BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Justin24 said:Dude I have posted the curiculem of that class already which you have read.
That's not what I'm talking about. You cited some bias of allowing Muslims to pray or something.
Justin24 said:Dude I have posted the curiculem of that class already which you have read.
80sU2isBest said:
They were forced to participate in an Islamic religious practice.
80sU2isBest said:
Even if it were just "education"; it is not the job of public schools to educate people about religions, except for maybe the vey basic of their beliefs.
80sU2isBest said:
But it's not just education. If they were simple "educating", they would say "This is what Muslims believe", end of story. This project is endorsement. By forcing the students to participate in the religious practices, and by telling the students "You will be Muslims for the next 3 weeks", they are endorsing the religion of Islam as a "good" thing. Would they force the students to participate if they didn't think Islam is a "good" thing? Of course not.
yolland said:
Simulating Communion is probably not the best analogy though, as Islam does not per se have "sacraments" in this manner.
Justin24 said:So then you would have no objection if Christians did that? I bet the ACLU would.
BonoVoxSupastar said:
It's in a classroom, it's not a real relgious practice.
BonoVoxSupastar said:And what do you think they were doing? Do you honestly think they when in depth with just a few days?
BonoVoxSupastar said:And I do think that in days like this, just look at the lies spread about the Muslim religion in here, that the public schools are doing the children a service.
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Oh, please. You've never role played during your education? We dressed as Pilgrims and Native Americans when we learned about Thanksgiving, do you honestly think that was an endorsement of the brutality to which was placed on the Native Americans?
Which lies would they be exactly?look at the lies spread about the Muslim religion in here, that the public schools are doing the children a service.
I invite atheists, agnostics, and dietists of any kind to challenge the merits of Christianity. So given that principle, why the double standard on Islam? Is it a hate crime to shun the blind assumption that it is truly a religion of peace?BonoVoxSupastar said:After reading some of your posts about Muslims, I can think of quite a few posters who could have benefitted from a high school that taught like this.
It could also be considered a golden calf to those who consider their own faith sacred, whether or not it's theological or atheistic.BonoVoxSupastar said:
It's in a classroom, it's not a real relgious practice.
It seems so, we should treat religions equally with no fear or favour.Macfistowannabe said:I invite atheists, agnostics, and dietists of any kind to challenge the merits of Christianity. So given that principle, why the double standard on Islam? Is it a hate crime to shun the blind assumption that it is truly a religion of peace?
Yes, or, we can judge a religion by its fruit.A_Wanderer said:It seems so, we should treat religions equally with no fear or favour.
maycocksean said:I see a lot of what seems to be purposely ignoring good arguments on the "opposing side" going on here.
I think it's been made pretty clear from the curriculum itself that they are not making kids participate in religious practices such as prayers, religious ceremonies etc, yet many posters continue to ignore this. There's a lot of straw men being set up here, in my opinion.
My point is, it's just a simulation nothing more, nothing less.80sU2isBest said:
Why does it matter where it takes place? A communion can be held anywhere; doesn't make it not a communion.
They aren't taking communion.80sU2isBest said:
You still didn't answer my question, BVS. Do you think it would be right to force a Muslim child to take communion, knowing full well that is a religious tradition that honors what Muslims consider a lie?
15 hours is nothing, how long have you been studying the Bible?80sU2isBest said:
It wasn't "just a few days". It was 3 weeks, which is plenty of time to go in depth. That's 15 hours.
80sU2isBest said:
What lies? Even if someone were spreading lies about Islam, why is a public school, paid for by public tax dollars, the place to lay down what some teacher considers to be the truth about Islam?
80sU2isBest said:
When these kids are forced to participate in religious practices, those religious practices are being endorsed (approved of) by the teacher, because like I said, she's not going to have them participate in something she does not approve of.
BonoVoxSupastar said:
My point is, it's just a simulation nothing more, nothing less.
BonoVoxSupastar said:15 hours is nothing, how long have you been studying the Bible? ]
BonoVoxSupastar said:What lies? Just close your eyes and click on thread, bet you'll find at least one. It's not one one teacher considers to be the truth, I'm guessing you haven't actually read the curriculum yet.
BonoVoxSupastar said:THEY AREN'T PARTICIPATING IN RELIGIOUS PRACTICES. I'm not sure how many times you need to be told that.
80sU2isBest said:
Why should a student be forced to even "simulate' religious practices?
80sU2isBest said:
then every other religion on the face of the earth should be studied in public schools.
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Why should students be forced to do anything?
BonoVoxSupastar said:
And we don't know what these schools do, we just have one piece of curriculum.
80sU2isBest said:
Can the same be said about studying Islam?
80sU2isBest said:
Actually, we can be pretty sure they don't have a curriculum in "Understanding Christianity". How can we be reasonably sure about that? Because it would be plastered all over the national news, and there would most definitely have been a topic about it here at FYM.
That aside, I'm not even sure why I am arguing with you about this. My argument is based on the idea of "public schools not teaching religion". You don't support that idea, so I can understand why you wouldn't have a problem with this curriculum.
80sU2isBest[/i] [B] It is difficult for people to come even close to prospering in this life without a decent education in math said:Yes.
BonoVoxSupastar said:don't like functioning on assumptions.
BonoVoxSupastar said:Religion is part of history and is integral to society and cultures, and should be taught in the same context.
80sU2isBest said:
Are you pulling my leg at this point? Do you really think that it is very very difficult for people to come even close to prospering in this life without studying Islam?
In what way does not studying Islam hinder someone's chances at prosperity?
80sU2isBest said:
It's not possible to study every religion, is it? Then how do you pick and choose? How can we force the students to take a 15 hours course on Islam but say "Sorry, no can do on Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Christian Science, Scientology, Buddhism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Bahai, etc. etc? "
BonoVoxSupastar said:
This planet would prosper if we were all a little more educated about each other's faiths and beliefs.
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Part of our schooling is based on percentages, we don't teach underwater basket weaving because honestly how often would you ever really have to do so? Percentage wise what are your largest religions?
80sU2isBest said:
and that is not what you answered yes to.
80sU2isBest said:
Percentage wise I would say Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, and Judaism, but I'm not sure.
So, are you advocating teaching a 15 hour course on each of those, and forcing the students to make a banner in praise of each religion's God?
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Yes, it is.
BonoVoxSupastar said:Honestly I think 15 hours is probably a little long, but yes an educational course on these would probably benefit us all.
80sU2isBest said:
What I said was this:
"It is very very difficult for people to come even close to prospering in this life without a decent education in math, grammar, and history.
Can the same be said about studying Islam?"
And that is what you answered "yes" to.
80sU2isBest said:
And parents' wishes are thrown out the window?
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Any parent who wishes their child to go through life not knowing what their friends, neighbors, or people in other countries believe in aren't much of parents.
80sU2isBest said:
Why do you assume that a parent who doesn't want his kid to participate in simulations of Islamic religious practices is a parent wishes his child would go through life not knowing what their friends, neighbors, or people in other countries believe? Do you know the motivations of parents?
I agree that (3) was an eyebrow-raiser, as it goes beyond what a role-playing project would normally require. I think you are misrepresenting (1); the concept there is to make a "city banner" (in keeping with the "tribal caravan" theme), and the Bismillah (which is not a confession of faith--that would be the Shahadah, "there is no God but Allah..."), as well as the city name and "Arabesque designs" called for, are indeed historically likely components of such a banner. Concerning (2), and as I mentioned previously, those proverbs are Arab (and are identified as such), not "Islamic"; they are not religious in nature; one does mention "God" in an epithetical context, though in any case, that need not be among the five memorized.80sU2isBest said:The students must not only learn the "Five Pillars Of Faith", but imitate a requirement of each pillar. This requires the following: (1) Making a banner with an Islamic confession of faith on it (2) Memorize five Islamic proverbs (3) Give up one hour of lunch.
Again, this is just an epithet--"God willing"--and anyhow its use is not required. By this logic any utterance of the English word "God" in any curricular context should also be forbidden, which would make teaching many phases of history difficult. When we role-played a Puritan witch trial in my elementary school, we used the word "God" copiously; it would be hard to role-play a Puritan without doing so.They also encourage students to use the phrase "in sha Allah". Allah is a name that opnly Muslims use for God.
I agree that it is appropriate in such a context, and I personally would have no intrinsic objection to a unit on Christianity that used a historical scenario analogous to this one. Admittedly it's difficult to envision precisely what an analogous scenario might look like for comparison's sake because, living inside the "Christian world" as we do, the historic and cultural stereotypes called to mind when contemplating "What does an archetypal Christian act like" are far more diverse, and these stereotypes' obfuscation by casual awareness of Christians as, e.g., one's less-than-archetypal next door neighbor, are far more extensive. As mentioned above, when I was in grade school (no longer remember which grade) we did a project that involved role-playing a Salem witch trial, in which I played a Puritan magistrate who quoted the Bible, made accusations that the "defendants" had made covenants with the Devil, etc. In my junior high school there was a role-playing project involving the recreation of life in a series of medieval European social environments, one of which was a monastery. (I got stuck with playing a scripturally illiterate peasant, so I'm afraid I don't recall the specifics of what playing a monk entailed.) And although I did not attend a public high school, I know many of them do have students read portions of the Bible, most typically the Genesis creation narrative, as literature in English classes.maycocksean said:If this were a lesson on Christianity, I really do believe there would be a lot more hostile reaction to it by many on this board...I suspect many would feel that teaching a Christianity unit would be an attempt at sneaking in "conversion" into the classroom.
I feel that teaching about religion in public school is absolutely appropriate in a historical and cultural context (and I am a HUGE proponent of church and state seperation). There is a difference between teaching religion and teaching about religion. It should be done thoughtfully and carefully but it can be done.
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Not an assumption, deductive reasoning.
BonoVoxSupastar said:Why don't you tell me the motivations of someone who would deny this. They going to teach the child themselves? That's a laugh.