advice for fellow liberal Catholics

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Nice thread. I grew up a white, protestant evangelical, married a devout Catholic girl and now I consider myself a non-denominational Christian who finds value and hypocrisy in both. But one things for certain: I'm a 100% proud liberal. It's disgusting how the very word itself has been demonized by the neo-McArtheists on the right.

You were talking about shirts? I've had a shirt with the word "liberal" on it for two years. I made it as a protest against all the hate directed toward liberals.
 
LPU2 said:
Nice thread. I grew up a white, protestant evangelical, married a devout Catholic girl and now I consider myself a non-denominational Christian who finds value and hypocrisy in both. But one things for certain: I'm a 100% proud liberal. It's disgusting how the very word itself has been demonized by the neo-McArtheists on the right.

You were talking about shirts? I've had a shirt with the word "liberal" on it for two years. I made it as a protest against all the hate directed toward liberals.

Cool! I just might do the same thing. All of this hate is disturbing and frustrating. We might as well have a sense of humor about our own values, beliefs and dreams while we're in the serious business of not selling out.
 
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Hey, um, for the past year or so I've been considering becoming Catholic. I grew up in a conservative evangelical households so catholicism was always sorta out there. In the protestant church there is so little reverence to the artistic nature of God. I find deep meaning in symbolism, and I really value many catholic traditions. And, for the past three years I have gone to Christmas Mass at an Abbey (Abby...I'm no good at spelling) in the hills in southern california. All you liberal catholics out there, care to share any advice?
 
blueyedpoet said:
Hey, um, for the past year or so I've been considering becoming Catholic. I grew up in a conservative evangelical households so catholicism was always sorta out there. In the protestant church there is so little reverence to the artistic nature of God. I find deep meaning in symbolism, and I really value many catholic traditions. And, for the past three years I have gone to Christmas Mass at an Abbey (Abby...I'm no good at spelling) in the hills in southern california. All you liberal catholics out there, care to share any advice?

There is a process you go through to explore the possibility of becoming a Catholic. It's called RCIA, the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults. Get in touch with your local diocese, and they'll refer you to to classes at the church closest to you. It's been years since I did it, but I believe that there is an education ministry in each diocese. If that's not the right person to call, they'll refer you to the right person. You can just go to the classes and no one will put any pressure on you. You don't *have* to become Catholic just because you attend the classes. I love the artistic, visual side of Catholicism. I love the liturgical form of worship, the vestments, the processions, the art, the whole thing.
 
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The problem with Catholicism is that history has proven many of its doctorines wrong, all of them are nowhere to be found in the bible. The problem with liberalism in the church is that it's inconsistent with scripture. I'm not trying to degrade anyone's faith in God, but I would like to consider myself a Christian before I consider myself a conservative. Reason being, faith should always come before politics, science, and anything of this world.

Any reason why it shouldn't?
 
As a trained historian, I don't really know what you mean by "history" proving Catholic doctrine to be incorrect. In the Catholic faith, scripture is only part of Sacred Tradition, there's also the pronouncements and decrees of the Councils. These are accepted by Catholics. Eastern Orthodox Christians accept the validity of the first eight councils, which are sometimes called the "Christological" councils. The Protestants believe that faith is based strictly on scripture. The fact that some idiot was selling indulgences, which is theologically incorrect practice, doesn't demonize the doctrine of indulgences themselves, which is penance and prayer for the souls in Purgatory, not money as Tetzel wrongly claimed. The Catholic Church used to teach that liberalism and even democracy is contrary to faith, but that was changed at Vatican II. We have both conservatives and liberals in the Catholic Church and there is alot of controversy over liberalism in the Catholic Church. However, they don't excommunicate us.
 
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It may have been a long time ago, but Catholics did claim the earth wasn't round. I'm just not comfortable with extra-biblical claims, and to me, things like purgatory are a false doctorine that didn't come from God.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
It may have been a long time ago, but Catholics did claim the earth wasn't round. I'm just not comfortable with extra-biblical claims, and to me, things like purgatory are a false doctorine that didn't come from God.

Catholics have seven books in our Old Testament that are not found in Protestant Bibles. In one of these books, 2 Maccabees, prayer for the dead is discussed. Needless to say we do believe that this came from God. The notion that the earth isn't round wasn't introduced by the Catholic Church. It was introduced by the Aristotelian school of science, who taught their fair share of nonsense. It was part of medieval secular academic custom not to question traditional authorities. Thus if anyone contradicted Aristotle, they were blasted as wrong. Traditional authorities were *the* authorities for everything right up until the beginning of experimental science and modern philosophers like Descartes, who was a practicing Catholic himself.
 
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verte76 said:


Catholics have seven books in our Old Testament that are not found in Protestant Bibles. In one of these books, 2 Maccabees, prayer for the dead is discussed. Needless to say we do believe that this came from God.
I would be interested in reading it. I don't really understand why prayer of the dead is necessary if their eternity has already been determined.
 
verte76 said:
The belief is that the dead havn't completely finished their penance for their sins. It's in 2 Maccabees 12:43-46.
Thanks for your answer. In high school, I hung out with a Catholic youth group - even though I'm not Catholic obviously - but many of them had great faith in God. The problem was, when they got into Catholicism, they lost me. I just can't help but think that Catholicism is very complicated.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
Thanks for your answer. In high school, I hung out with a Catholic youth group - even though I'm not Catholic obviously - but many of them had great faith in God. The problem was, when they got into Catholicism, they lost me. I just can't help but think that Catholicism is very complicated.

If you haven't been through catechism it is complicated. That's why you have to go through catechism to convert, you just can't walk in and say "Hi, I'm Catholic now".
 
Macfistowannabe said:
The problem with Catholicism is that history has proven many of its doctorines wrong, all of them are nowhere to be found in the bible. The problem with liberalism in the church is that it's inconsistent with scripture.

Who teaches you this crap?! You're really beginning to piss me off with your blanket generalisations, offensive comments, and your arrogance. You have at one time or another said something offensive about everyone but white conservative Christians.

Catholics have made mistakes, yes just like protestants. Please take a look at a history in theology before you spout off such drivel.

And please tell me what about liberalism conflicts with scripture that conservativism doesn't.

I don't think Jesus would approve of a captial punishment system.

I don't think he'd approve of tax cuts to the rich.

I don't think he'd approve of pre-imptive wars.

I don't think he'd approve of catering to the pharmaceutical companies why the elderly can't afford help.

Would you like me to go on?

If Jesus came down today, don't kid yourself in thinking he'd be a conservative, because he wouldn't. He also wouldn't be a liberal. But he'd come here and shake up a lot churches and these people who are apparantly speaking for him. And believe me he'd shake up whatever church taught you these extremely close minded beliefs you have.
 
"I love the artistic, visual side of Catholicism. I love the liturgical form of worship, the vestments, the processions, the art, the whole thing." Verte, that's exactly what I love about Catholicism. Another thing I love is hey, Catholicism is the only branch that admits to it's um (pardon my french) fuck-ups. I've yet to see the Baptist communities apologize for endorsing slavery, Nazism (as did catholicism too at first), racism etc. I grew up in a Baptist home so I know first hand that there are many other mistakes. At least Catholics go, yeah, parts of our past are pretty bad.
 
blueyedpoet said:
"I love the artistic, visual side of Catholicism. I love the liturgical form of worship, the vestments, the processions, the art, the whole thing." Verte, that's exactly what I love about Catholicism. Another thing I love is hey, Catholicism is the only branch that admits to it's um (pardon my french) fuck-ups. I've yet to see the Baptist communities apologize for endorsing slavery, Nazism (as did catholicism too at first), racism etc. I grew up in a Baptist home so I know first hand that there are many other mistakes. At least Catholics go, yeah, parts of our past are pretty bad.

Absolutely. There are definitely things in our past that are embarrassing. We are having classes in church history at my church. We've learned about the saints and the sinners. There were popes and cardinals who lived scandalous lifestyles. There has been plenty of corruption, not to mention disgusting political activities, on the part of big shots in the Church. Even Queen Isabella of Spain, a staunch Catholic if there ever was one, condemned the immorality of Renaissance popes. But this is balanced by our saints, who include great popes, bishops, even a King (Louis IX of France), and great writers and teachers like St. Augustine, St. Albertus Magnus, St. Thomas Aquinas, reformers like St. Catherine of Siena and abbesses like St. Teresa of Avila, and many more. We're a thoroughly human church, but we figure God must love us if He's allowed our Church to last.
 
I was baptized Catholic and I went to Catholic school for many years. I had my first communion but I never went through Confirmation because I wasn't ready at the time to commit to one belief system for the rest of my life.

I still consider myself a Catholic, although I rarely to never attend church anymore. There are many aspects that I love about Catholicism, most of them have already been mentioned by previous posters in this very thread. That being said, I have many issues with Catholicism. It has not as much to do with the mistakes made in past history but more to do with the things they continue to perpetuate in the modern age.

One huge problem for me is the condemnation of homosexuals by the Vatican. Another big thing is the birth control issue. I don't see how they can still keep the offiical stance that birth control is wrong when we have so much overpopulation in the world. It's all so outdated and I think they need to modernize or they will continue to alienate people and lose valuable members of their congregation.

One of my good friends who is also a Catholic believes that there is a difference between official Catholic doctrine and the culture of Catholicism which has more to do with ideas about social justice and the concept that good works are more important even than faith. He says that it is possible to still call yourself a Catholic without agreeing with every one of their stances. I want to believe this and at times I do but other times I wonder if I can still be considered a Catholic if my personal viewpoints differ so much from the official stances that the Vatican takes.

I've tried to explore other belief systems in the past but I always end up coming back around full circle. I have come to the conclusion that I can't run away from it because it is a part of who I am. It's inside of me whether I like it or not.

I hope I haven't sidetracked this thread too much. I was just interested in hearing some of the other FYM Catholics perspective on this.
 
I also have issues with the Vatican, particularly on birth control. This teaching is a holdover from the Aristotelian aspect of Scholastic philosophy, which had its greatest expression in the works of St. Thomas Aquinas. I feel like this argument has lost its relevance over time. We no longer have the astronomical infant mortality they had in medieval Europe, and there is overpopulation all over. I also take issue with the Vatican on homosexuality. This is based on the idea that marriage is for procreation. There is another school of thought on marriage, dating from the late medieval period. The first female professional writer in Europe, Christine de Pizan, believed that marriage was mainly for companionship. This was a pretty radical idea when it first came out, and even Christine would have been shocked to see it used by the Protestants later on to make the idea of divorce respectable. However, if you follow this idea logically, it not only makes divorce respectable, it also makes gay relationships "respectable" because they are companionships. American Catholics drive the Vatican crazy with our independence, and there is alot of controversy over all of this stuff. The conservative Protestants don't agree with the companionship concept of marriage, either. It's something reasonable people can disagree on.
 
I was raised Catholic and on the occasion where I attend church, I go to a Catholic one. I've also been educated in Catholic schools, so I have some understanding of the dogma. Some years ago, I really sat down and considered various sects of Christianity, including Catholicism, mainly because I wanted to know WHY I was Catholic. The main reason I have remained a somewhat-practicing Catholic is because I do not agree with the notion that Scripture is final authority and I also do not believe man is saved by faith alone. Catholicism also allows for the belief that non-Christians can find salvation, which is something I strongly believe in. When it comes to Mariology and the Saints, I don't understand at all the charges that Catholicism is polytheistic. You are not praying to a Saint, you are simply asking them to interject on your behalf and pray to God for you. It is a bit like if I were sick and I asked a friend to pray for me - I am not worshipping her, but rather asking her to pray for my wellness.

There are a number of issues I have with Catholicism, ranging from the fact I believe the Vatican is relatively corrupt, that it's still an old boy's club, and that a number of their policies in today's world are socially irresponsible.
 
I would ask what that means but I don't want to derail the thread, as this doesn't have anything to do with advice to liberal Catholics.
 
nbcrusader said:
I attended a Catholic high school. Never once did they ask if I believed in Jesus. They even let me skip weekly chapel if I wanted.

The Catholic schools I'm aware of here in Birmingham don't require non-Catholic students to attend any religious functions or to take religion classes. If you are Catholic, this stuff is required. Also, it is a rule that to stay open, a Catholic school has to have a majority of Catholic students. We've closed a whole slew of parochial schools in Birmingham because Catholic students became a minority. Needless to say this irks parents, but they've got to follow the rules.
Back to liberal Catholic controversies..........:wink:
 
So I guess my question for my fellow FYM liberal Catholics is, can we still consider ourselves Catholics when we disagree with so many of the major stances of the official Catholic church? Or does that make us something else, and if so what would that be?
 
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I think we are what they refer to as "cafeteria Catholics" - ie. you pick and choose what doctrine you agree with.

There are probably two issues at hand - if you have a problem with Catholic dogma, then it is possible you may no longer consider yourself a Catholic.

It seems to me that most of the problems people voiced on this thread concern Church leadership and hierarchy rather than the structure of the faith itself. My view is that Catholicism underwent a major rebirth at the point of the 2nd Vatican Council, but has stagnated since, and as effective and important as the current Pope was in fighting Communism and reintroducing Catholicism back into Eastern Europe after the Berlin Wall fell, he is also responsible for an extremely rigid, male-oriented, unwavering, uncompromising view. But John Paul II will not be here forever, and my hope is that the new Church leadership will promote more social programs in areas of the world where Catholics are the most numerous and the poorest (ie. South/Latin America, African nations). Catholicism has always strongly promoted social justice mainly based on the belief that you are not saved by grace or faith alone, but you need good works for salvation, and I think that the current Vatican leadership is playing their own brand of politics which has at times deviated from the promotion of social justice in the name of furthering political influence and agenda around the world.

I do believe that Catholics, on the whole, are moving to a place that is far more progressive than most other Christian denominations (particularly evangelicals), and so it will be interesting to see whether new leadership will reflect that.

I guess my main point is that as a Catholic, you would have to evaluate what it is exactly that you disagree with. My main issue is with the current Pope and the current Church leadership, but these are just men, ordinary people, no more or less fallible than you and I, and so I don't really see my personal faith as something that hinders on a personal view they take.
 
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