Abortion

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maycocksean said:


I don't know. But I have a feeling that whatever he said would shake us all up--on both sides of the debate. Reading the gospels, that seems pretty typical.

I find it ironic that so many are so certain we know "what Jesus would do" when the fact is that when He was here on earth what He mostly did was confound people's expectatons.

:up:
 
Justin24 said:
Yes I get on his nerves because of my views, and I am sorry.

I'm taking a deep breath here...



Once again NO, it's not your views that get on my nerves(I can talk for hours about this with some people who have the same views as you and not get upset), it's your lack of listening and your approach to the discussion.

This is a perfect example right here. I've told you I don't know how many times that it's not your views. I've told you in here and I've told you in PM. Yet you still don't listen.
 
maycocksean said:


But that's just it! Most, if not all people who are pro-choice are "not intentionally killing an innocent human being." At most you could argue that they are "unintentionally" killing a human being because they don't recognize the fetus as human.

I'll grant you, that sometimes I get the sense that people don't WANT to recognize the fetus as a human--which I totally understand, because the ramifications of such a recognition are pretty serious--and I think that is unfortunate.

Sadly, I think that is more frequent than sometimes.

maycocksean said:
I don't believe that acknowledging that a fetus is a human necessitates banning abortion. I think the pro-choice camp would actually have a much stronger argument if they acknowledged that yes, it MAY be taking a human life, and that's an awful thing to do, but sometimes it must be done.

I disagree. I think that the moment prochoice organizations collectively say that abortion is the taking of a human life, the criminalization of abortion is right around the corner, and that's why they can't do it.

maycocksean said:
I mean sometimes I get the sense that it's a baby when we want it ("oh, look at the sonogram of my baby!" Nobody says "check out this growth in my uterus. I can't wait until it becomes human!") and a "growth" when we don't want it. Which is shaky logic.

You're right about that.
 
Interesting point trev, I've always wondered that myself. So if abortions are illegal, then are we going to criminalize the women? The doctors? What about the men who impregnated the women? Are they going to be punished too or do they get off scott free simply for being men?
 
Would there be some way that a man could prosecute a woman who had his child aborted against his will? Or would men have any rights? It's all so hypothetical.
 
maycocksean said:


I don't know. But I have a feeling that whatever he said would shake us all up--on both sides of the debate. Reading the gospels, that seems pretty typical.

I find it ironic that so many are so certain we know "what Jesus would do" when the fact is that when He was here on earth what He mostly did was confound people's expectatons.

I think we can pretty much know what Jesus thinks, even though he of course never mentioned the word "abortion".

He constantly speak of and exhibited his love for children.

More importantly, Christ said "I and the Father are one and the same".

Why is that important to this discussion? Because the scripture makes it very plain how God feels about life in the womb:

Jeremiah 1:5:
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

I think it is 100% clear how God views the baby in the womb. And in this passage, he mandates a punishment for killing a baby in the womb:

Exodus 21:22-23:
"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
 
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BonoVoxSupastar said:


I'm taking a deep breath here...



Once again NO, it's not your views that get on my nerves(I can talk for hours about this with some people who have the same views as you and not get upset), it's your lack of listening and your approach to the discussion.

This is a perfect example right here. I've told you I don't know how many times that it's not your views. I've told you in here and I've told you in PM. Yet you still don't listen.

I remember a specific incident when for for at least 3 or 4 pages you consistently denied saying a certain thing even though I reposted those words for you over and over again. It was very very very frustrating, and I had to take a few deep breaths myself then.

I'm just saying we can all act the way you claim Justin is acting, and that we should keep that in mind when deciding how to respond to the person.
 
I think the point Sean is making is that Christ would probably deal more with the issue surrounding abortion rather than just attack abortion the way pro-lifers do. I think he'd say more about why are we having abortions. Where will these unwanted children go? Where will these scared teenagers who've been disowned by all go?
 
80sU2isBest said:


I remember a specific incident when for for at least 3 or 4 pages you consistently denied saying a certain thing even though I reposted those words for you over and over again. It was very very very frustrating, and I had to take a few deep breaths myself then.

I'm just saying we can all act the way you claim Justin is acting, and that we should keep that in mind when deciding how to respond to the person.

You remember one incident, and if I remember that incident right you were wanting to pin me in the corner about something you misunderstood me saying. Yes you quoted me but you didn't take in consider the context.

Yes there are times where communicating in here can get frustrating, I'm not denying that. We're all guilty of certain things. But when it's constant and you've addressed the subject with that person and they willfully continue it's something entirely different.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
I think the point Sean is making is that Christ would probably deal more with the issue surrounding abortion rather than just attack abortion the way pro-lifers do. I think he'd say more about why are we having abortions. Where will these unwanted children go? Where will these scared teenagers who've been disowned by all go?

From a religious point of view, do you really think that Jesus would condone someone suffering due to one sin to cover it up with yet another, even worse sin? Do you think He'd think that would make it okay?
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


I'm taking a deep breath here...



Once again NO, it's not your views that get on my nerves(I can talk for hours about this with some people who have the same views as you and not get upset), it's your lack of listening and your approach to the discussion.

This is a perfect example right here. I've told you I don't know how many times that it's not your views. I've told you in here and I've told you in PM. Yet you still don't listen.

Well I read what you write and try to answer it in my own way, and it may seem like I don't listen but I do.
 
80sU2isBest said:





Exodus 21:22-23:
"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Do you really think God said this??

Isn't this just some Jewish Law?

It was just written by a man.
 
Knoxville state Rep. Stacey Campfield, who allegedly supports less government, wants "certificates for aborted fetuses," and some records would be public.

The party is hellbent on going down in flames. Are Republicans happy that the phrase attached to the GOP, "less government," is now the political joke of the nation?

I quote from Stacey's blog: More government controll does not make for a better country less government does. I think he needs to return to that post and put a line through that sentence.

Come on, politicos. Is some consistency really too much to ask?

NASHVILLE - Tennessee would collect death certificates for aborted fetuses under a bill introduced in the General Assembly by a Knoxville Republican.

Rep. Stacey Campfield said his bill would provide a way to track how many abortions are performed in Tennessee. The measure would also likely create public records on which women are having abortions.
http://blogs.knoxnews.com/knx/silence/archives/2007/02/more_gop_big_go.shtml

Im sure that if the government documents it all then the next stage is that much easier.
 
deep said:


Do you really think God said this??

Isn't this just some Jewish Law?

It was just written by a man.

According to the Bible, yes, God did say that. When Moses was on the mountain top, God gave him the complete law, not just the 10 commandments.
 
80sU2isBest said:


According to the Bible, yes, God did say that. When Moses was on the mountain top, God gave him the complete law, not just the 10 commandments.

Well

let's hope it is a translation problem.


Because it is not worthy of divine attribution.
 
trevster2k said:
Doesn't the morning after pill act like an abortion in the sense that it removes an attached embryo from the uterus? It's effective even after conception, isn't it unlike a diaphragm or condom or birth control pill.

I don't think anyone ever answered this( that I could see skimming through the thread) , but this is my understanding of how the makers of Plan B say it works.It prevents pregnancy mainly by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary, and may also prevent the fertilization of an egg. It may also work by preventing it from attaching to the uterus. It will not affect a fertilized egg already attached to the uterus- it will not affect an existing pregnancy. That's what they say, that it will not do that.

There is more information on their web site-of course that's their "side" of it so to speak, but I have no medical knowledge to say that what they say isn't true. I don't know if most people who oppose it are basing that opposition on contrary medical knowledge or just "other".
 
Butterscotch said:


From a religious point of view, do you really think that Jesus would condone someone suffering due to one sin to cover it up with yet another, even worse sin? Do you think He'd think that would make it okay?

All I'm saying is he would probably attack the root of the problem before anything...
 
deep said:


Well

let's hope it is a translation problem.


Because it is not worthy of divine attribution.

So says a man.

If you could completely understand God, he wouldn't be much of a God, would he?
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Acoording to some.
According to the Bible.

Now whether you believe in the Bible or not, I do not know.

But for people who don't believe in the Bible, I don't understand why the Jesus issue is important, anyway.
 
80sU2isBest said:

According to the Bible.

Now whether you believe in the Bible or not, I do not know.

But for people who don't believe in the Bible, I don't understand why the Jesus issue is important, anyway.

Where does it specifically say he was told other laws other than the 10 commandments?
 
80sU2isBest said:


So says a man.

If you could completely understand God, he wouldn't be much of a God, would he?


"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.
But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.


On the face of this
it is stupid.

Why would God say stupid things?


If you could understand God,he wouldn't be much of a God, would he?

Why wouldn't God speak in a way that he could be understood
 
deep said:

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.


On the face of this
it is stupid.

Why would God say stupid things?

Stupid according to who? You? Or to the mother? Or to the unborn child?

If you could understand God,he wouldn't be much of a God, would he?

Why wouldn't God speak in a way that he could be understood [/B]

That's not what 80s said. The actual quote was "completely understand God." I'm a parent. My daughter doesn't completely understand everything I say. Is that my problem? Her problem? Is it a problem at all? Or are there things she simply doesn't need to completely understand?
 
nathan1977 said:


Stupid according to who? You? Or to the mother? Or to the unborn child?



"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman

What if men are working, herding, running or fishing and the hit a pregnant woman?



" the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.


this is not silly?
does God's law take a back seat to a husband's whims or what some Court may or may not impose?

a better case can be made for

Thou shall not kill.
 
deep said:


Thou shall not kill.

Does that apply to babys in the mothers womb? If so and a baby is sucked out by a machine isn't that killing a living person?
 
according to Nathan1977 and 80s




God says to kill.



the scripture they are advocating and that they say are God'd words are from the NIV Bible

here is some more



7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
Personal Injuries
12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.

15 "Anyone who attacks [c] his father or his mother must be put to death.

16 "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.

17 "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

18 "If men quarrel and one hits the other with a stone or with his fist [d] and he does not die but is confined to bed, 19 the one who struck the blow will not be held responsible if the other gets up and walks around outside with his staff; however, he must pay the injured man for the loss of his time and see that he is completely healed.

20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.


It seems pretty obvious to me that these laws were written by men.
 
The entire bible was written by man. If this is true then why do you have faith in a higher being?
 
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