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Old 11-29-2001, 12:09 PM   #21
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Originally posted by Not George Lucas:
I'm of the belief that abortion is no different than murder and should be treated as such.
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Old 11-29-2001, 12:16 PM   #22
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Originally posted by LarryMullen's_POPAngel:
I personally don't think I would be able to go through one if I were to have an unexpected pregnancy, but who am I to tell other women what to do with their bodies? It's every induvidual woman's choice, and I respect that.
So, if I had a siamese twin, and I got tired of having to be connected to him, it's my right to kill him, right? Why not - it's my body.

The idea that laws should protect the person's "right to do with their own body as they please" is preposterous.

In the USA, it is illegal to take certain drugs. In most states, prostitution is illegal.

Sorry, this is one of my main issues. I just can't stay out of it.
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Old 11-29-2001, 04:27 PM   #23
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I just thank God each day of my life that I/we live in a society that not only allows, but gives us the RIGHT to express our opinions FREELY!

I am a Christian and happen to be Pro-Choice. Even though I am greatly opposed to abortion, it doesn't give me the right to make ANY decision for anyone else.

I don't think being Pro-Choice automatically makes you Pro-Abortion. I really don't think that ANYBODY is Pro-Abortion. This is about empowering people to exercise their right to RESPONSIBLY choose what's best for themselves.




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Old 11-29-2001, 05:26 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by A|catura:
I am a Christian and happen to be Pro-Choice. Even though I am greatly opposed to abortion, it doesn't give me the right to make ANY decision for anyone else.
May I ask why you are personally "greatly opposed" to it? On what grounds?


[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 11-29-2001).]
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Old 11-29-2001, 06:17 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by A|catura:
I am a Christian and happen to be Pro-Choice. Even though I am greatly opposed to abortion, it doesn't give me the right to make ANY decision for anyone else.

I don't think being Pro-Choice automatically makes you Pro-Abortion. I really don't think that ANYBODY is Pro-Abortion. This is about empowering people to exercise their right to RESPONSIBLY choose what's best for themselves.

I fully agree with you.

I don't think we can impart our own moral superiority onto other people. There are people who don't find abortion abominable. There are people who have absolutely no religious affiliation, and don't believe a child is being "murdered."

Each person is responsible for the choices he or she makes. The rest of us, while we can offer guidance, cannot dictate to them what should/must be done.
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Old 11-29-2001, 07:21 PM   #26
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Originally posted by She ls Raging:
Hmmmm.... this is such a touchy subject.

I myself am adamantly pro-life when it comes to abortion. Mainly because I'm a nurse in a newborn ICU and I take care of babies that are born as much as 17 weeks early and survive. They're such little fighters - you'd be amazed. I dont believe in the whole "it's not a baby yet" argument because it is, and I've seen them alive and breathing at this "fetal" stage. Tiny little things that grow up into big people I'm going to stop here before I go off an a MAJOR tangent!


Oh Raging...I have always admired the people that work in NICU..I sometimes work with the ones that survive the NICU, usually becoming global developmentally delayed children.

Huge thumbs up to the men and women in these wards.
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Old 11-29-2001, 09:07 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Quote:
Originally posted by LarryMullen's_POPAngel:
I personally don't think I would be able to go through one if I were to have an unexpected pregnancy, but who am I to tell other women what to do with their bodies? It's every induvidual woman's choice, and I respect that.
So, if I had a siamese twin, and I got tired of having to be connected to him, it's my right to kill him, right? Why not - it's my body.

The idea that laws should protect the person's "right to do with their own body as they please" is preposterous.

In the USA, it is illegal to take certain drugs. In most states, prostitution is illegal.

Sorry, this is one of my main issues. I just can't stay out of it.
You're welcome to your opinion, 80's, but I am also, and that's what I believe. The way you make it seem is ridiculous...case in point, the siamese twin example. I'm not justifying "murder", I'm merely saying that as human beings we should have the right to do what we will with our own bodies. By that I mean tattooing, piercing, and yes, even aborting a baby (for whatever reason, I'm not saying every abortion has a good reason behind it...as a matter of fact, I believe that every woman who has ever had one never comes to the decision very easily, and has to live with that for the rest of her life.)

Just stating my opinion, once again.

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Old 11-29-2001, 11:09 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by LarryMullen's_POPAngel:
I believe. The way you make it seem is ridiculous...case in point, the siamese twin example. I'm not justifying "murder", I'm merely saying that as human beings we should have the right to do what we will with our own bodies. I'm not saying every abortion has a good reason behind it...as a matter of fact, I believe that every woman who has ever had one never comes to the decision very easily, and has to live with that for the rest of her life.) Just stating my opinion, once again.
Well, maybe I didn't get my point across clearly, because if I did, you might not think it was ridiculous. I'll explain it in more detail.

The argument for legalization of abortion is that a woman has rights over her own body.Surely, people would agree that a woman's rights end where it negative affects another life. Well, let's look at a side by said comparison of Siamese twins and a pregnant woman.

Siamese twins are basically two people sharing one body. A preganant woman is much the same. A large portion of the medical community believe that life begins at conception; therefore, the baby and the mother are two lives sharing the same body.

And that's where my argument about killing your siamese twin comes into play. If you are tired of your twin, don't you have the right to kill him/her - after all it is your body. For people who believe that a life in the womb is just as much a life as someone outside the womb, the same standard applies. The phrase "it is my body" does not apply, because of the before-mentioned rule; that your right to do whatever you want with your body ends when it intrudes on my rights. And if a child still in the womb is indeed a viable life, the mother's rights end when those rights intrude on the right of the pre-born baby to survive.

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Old 11-30-2001, 01:27 AM   #29
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80's, you have to admnit its a clinical example. Accurate only in the 2 bodies comparison, the similarities are slim.

Realistically you are never likely to understand pregnancy, and don't get me wrong, Im not using the "you're a man, what would you know?" argument, after all your points are valid and your opinion is your right.
What I am saying however is you do not and never could know the process for want of a better term, a woman goes through when making that choice. You say what you do based on your intelligence and religion. The fear of pregnancy alone, the thought of childbirth, the external factors that influence a decision like this, you can only see from the outside.
Imagine a being a woman, pregnant, alone with no support, faced with the prospect of raising a child alone, with no money, no material foundations to raise a child. No father for the baby, an inability to see yourself as strong enough to do such a job, being filled with so much soul destroying self doubt that you cannot see clearly. Can you imagine the fear? Can you begin to understand it? Many men face this I know. But they do not nurture this baby for 9 months, they do not make the choice to terminate a life. Of course it's wrong, and anyone here would agree with you. Until experiencing this, most say they can or never will do it, but the reality of it is something completely different. By aborting a life doesn't make it any more right or wrong, nothing makes the choice any easier. If I was that woman 80's, would you look me right in the eye and judge? Would you feel with all your knowledge, really equipped to make an informed decision, one that is beyond the opinion you showed, and one I appreciate and respect?
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Old 11-30-2001, 10:28 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem:
Realistically you are never likely to understand pregnancy, and don't get me wrong, Im not using the "you're a man, what would you know?" argument, after all your points are valid and your opinion is your right.
What I am saying however is you do not and never could know the process for want of a better term, a woman goes through when making that choice. You say what you do based on your intelligence and religion. The fear of pregnancy alone, the thought of childbirth, the external factors that influence a decision like this, you can only see from the outside.
Imagine a being a woman, pregnant, alone with no support, faced with the prospect of raising a child alone, with no money, no material foundations to raise a child. No father for the baby, an inability to see yourself as strong enough to do such a job, being filled with so much soul destroying self doubt that you cannot see clearly. Can you imagine the fear? Can you begin to understand it? Many men face this I know. But they do not nurture this baby for 9 months, they do not make the choice to terminate a life. Of course it's wrong, and anyone here would agree with you. Until experiencing this, most say they can or never will do it, but the reality of it is something completely different. By aborting a life doesn't make it any more right or wrong, nothing makes the choice any easier. If I was that woman 80's, would you look me right in the eye and judge? Would you feel with all your knowledge, really equipped to make an informed decision, one that is beyond the opinion you showed, and one I appreciate and respect?
Excuse me, Angela, but where did I judge women who had made that decision? I didn't. I said abortion is wrong, which it is. Or, is it wrong in this world to believe that something is wrong? If you were in that situation and asked if you should have an abortion, my answer would not change...I would say no. I would give you my support, I would help you out and care for you, but I would not support your decision to have an abortion, if that's what you chose. And I don't really care if you respect that or not, quite frankly.
And by the way, you say i couldn't understand it. Of course a man doesn't know the experience the way the woman does, but the man in the situation isn't exactly having the time of his life, either. I can understand it as well as any man. You see, I've been there. 11 years ago, I dated a girl who got pregnant. I had no job. She was a waitress. Times were tough. I cried, I prayed, I felt for her and the baby. She gave birth and 8 hours later, the boy died. So I had a son for 8 hours. So don't tell me I don't understand.



[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 11-30-2001).]
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Old 11-30-2001, 12:12 PM   #31
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Now that you're at it, what do you guys think about euthanasia? I'm personally all for it. What's the use in living when the quality of life is not there?
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Old 11-30-2001, 05:37 PM   #32
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I would never get an abortion.
I guess no one got it.
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Old 12-01-2001, 07:24 AM   #33
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No 80's, I never did say you judged people. I asked you if you would. And you said you wouldn't and believe it to be wrong. Who's to say if that's judgement?

A side note though, I am very sorry to hear about your experience. It's a terribly sad story.

I wish I could tell you how bad it is to feel that an abortion is best option you have, but I cant. Like I said, its never right, but honestly, times are definately tough when abortion is the only action you feel you can do.
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Old 12-01-2001, 07:28 AM   #34
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I guess no one got it.
I got it.



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Old 12-02-2001, 10:27 AM   #35
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i have two children and at the minute if i fell pregnant again it would be a nightmare but i could never have a abortion.
i have mixed views on this,i used to be totally against abortion untill i knew someone who had one .once i listened to her reasons i knew it was the best decicison for her.
i have also known people to have unprotected sex fell pregnant and had a abortion like its no big deal that i DONT agree with
The reason i couldnt do it ,in my opinion as soon as you conceive the foetus has feelings it is a living being!!!!!


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Old 12-05-2001, 08:11 PM   #36
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This is a strange occurrence; I actually agree with 80sU2isBest. I have always been of the notion that abortion presents too many ambiguous moral shadings into the fold, that is why I am very willing to point out that it is NOT right.

Having said that, I don't really think it IS wrong. What is worse? Bringing a life into this world so that it will suffer at the hands of unprepared parents that didn't even want it in the first place, or simply not exist at all? It is a difficult and terrible question, deciding on existence, that is why I oppose it. However, exceptions such as rape and other unfortunate occurrences will always occur.

If I were a country's leader, while not making Abortion illegal, I would legislate it as such that everytime a couple (or woman) has an abortion, they would have to pay a considerable fine. Why? Because we simply have too many people (men AND women) who just like to copulate without thinking about protection or sometimes not even using it properly. My criticism of soceity is that many people don't THINK of the consequences of their own actions, having sex being one of them. Whether its AIDS, unwanted children or other externalities, some people are only too happy to dance the horizontal mumbo without bearing other considerations, that is why fining people would make them think.

I think people should be made to think before they act, hitting them where it hurts. ie - the wallet, would be advisable.

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Old 12-05-2001, 09:42 PM   #37
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Haven't been in forum for a while, but I have to jump in on this with my 2 cents.

Abortion is wrong-it has to be. Taking a human life without their consent is always, always incorrect. If you are not prepared to have a child, you should not be having sex, plain and simple. Need I remind anyone that the primary purpose of intercourse is procreation? Should you want to have pleasurable fun with your signifiant other, there are a million different (other) ways. Sorry if you don't have the discipline, that's the chance you take.

If you find yourself in an unplanned pregnancy, check out exactly how long the waiting list is of couples who cannot conceive who are waiting to adopt, and count yourself blessed that you can bear life, and pass the blessing on to someone else in the form of a child. Lets also not forget that children are a blessing, not a burden on your lifestyle.

One point about rape (which is the only touchy thing I see about this): Would you punish the child for the sin of the father? What if a woman is repeatedly abused by her husband and leaves him, only to find that everytime she sees her children she is reminded of him, so she kills them. Would that hold up in the court that allows abortion today?

What's the difference beween a woman aborting her three month old fetus because she doesn't think she can raise a child, and a woman aborting her three month old child, because she can't? (At least she gave it the 'old college try'--but she would be counted a murderess)

What if in some Orwell-esque future, all a woman has to do is sign a document stating that she considered abortion (but passed on it), that gives her the right at anytime to rescind her decision? (no-one would live past the age of 13, that's for sure)

Humans are stronger than we think, we can handle more than we know (just ask any Holocaust survivor). We live in a society we have wrought on ourselves, but that doesn't make our self destruction right, or truth relative.
Okay...I'll shut up now...end of rant...have a nice day...

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Old 12-07-2001, 09:01 AM   #38
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Angell, I thought yours was a good post, but I really don't think it's possible to seriously discuss a situation like abortion after rape if you talk about "punishing" the child for the father's crime. That just doesn't seem like a very serious argument.

Other than that, you made some good points.
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Old 12-07-2001, 09:12 PM   #39
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My point was that the child's life would be taken because the father committed a crime against the mother. A child is murdered, and the mother is not helped in any way by that....if anything she is hindered in the long run by two traumatic events, instead of one.

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Old 12-08-2001, 06:48 AM   #40
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I really think that abortions are something that I'd never do. Just think that you were the responsable for this (well you and your partner), what does the baby has to do with all that? That little thing inside of your body was something that you created, and its not his fault that now he's a 'concret' being. So, I wonder; why killing this innocent being? I guess I am just too affective about kids in general... I just love them and I couldn't think of any reason at all for abort them while they were just little pieces of you and your partner growing inside of your uteress


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