barbaric torture" when they were found by American and Iraqi troops on Monday, a senior Iraqi general told Reuters on Tuesday.

"The two soldiers were found yesterday by a combined U.S.- Iraqi force. We found they had been tortured in a barbaric fashion," Major General Abdul Aziz Mohammed said.

i'm glad these men suffered so the Cheney/Rumsfeld/Gonzales crowd could torture.



this is deeply upsetting.

 

[Justin24]

I know I am going to go off the deep end here. This pisses me off, what happened to these two men. I would say fuck rules of war against your enemy and I say torture, behead or whatever. Fucking Extremist pigs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When I talked with a janitor I used to work with he said the Bible is different than that if the Koran due to translation. Well I would say the same thing about islam and how fucked up it's becoming because of uneducated fuck tards like these Monsterous Humans!!!

 

[Irvine511]

I know I am going to go off the deep end here. This pisses me off, what happened to these two men. I would say fuck rules of war against your enemy and I say torture, behead or whatever. Fucking Extremist pigs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When I talked with a janitor I used to work with he said the Bible is different than that if the Koran due to translation. Well I would say the same thing about islam and how fucked up it's becoming because of uneducated fuck tards like these Monsterous Humans!!!

wouldn't that make them more likely to "torture, behead or whatever" the next American soldiers to get captured?

 

[Justin24]

I am sure it would, but since they have no rules to follow, we should unleash as much hell as they do, with out killing or injuring civilians.

 

[Irvine511]

I am sure it would, but since they have no rules to follow, we should unleash as much hell as they do, with out killing or injuring civilians.

so our way of life, the democracy we are trying to instill, Western liberal values -- none of this matters anymore.

we should just kill them.

 

[Justin24]

The insurgents. We all know Democracy may never work in that region of the world. They would rather live by Islamic Law.

 

[DrTeeth]

It's absolutely horrible what happened to these men. Situations like these make me glad I've always been consistenly against torture.

 

[Justin24]

I admitted a while ago of being for Torture. I am kind of against it now. But these insurgents must pay for there actions and I would hope they die in a brutal way.

 

[DrTeeth]

I admitted a while ago of being for Torture. I am kind of against it now. But these insurgents must pay for there actions and I would hope they die in a brutal way.

Until Americans die in a brutal way, and you'll be flip flopping again? Would it be too much to ask to think these things through before any incidents occur?

 

[nbcrusader]

wouldn't that make them more likely to "torture, behead or whatever" the next American soldiers to get captured?

With this line of thinking, I would expect to see sympathy and understanding for the soldiers involved in the Haditha matter.

 

[Justin24]

My point is, why should we in a war situation have to be humane to our enemy( Al-Qaeda, Taliban etc) such as giving them medical attention if they are wounded. These insurgents show no remorse for anyone and believe this is the will of Allah.

 

[DrTeeth]

My point is, why should we in a war situation have to be humane to our enemy( Al-Qaeda, Taliban etc) such as giving them medical attention if they are wounded. These insurgents show no remorse for anyone and believe this is the will of Allah.

Do your standards depend on that of your enemy or do you follow your own path?

 

[Justin24]

Follow my own path.

 

[tackleberry]

My point is, why should we in a war situation have to be humane to our enemy( Al-Qaeda, Taliban etc) such as giving them medical attention if they are wounded. These insurgents show no remorse for anyone and believe this is the will of Allah.

How is this going to help us in any way? How is this going to help anyone? What would we or anyone get out of this way of acting?

 

[Irvine511]

With this line of thinking, I would expect to see sympathy and understanding for the soldiers involved in the Haditha matter.

ah, the "matter" (not the massacre).

please explain this line of thinking, as it is lost on me.

are we now creating moral equivalency between American soldiers and insurgents? is one no better than the other? is our way of life really no better than either an Islamist theocracy or a murderous dictatorship? are American soldiers not bound by any rules at all like the insurgents they are battling.

i suppose this falls into the line of thought that seeks to prove that killing is wrong by killing people, or that would torture the torturers.

 

[Justin24]

How is this going to help us in any way? How is this going to help anyone? What would we or anyone get out of this way of acting?

By not helping them if they are injured, it could result in the death of your enemy, if we were to help them we would still be an "infedel" in there eyes and they would still want us dead. The US miltary needs to adapt in fighting this new kind of war, no remose from them should mean no remose for them.

what I would like to know is, the videos I have seen of Al-Qaedas number 2 man, he says he wants the west out of the middle east. If the US were to completly pull out of the middle east, would that cease any future terrorist attacks?

 

[nbcrusader]

please explain this line of thinking, as it is lost on me.

are we now creating moral equivalency between American soldiers and insurgents? is one no better than the other? is our way of life really no better than either an Islamist theocracy or a murderous dictatorship? are American soldiers not bound by any rules at all like the insurgents they are battling.

i suppose this falls into the line of thought that seeks to prove that killing is wrong by killing people, or that would torture the torturers.

Good starting point. I see how your line of thinking can progress if we assume that the US is capable of a higher level of moral behavior than ___ (insurgents, Iraqis, muslims??). Can you define the relative moral levels so we can proceed with the comparison?

 

[Justin24]

I was watching a video on ABCnews.com and they said the soldiers had been shot, tortured and beheaded.

I wonder if God really is happy since thats what the twisted version of Islam thinks.

 

[tackleberry]

By not helping them if they are injured, it could result in the death of your enemy, if we were to help them we would still be an "infedel" in there eyes and they would still want us dead. The US miltary needs to adapt in fighting this new kind of war, no remose from them should mean no remose for them.

what I would like to know is, the videos I have seen of Al-Qaedas number 2 man, he says he wants the west out of the middle east. If the US were to completly pull out of the middle east, would that cease any future terrorist attacks?

So, Torturing and killing them all would prevent future terrorist attacks??

Let me do some math...

They kill 3 of our folks
We kill 7 of their folks

They kill 17 more of our people
We kill 16 more of their people

We kill their number one guy
They kill 2 of our soldiers

They get a new number 1 guy (which we kill)
Then they kill 3 more soldiers

Then they get another number 1 guy...(etc..)

This equals=
25 Good guys dead
25 Bad guys dead

Looks like the cycle of violence is NOT such a good solution.

And I'm still wondering how torturing them would give us anything in return?

 

[Justin24]

There is a 50/50 chance we could get some valuable info out torturing. Can I hear your opinon on how to stop this. And no saying "well we should have not gone in the first place." As that is to late since we are there already.

 

[Irvine511]

Good starting point. I see how your line of thinking can progress if we assume that the US is capable of a higher level of moral behavior than ___ (insurgents, Iraqis, muslims??). Can you define the relative moral levels so we can proceed with the comparison?

this seems like a condescending distraction from the issue at hand which is whether or not the torture policy of Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Gonzales, has made American troops less safe, as well as whether or not it has cheapened what it is they are fighting for. we have abuse by American forces documented in every field of conflict, and the current international moral standing of the United States at its lowest point since Vietnam, possibly ever. these policies have deeply tarnished U.S. prestige abroad, inhibited cooperation with allies and prevented justice for al-Qaeda. not only must the US now battle Islamist terror, but we must now battle to protect the constitution and the Geneva Conventions from those who would bypass them to protect us.

both, seem to me, to be defenses of our civilization, which is what we have been told is threatened by the Islamists who attacked us on 9-11 and is why we fight.

as for the assumption that the US is capable of a higher level of moral behavior than it's enemies, well this has been a working assumption about the US for a century and it reached its apex in WW2 when, by and large, captured POWs were treated with fairness by US forces. we don't kill indisciminately, we don't behead prisoners.

we are also the occupiers. how are we to create any sort of moral justification for the unprovoked invasion of a soverign nation (and rational for all the speachifying about Iraqi democracy and Muslim democacy and how democracy is god's gift to humanity) if we cannot present a more moral alternative to the government we disposed?

unless this is just about oil and military bases, in which case, who cares who gets tortured and killed. if there's no ideology at stake, if there's nothing about this war than a simple land grab and oil field consolidation, then i suppose we shouldn't worry about morality.

 

[tackleberry]

There is a 50/50 chance we could get some valuable info out torturing. Can I hear your opinon on how to stop this. And no saying "well we should have not gone in the first place." As that is to late since we are there already.

No, I'm not going to say we should have not gone there in the 1st nor will I say we should just "Bring the Troops Home" That's wrong.

My opinion is this: Don't torture them. Treat them like humans. Give them a trial. Show them what democracy really is. Take the higher road, and stop the cycle of violence. Fight the violence with Non-violence. MLK did this. Ghandi did this.

Change our foreign policy to a more globally aware policy, rather than going in for our own selfish interests. If we are going to police the world, then I think we should do this by setting a non-violent standard. I believe others will follow.

I am not saying what they are doing is right in any way, and I certainly do not support it. However, I think the only way to persuade is to be the adult, and that would be taking the higher road. If a child smashes the foot of a stranger, do you smash the foot of the child to show him up and prove that its wrong? Or do you set an EXAMPLE by being kind to others, and NOT smashing their feet?