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Old 09-20-2007, 12:57 PM   #21
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Yeah, I mean, they can't really stop him from going I suppose. Though that security detail might be necessary...I can picture someone trying to pick him off.
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Old 09-20-2007, 02:33 PM   #22
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(New York - WABC, September 19, 2007) - Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad requested to visit Ground Zero during an upcoming trip to New York. That request was rejected Wednesday. But a source tells Eyewitness News that the decision may not stop him.

A law enforcement source says the Iranian mission to the United Nations has informed the Secret Service that the Iranian president intends to visit Ground Zero Monday at 10 a.m.
The source says regardless of the NYPD's rejection of the request for a Ground Zero tour, Iran's president and his entourage will be accompanied by a Secret Service protective detail, a detail provided to all heads of state when they visit the United States.

yeah that was my other thought....what if some idiot----an American I mean, acts out against him and does something? Just by having secret service or police escourts or both doesnt really ensure that some psycho's not going to still try something whether it be up close or from far away....and who's to say they wouldnt hurt him or worse?

I think if I were him I'd realize for my own safety and for respect for the American people---one way or another---I would stay away.
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Old 09-21-2007, 03:24 AM   #23
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I think he should be able to. He should apologize for denying the Holocaust, but his aspirations are nothing like Al Qaeda's. As usual, NYC politicians don't like Muslims if they stand up for themselves. Giuliani kicked Arafat at a concert in NYC, while he has no problem with mass murdering Israeli heads of state. So typical of New York. They mistake not being anti-semitic with supporting Israel unwaveringly, no matter what cruel deeds it commits. I wish the popular phrase referring to the terrible genocide of Europe's Jewry by Christians, "Never again!" would be applied to other peoples. Just because attrocities don't happen to Jews or if Jews are committing them makes those attrocities no less deplorable and immoral.
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Old 09-21-2007, 05:32 AM   #24
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Originally posted by Muldfeld
I think he should be able to. He should apologize for denying the Holocaust, but his aspirations are nothing like Al Qaeda's.
Muldfeld, he said Israel should be wiped off the map.
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Old 09-21-2007, 07:23 AM   #25
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Originally posted by Muldfeld
I think he should be able to. He should apologize for denying the Holocaust, but his aspirations are nothing like Al Qaeda's. As usual, NYC politicians don't like Muslims if they stand up for themselves. Giuliani kicked Arafat at a concert in NYC, while he has no problem with mass murdering Israeli heads of state. So typical of New York. They mistake not being anti-semitic with supporting Israel unwaveringly, no matter what cruel deeds it commits. I wish the popular phrase referring to the terrible genocide of Europe's Jewry by Christians, "Never again!" would be applied to other peoples. Just because attrocities don't happen to Jews or if Jews are committing them makes those attrocities no less deplorable and immoral.


you keep insisting you're not anti-semetic, and i agree that objecting to some of Israel's tactics shouldn't get one labled as such, but throwing out phrases such as "so typical of New York" really doesn't do much to counter the perception that you aren't just anti-Israeli, you are also anti-semetic (and saying that the Holocaust was A Bad Thing doesn't cover your ass).

most people have quite nuanced positions on this topic, and the refusal to view suicide bombing as a legitimate means of "standing up for [your]self" isn't anti-Palestinian either.

my only question is why this particular topic consumes so much of the global landscape. there are many, many more groups who live under far more repressive conditions than the Palestinians (not that anyone should be repressed, but group suffering is hardly known only to Palestinians), and yet none of them get 1/10th the attention that this little strip of desert gets.
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Old 09-21-2007, 07:29 AM   #26
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I don't like the man, but he should be able to do this, if innocent Iranians were killed in the attacks, then there's no reason why the Americans should get so high and mighty - after all, I'm sure he just wants to make a nice little tribute.

The US shouldn't offend Iran, even though many Iranians aren't particularly fond of their leader - but I think this might show a little of his better side.
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Old 09-21-2007, 07:57 AM   #27
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He will talk about it on 60 Minutes Sunday. He wants to go there to "air his views about the root causes". Uh, I don't think so-not appropriate. For me it's about 90 % of me that says no, 10 % holds out hope for pure motives and genuine compassion and humanity. If he just wanted to pay respects he wouldn't say anything about root causes-save that for the UN.

(CBS) Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will not press his plan -- just denied by New York City police for security reasons -- to visit ground zero in New York City, he tells 60 Minutes' Scott Pelley in an exclusive interview conducted Thursday in Iran.

The Iranian leader says he's skeptical that most Americans view his visit there as insulting as his intention was only to show respect. The interview will be broadcast Sunday, Sept. 23, at 7 p.m. ET/PT.

Asked if he intends to press his request to visit the World Trade Center site, Ahmadinejad tells Pelley, "Well, it was included in my program. If we have the time and the conditions are conducive, I will try to do that."

"But the New York Police Department and others do not appear to want you there. Do you intend to go there anyway?" Pelley asks.

"Well, over there, local officials need to make the necessary coordinations. If they can't do that, I won't insist," the president replies.

"Sir, what were you thinking? The World Trade Center site is the most sensitive place in the American heart, and you must have known that visiting there would be insulting to many, many Americans," Pelley says.

"Why should it be insulting?" Ahmadinejad asks.

"Well, sir, you're the head of government of an Islamist state that the United States government says is a major exporter of terrorism around the world," Pelley says.

"Well, I wouldn't say that what American government says is is the prerequisite here. Something happened there which led to other events. Many innocent people were killed there. Some of those people were American citizens obviously. We obviously are very much against any terrorist action and any killing. And also we are very much against any plots to sow the seeds of discord among nations," Ahmadinejad replies. "Usually you go to these sites to pay your respects. And also to perhaps to air your views about the root causes of such incidents. I think that when I do that, I will be paying, as I said earlier, my respect to the American nation."

"But the American people, sir, believe that your country is a terrorist nation, exporting terrorism in the world," Pelley says. "You must have known that visiting the World Trade Center site would infuriate many Americans."

"Well, I'm amazed. How can you speak for the whole of the American nation?" Ahmadinejad says. "You are representing a media and you're a reporter. The American nation is made up of 300 million people. There are different points of view over there."
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Old 09-21-2007, 11:03 AM   #28
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I agree that letting him go there would be like letting Hitler visit Yad Vashem in Jerusalem.
Uhm, I don't see the Iranian president quite in the same league as a person who exterminated 6 million jews. He had nothing to do with September 11th, he should be free to go and have a look.

The thing is here - yes he is an enabler of terrorism, but then so is America. No ones hands are clean, and if George Bush can visit Iraq, where he has had a lot more to do with the bloodshed and horror thats gone on in that country, then the Iranian president can do what ever he damn well pleases. If he wants to go a lay a wreath or pay his respects, why stop him? He can only do it if he panders to america wishes, without any concession of their own?

I don't know, it just seems like it could be a move in the right direction, have americans who know shit about anything seeing a muslim leader paying his respects at ground zero - perhaps open up some dialogue instead of screeching about terrorism and some wacko taking pot shots at him in the name of national american pride.
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Old 09-21-2007, 03:14 PM   #29
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He knows whats going on, finger on the pulse of the zionist betrayal
Quote:
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: We declare that since our [nuclear] project is for peaceful purposes, we are prepared to provide – under IAEA supervision – technical and engineering services to the other IAEA members. We can guide them, so that other too can use nuclear technology for peaceful purposes.
[...]
Journalist: What would you say to people who are concerned that a possible attack [against Iran] would be very bad? Thank you.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: In my opinion, the premise of this analysis is wrong. In Iran, there are hardly any such people. Even if there are any such people, they are so few that they drown in the sea of Iranian people. If you want to see how happy the Iranians are, take a look at Iran’s streets, places of entertainment, and centers of tourism. The Iranian people is not worried about such things at all. The reason is clear: The Iranian people relies upon its faith, its unity, its national capabilities, and its culture, and therefore, it is invincible.
[...]
I state categorically that there is no chance that America will make such a decision, and that even if it does, it will be incapable of carrying it out. The reasons are so clear that they don’t need to be mentioned.
[...]
Journalist: You said that Iran does not anticipate a military attack, but Mr. Sarkozy, the president of France, indicated yesterday that if Iran continues its nuclear project, there is a possibility of a military attack. What do you think about this?

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: According to our assessment, because he is new, he is trying to position himself in the world, but he hasn’t yet tested the waters. In other words, he may not be aware of the significance of what he said. Besides, in our opinion, he said this for domestic consumption. Politically, this is too trivial for us to even think about.
[....]
A government functions like a football team. It is team work. The president is the coach of the team. No player who enters the field can say he must remain there the entire 90 minutes. The coach examines the game, and changes the formation. This is because the team has to win. Pay attention. The group has to achieve several targets. The coach sees this, and at that moment, he can change the formation and even the tactics, but the goal and the path remain the same. He may change the tactics and the formation, and may take out some of the players from the field, and bring on new ones instead.
[...]
In principle, the Zionists lack any religion. They are lying when they say that they are Jews. They have no religion. They are against religion, because religion means friendship, brotherhood, peace, and justice. Religion means to respect the divine prophets. Note this. Religion means to respect others. It means friendship between peoples. Note that wherever the Zionists are, there is war, and wherever there is war, they are the ones behind it. As a matter of fact, if you examine American society, you will see that they oppress the Americans. They oppress the Europeans, even though they are a minority. They infiltrated in an organized manner... No more than 10,000 of them are part of the organization, and the rest just follow them. But they have become a powerful underground political party, which has the money and the media at its disposal. They do not want friendship and peace between peoples. They do not want there to be friendship between the Swedish government and other countries. This way they get rid of their complexes about the Prophet of Islam and all other prophets. As you know, an affront to the Prophet of Islam means an affront to all the divine prophets, because the Prophet of Islam is the Seal of the Prophets.

[...]
Therefore, because the Zionists have no religion, I strongly suspect that they are behind [the Swedish cartoon], and that they want to embarrass the Europeans, and make the European governments face a challenge. They want to instigate a war, because war is the essence of their existence. If the world is calm, the people of Europe the Germans... If the world is calm, they will eradicate the Zionists. I’m convinced of this. Do you know how many messages I get from Germans every day? They have an aversion to the Zionists. The Zionists humiliated the German people very much. But the Zionists are in control. The moment the world is calm and people can express their views, you will see that they will drive them out of Europe. The people of Europe themselves will drive them out. The [Zionists] do not want such a thing to happen, and that’s why they instigate new turmoil every day.

[...]
When Mr. Putin met me in Bishkek, he told me that they would complete the reactor in Bushehr as planned. In opinion, Mr. Putin and the Russian government are standing by these statements, and they will complete the reactor. We are not worried about this.
link

Progressive minded leader like that, I am sure his message will be heard.
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Old 09-21-2007, 08:18 PM   #30
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Originally posted by Irvine511
you keep insisting you're not anti-semetic, and i agree that objecting to some of Israel's tactics shouldn't get one labled as such, but throwing out phrases such as "so typical of New York"
Mudfeld's statement:- "As usual, NYC politicians don't like Muslims if they stand up for themselves. Giuliani kicked Arafat at a concert in NYC, while he has no problem with mass murdering Israeli heads of state. So typical of New York" was a bit of an overgeneralisation, IMO. But I wouldn't hugely disagree with its general thrust.

I would venture that the three most well known New York politicians at the moment are Hilary Clinton, Rudi Giuliani and Michael Bloomberg - each one of them pretty strongly pro-Zionist. One is current Mayor, another a former Mayor and one is an elected Senator and married to a former President. Not uninfluentual people, it's fair to say. And all three are potential Presidential candidates.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
really doesn't do much to counter the perception that you aren't just anti-Israeli, you are also anti-semetic
I think that's an unfair thing to say.

Your comment seems to assume that there are FYM'ers who already have a perception of Mudfeld as not "just anti-Israeli" but "also anti-semetic".

Whose perception, precisely, are we talking about here? On the basis of what Mudfeld has said in this thread, I don't have any such perception - do you? If you do, can you explain why?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Irvine511
Quote:
[i](and saying that the Holocaust was A Bad Thing doesn't cover your ass).
From Mudfeld's post:- " I wish the popular phrase referring to the terrible genocide of Europe's Jewry by Christians, "Never again!" would be applied to other peoples."

It seems to me that that's a fairly strong statement of expression of disgust for the war crimes committed by the Nazis, and it's a long way from your implication that Mudfeld only stated that the Holocaust was "A Bad Thing" to "cover his ass".

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
most people have quite nuanced positions on this topic, and the refusal to view suicide bombing as a legitimate means of "standing up for [your]self" isn't anti-Palestinian either.
Agreed. Imams brainwashing teenagers and young adults into becoming suicide bombers is thoroughly revolting.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
there are many, many more groups who live under far more repressive conditions than the Palestinians (not that anyone should be repressed, but group suffering is hardly known only to Palestinians), and yet none of them get 1/10th the attention that this little strip of desert gets.
Can you give some examples? And is anyone seriously claiming that group suffering is known only to Palestinians?
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Old 09-22-2007, 08:40 AM   #31
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He will talk about it on 60 Minutes Sunday. He wants to go there to "air his views about the root causes". Uh, I don't think so-not appropriate. For me it's about 90 % of me that says no, 10 % holds out hope for pure motives and genuine compassion and humanity. If he just wanted to pay respects he wouldn't say anything about root causes-save that for the UN.

(CBS) Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will not press his plan -- just denied by New York City police for security reasons -- to visit ground zero in New York City, he tells 60 Minutes' Scott Pelley in an exclusive interview conducted Thursday in Iran.

The Iranian leader says he's skeptical that most Americans view his visit there as insulting as his intention was only to show respect. The interview will be broadcast Sunday, Sept. 23, at 7 p.m. ET/PT.

Asked if he intends to press his request to visit the World Trade Center site, Ahmadinejad tells Pelley, "Well, it was included in my program. If we have the time and the conditions are conducive, I will try to do that."

"But the New York Police Department and others do not appear to want you there. Do you intend to go there anyway?" Pelley asks.

"Well, over there, local officials need to make the necessary coordinations. If they can't do that, I won't insist," the president replies.

"Sir, what were you thinking? The World Trade Center site is the most sensitive place in the American heart, and you must have known that visiting there would be insulting to many, many Americans," Pelley says.

"Why should it be insulting?" Ahmadinejad asks.

"Well, sir, you're the head of government of an Islamist state that the United States government says is a major exporter of terrorism around the world," Pelley says.

"Well, I wouldn't say that what American government says is is the prerequisite here. Something happened there which led to other events. Many innocent people were killed there. Some of those people were American citizens obviously. We obviously are very much against any terrorist action and any killing. And also we are very much against any plots to sow the seeds of discord among nations," Ahmadinejad replies. "Usually you go to these sites to pay your respects. And also to perhaps to air your views about the root causes of such incidents. I think that when I do that, I will be paying, as I said earlier, my respect to the American nation."

"But the American people, sir, believe that your country is a terrorist nation, exporting terrorism in the world," Pelley says. "You must have known that visiting the World Trade Center site would infuriate many Americans."

"Well, I'm amazed. How can you speak for the whole of the American nation?" Ahmadinejad says. "You are representing a media and you're a reporter. The American nation is made up of 300 million people. There are different points of view over there."
Eh, I don't know. . .I think this interviewer comes off a bit ludicrous.

"Hey, don't you know you're one of the Bad Guys? You're not allowed to go there. Haven't you read your script?. . .No, no, it says right here, you're Evil! You hate freedom, you're not supposed to go there!"

I think the worst Ahmadinejad could do is get to Ground Zero and start making some grandstanding, zealous speech about the "root causes." That would be quite offensive. But to me, banning him from the site STILL seems like, I don't know, a bit of over-reaction. I think we, as a nation can have the dignity and the grace to allow this guy to visit the site.
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Old 09-22-2007, 09:05 AM   #32
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NEW YORK (AP) - Columbia University said it does not plan to call off a speech by Iran's president despite pressure from critics including the City Council speaker, who said the Ivy League school was providing a forum for "hate-mongering vitriol."

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is traveling to New York to address the United Nations' General Assembly. He was to appear Monday at a question-and- answer session with Columbia faculty and students as part of the school's World Leaders Forum.

The State Department calls Iran a state sponsor of terror, and Ahmadinejad has called the Holocaust "a myth" and urged for Israel to be destroyed.

City Council speaker Christine Quinn called Thursday for the university to rescind the invitation, saying "the idea of Ahmadinejad as an honored guest anywhere in our city is offensive to all New Yorkers."

Quinn, a Democrat, said Ahmadinejad was coming to the city "for one reason—to spread his hate-mongering vitriol on the world stage."

His planned appearance at Columbia also was condemned by Jewish groups including the Jewish Defense Organization, which described Ahmadinejad as "the Hitler of Iran."

Columbia spokesman Robert Hornsby said Thursday there was no plan to cancel the appearance, though the university dropped plans for an Ahmadinejad speech last year because of security and logistical problems. The decision came after a Jewish activist group expressed outrage over the invitation.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg said Friday that the university was free to invite Ahmadinejad to speak, but "personally, I wouldn't go to listen to him—I don't care about what he says."

White House deputy press secretary Tony Fratto said Friday that the Bush administration had no involvement with Columbia's decision.

"This is a country where people can come and speak their minds," he said, adding, "It would be wonderful if some of the countries that take advantage of that here allowed it for their own citizens there."

Columbia President Lee Bollinger, in announcing Ahmadinejad's upcoming appearance, described the event as part of "Columbia's long-standing tradition of serving as a major forum for robust debate." He said the Iranian president had agreed to answer questions on Israel and the Holocaust.
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Old 09-22-2007, 11:05 PM   #33
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Columbia University should be ashamed of itself. I'm tired of the "shades of gray" in this world. Why would anyone give this idiot a plaform to speak? And please don't give me the freedom of speech argument. This guy isn't an american, he is the president of a country who doesn't have freedoms of press and religion. Try being openly gay in Tehran. See where that gets ya! I'm shocked more liberals aren't fired up about this guys agenda when he gets here. Why? oh, thats right, we have to be TOLERANT. Well, I'm not tolerant of this idiot. This man is dangerous, his country is involved directly in the killing of US service members, and he wants to come to ground zero? I hope he is taken care of in a New York minute....
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Old 09-23-2007, 12:03 AM   #34
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Asked if he intends to press his request to visit the World Trade Center site, Ahmadinejad tells Pelley, "Well, it was included in my program. If we have the time and the conditions are conducive, I will try to do that."

"But the New York Police Department and others do not appear to want you there. Do you intend to go there anyway?" Pelley asks.

"Well, over there, local officials need to make the necessary coordinations. If they can't do that, I won't insist," the president replies.

"Sir, what were you thinking? The World Trade Center site is the most sensitive place in the American heart, and you must have known that visiting there would be insulting to many, many Americans," Pelley says.

"Why should it be insulting?" Ahmadinejad asks.

"Well, sir, you're the head of government of an Islamist state that the United States government says is a major exporter of terrorism around the world," Pelley says.

"Well, I wouldn't say that what American government says is is the prerequisite here. Something happened there which led to other events. Many innocent people were killed there. Some of those people were American citizens obviously. We obviously are very much against any terrorist action and any killing. And also we are very much against any plots to sow the seeds of discord among nations," Ahmadinejad replies. "Usually you go to these sites to pay your respects. And also to perhaps to air your views about the root causes of such incidents. I think that when I do that, I will be paying, as I said earlier, my respect to the American nation."

"But the American people, sir, believe that your country is a terrorist nation, exporting terrorism in the world," Pelley says. "You must have known that visiting the World Trade Center site would infuriate many Americans."

"Well, I'm amazed. How can you speak for the whole of the American nation?" Ahmadinejad says. "You are representing a media and you're a reporter. The American nation is made up of 300 million people. There are different points of view over there."
Frankly, Ahmadinejad comes off as more rational than the "what were you thinking?" interviewer.

And in any case, if we're going to keep up the "Iran is a terrorist state" line of discussion, it's worth remembering that the real power in Iran belongs to Ayatollah Khamenei.
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Old 09-23-2007, 01:53 PM   #35
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Columbia University should be ashamed of itself. I'm tired of the "shades of gray" in this world. Why would anyone give this idiot a plaform to speak? And please don't give me the freedom of speech argument. This guy isn't an american, he is the president of a country who doesn't have freedoms of press and religion. Try being openly gay in Tehran. See where that gets ya! I'm shocked more liberals aren't fired up about this guys agenda when he gets here. Why? oh, thats right, we have to be TOLERANT. Well, I'm not tolerant of this idiot. This man is dangerous, his country is involved directly in the killing of US service members, and he wants to come to ground zero? I hope he is taken care of in a New York minute....


allowing someone to speak doesn't mean that you endorse everything he stands for. you bring up a great example about the execution of gays in Iran -- and the FAILURE of the US to condem the state persecution of homosexuals.

he is the head of state of a country that we have to deal with. he is *democratically* elected. we have to deal with him. F. Scott Fitzgerald once said something to the effect of "the mark of an ingelligent person is being able to hold two contradictory thoughts in his head at once."

this is what adults do. we don't throw tantrums, we deal with who we have to deal with.
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Old 09-23-2007, 01:56 PM   #36
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The thing is here - yes he is an enabler of terrorism, but then so is America.

could you name for me the officially designated terrorist groups -- like the Iranian-funded Hezbollah -- that the US supports?

and the whole "the US army terrorizes" doesn't fly in this particular situation. we do have rules as to who is and who isn't a terrorist -- Hezbollah, Hamas.
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Old 09-23-2007, 02:01 PM   #37
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[q]Originally posted by financeguy


Mudfeld's statement:- "As usual, NYC politicians don't like Muslims if they stand up for themselves. Giuliani kicked Arafat at a concert in NYC, while he has no problem with mass murdering Israeli heads of state. So typical of New York" was a bit of an overgeneralisation, IMO. But I wouldn't hugely disagree with its general thrust.

I would venture that the three most well known New York politicians at the moment are Hilary Clinton, Rudi Giuliani and Michael Bloomberg - each one of them pretty strongly pro-Zionist. One is current Mayor, another a former Mayor and one is an elected Senator and married to a former President. Not uninfluentual people, it's fair to say. And all three are potential Presidential candidates.[/q]


we can agree on a lazy overgeneralization, but disagree on the use of the phrase "pro-Zionist." the overal bent of the generalization, as i took it, was the whole "Jew York" slur i've heard many times and the oft-repeated canard that the Jews control everything in the US. i might have read too much into that.



[q]Whose perception, precisely, are we talking about here? On the basis of what Mudfeld has said in this thread, I don't have any such perception - do you? If you do, can you explain why?[/q]

http://forum.interference.com/t179916.html



[q]It seems to me that that's a fairly strong statement of expression of disgust for the war crimes committed by the Nazis, and it's a long way from your implication that Mudfeld only stated that the Holocaust was "A Bad Thing" to "cover his ass".[/q]

it struck me as an expression of exasperation with perceived notions that the Jews feel themselves to be entitled to certain things because they have suffered more, and as such are exceptional and deserve exceptional treatment. and it's akin to someone saying, "yes, slavery was a bad thing, but that doesn't excuse those black kids who just stole my car."



Quote:
Can you give some examples? And is anyone seriously claiming that group suffering is known only to Palestinians?
i am saying that the amount of political time and attention to the Palestinians is out of proportion to the level of suffering in the territories.

would that the residents of Darfur have Tony Blair arrive to mediate between them and the muslim government in the north. "Never Again" indeed.
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Old 09-23-2007, 05:10 PM   #38
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It pisses me off to no end that this administration NEVER publisized the fact that Al-Qaeda had more ties to Iran than Iraq. This is in multiple books written after 9/11. Why? Why? Why?
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Old 09-23-2007, 06:00 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
[B][q]Originally posted by financeguy
I would venture that the three most well known New York politicians at the moment are Hilary Clinton, Rudi Giuliani and Michael Bloomberg - each one of them pretty strongly pro-Zionist. One is current Mayor, another a former Mayor and one is an elected Senator and married to a former President. Not uninfluentual people, it's fair to say. And all three are potential Presidential candidates.[/q]

we can agree on a lazy overgeneralization, but disagree on the use of the phrase "pro-Zionist." the overal bent of the generalization, as i took it, was the whole "Jew York" slur i've heard many times and the oft-repeated canard that the Jews control everything in the US. i might have read too much into that.

I didn't say it was a lazy overgeneralization. I said it was a bit of an overgeneralization, but that I didn't disagree with its broad thrust. In relation to the use of the phrase "pro-Zionist", which you appear to find problematic, please note I did not say simply say pro-Zionist. Zionist is usually taking as meaning support for the continuing existence of the State of Israel. By that standard, I am Zionist myself. But when I look at the policy positions and public speeches and statements of politicians such as Clinton, Bloomberg, and Giuilani, then I'd describe them not just as pro-Zionist, but strongly, even fervently so. Hilary is perhaps slightly more nuanced than the other two on the subject. At least, I hope so.



Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
[http://forum.interference.com/t179916.html

I hadn't seen that thread, as I haven't been paying much attention to news about the new album. Having skimmed it, I find that the post by Lazarus largely represents my own views, so I will take the liberty of quoting from it here:-


Quote:
Originally posted by lazarus
It's amazing how any time someone criticizes Israel's policies, they are immediately branded as some kind of intolerant Jew-hater. If you go back and read what Muldfield said, he never used the word "Israelis" or "Jews". He referred to Israel itself, which to me means its government. Why don't you just go ahead and call him a Nazi and Anti-Semite? It's the easiest way to discredit anything he may have said in the interest of a serious discussion.

As someone who was raised Jewish (including learning rudimentary Hebrew and being Bar Mitzvahed), I've seen this attitude many times, and it comes at no surprise that people are playing the victim so quickly. Look at Jimmy Carter, a hero of the Israel/Egypt Peace Agreements back in the 1970's and NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WINNER, who attempted to write an objective book about the conflict, titled "Palastine: Peace Not Apartheid". When he suggested that Israel may not be playing completely fair with the Palestinean territories, he was attacked by the usual suspects like the Anti-Defamation League, who view any suggestion of Israeli government wrong doing as an all-out assault on the Jewish people. While I understand that Anti-Semitism is alive and well, and that Jews should always be on guard for those who would try to add to the history of discrimination and intolerance, this inability to have an objective discussion does no one any good.

The United States and Israel have on numerous occasions ignored or reneged on United Nations resolutions, and haven't shown themselves to be fair partners in peace. While death and destruction can be attributed to both sides, it bothers me that a suicide bomber can be called a terrorist while a tank blowing up women and children is just considered a military action. History has made it very difficult to sympathize with a much larger and stronger power over a smaller one that is trying to attain some kind of freedom for itself. I don't think this case is necessarily any different.

Back to my main point, it's my understanding that most Jews worldwide, and most Israeli civilians aren't as hardlined about this situation as the Israeli government. So when one criticizes the political entity, how does that translate to a generalization of its citizens? When people protest George Bush all over the world, I don't take it personally.
And incidentally, I'd suggest that your implication about Mudfeld's views is unworthy of you. The posts by Mudfeld and the overall discussion on that thread was a lot more nuanced than what you're suggesting.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
[q]it struck me as an expression of exasperation with perceived notions that the Jews feel themselves to be entitled to certain things because they have suffered more, and as such are exceptional and deserve exceptional treatment.
Well, all I can say to this is that it's amazing how different people can read different things into the same statement.


Having said all that, I have no clue what Mudfeld is on about with all the 'BattleStar Galactica' stuff.
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Old 09-23-2007, 08:56 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abomb-baby
And please don't give me the freedom of speech argument. This guy isn't an american, he is the president of a country who doesn't have freedoms of press and religion.
which, of course, is exactly why they should allow him to speak. ah the irony.

mayor mike put it best

Quote:
Mayor Michael Bloomberg said Friday that the university was free to invite Ahmadinejad to speak, but "personally, I wouldn't go to listen to him—I don't care about what he says."
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