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Old 03-18-2003, 01:06 PM   #1
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A Question for Those of You Opposed to the War With Iraq

Suppose Bush decides to call off military action and continue down the diplomacy trail with Iraq.

Suppose 1 year from now, a dirty nuke, a real nuke or a bomb containing chemical or biological agents goes off in downtown Los Angeles, or Seattle or New York or London or Tel Aviv (or wherever). Suppose hundreds or even thousands die.

Suppose we are able to determine that it was supplied to the perpetrators by Iraq.

Would you reverse course and agree that Bush should have ordered military action against Iraq today? Or would you be of the opinion that now that Iraq has proven their propensity for this kind of deed, military action is necessary.
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Old 03-18-2003, 01:30 PM   #2
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First off, you posted this in the wrong forum newbie!



But seriously, there really is no point in arguing all sorts of scenarios. I guess there are scenarios to fit every agenda, but what we have to deal with is the here and now.

Suppose US forces go into Iraq, Saddam gives Israel a bad look and Israel launches his nukes causing arab nations to retalliate etc. Millions of casualties. Would you still think going into Iraq was a good thing?
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Old 03-18-2003, 01:41 PM   #3
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perpretating war is not a good thing.

i will stand my my feeling on this.

i feel sick inside at the thought of the loss of life.

whats the point of the scenario?
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Old 03-18-2003, 01:53 PM   #4
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I think someone has been watching too much "24"
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Old 03-18-2003, 02:32 PM   #5
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I'm sickened and disgusted by the thought of all of the lives that are going to be lost. This isn't even like Desert Storm, which had UN approval and support. This is going to make any threat more likely, not less likely.
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Old 03-18-2003, 03:56 PM   #6
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as long as the american administration thinks theyre right, what more support do they need? the supporters in the streets are fucking hippies who should be poisoned like the rodents they are.

come on, you and whos army
you and your cronies
holy roman empire
you think you can take us all on
you and and whos army
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Old 03-18-2003, 04:30 PM   #7
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My point is that Saddam is a proven threat to the US, his own people, the region and the rest of the world.

He's been in violation of the resolution that ended the Gulf War for 12 years and is obviously using diplomacy as a ploy.

Nobody thought 9/11 would happen - sounds like a story line from "24", doesn't it? Well, as you know - it happened.

How is today's Saddam any different than an 8/11/01 Osama? He's not.

If we could go back in time, to pre-9/11 - knowing what we know now, wouldn't you support a military effort againt the Taliban and Al Queda?

I sure would.

Saddam has been given many, many chances to avert War. He is not backing down, which implies his guilt as much as anything else.

If we wait, we could very well find ourselves in another huge mess.

War is ugly, but it appears to be necessary in this instance.

Let's just pray that it is swift and as accurate as possible.
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Old 03-18-2003, 11:13 PM   #8
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i was reading an editorial the other day and the writer said something about how these attacks could inspire "little osamas" to try and do something against the us.
Isnt the rule in the US "innocent until proven guilty"? If u havent commited the crime, even if ur about to ur still innocent.
i am glad that it is not me in Bush's shoes because the man has had to make some hard choices. However, I do believe that war should be an absolute last resort. A Plan Z if u will.
i was also reading about how one of the UN inspectors said it could take months to disarm. So Bush has been presurred to act. To make choices. And seeing as though he had already sent about a quarter of a million soldiers towards the middle east he had to act soon so that the heat of summer would not affect the moral of the soldiers who were sent.
War should be avoided as much as possible. Let us pray so that Bush makes the right choices. He's the one holding the wheel, he's responsible for the passengers...
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Old 03-18-2003, 11:49 PM   #9
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Suppose the coalition invades.

Iraq fires chemical weapons etc into Israel.

Israel responds with nukes.

The rest of the Arab states all attack Israel, and the region descends into chaos.
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Old 03-18-2003, 11:52 PM   #10
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*Just showing how the 'possible scenario' game can be played.
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Old 03-19-2003, 12:12 AM   #11
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good point brettig, but you make uncle same mad. and making uncle sam mad, aint cool. ask the chix of dixie.
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Old 03-19-2003, 01:59 AM   #12
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Re: A Question for Those of You Opposed to the War With Iraq

Quote:
Originally posted by One Tree Still
Suppose Bush decides to call off military action and continue down the diplomacy trail with Iraq.

Suppose 1 year from now, a dirty nuke, a real nuke or a bomb containing chemical or biological agents goes off in downtown Los Angeles, or Seattle or New York or London or Tel Aviv (or wherever). Suppose hundreds or even thousands die.

Suppose we are able to determine that it was supplied to the perpetrators by Iraq.

Would you reverse course and agree that Bush should have ordered military action against Iraq today? Or would you be of the opinion that now that Iraq has proven their propensity for this kind of deed, military action is necessary.
This could not be possible, because that would legitimize Bush's actions and we couldn't have any of that...
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Old 03-19-2003, 04:37 AM   #13
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They did a survey in South of Ireland recently and at the moment 66% are pretty sure Saddam will respond with Biological and Chemical Weapons...........and 33% are thinking he will take war 'into the west'.

I dont trust any of this......

I think we are truly all fuked right now.




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Old 03-19-2003, 05:19 AM   #14
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That's right, suppose Israel messes with Iraq and turns Arab countries into even bigger opposition than they already are?
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Old 03-19-2003, 11:40 AM   #15
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There are many possible scenarios - a meteor might smash into Iraq and take care of things for us - but my question has still not been answered.

Instead, it's been met by other, more unrealistic scenarios that bring other variables into the mix.
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Old 03-19-2003, 11:52 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by cloudimani
I think someone has been watching too much "24"
it's the best show on tv...you can't watch too much 24
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Old 03-21-2003, 10:01 PM   #17
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I have to agree, Arun V. Real- reality TV. 24 hasn't been on since, whenever. It is hitting a bit too close to reality.. Last episode, I think, (nuclear bomb went off in LA) made me cry. Geez, who wants to watch reality TV...lets watch a real war. May not see it again till this war dies down.... Won't hear the B52's in the Uk either, or Sunday Bloody Sunday, etc.
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Old 03-21-2003, 10:21 PM   #18
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just in case anyone was interested to know how long this war has really been going on, you can visit this site:

http://www.ccmep.org/usbombingwatch/2003.htm#2003

and really get frustrated.

i was having a discussion with my husband today and he wanted to know how I felt about the U.S. attacking/attempting to assasinate a world leader. He said he hadn't heard any condemnation of the U.S. trying to assasinate another world leader. I had heard brief mention of it on NPR...but it's too much of a condemnation of U.S. action for TV media to refer to the fact.

It's not a good feeling when the U.S. (the world's policeman?) violates many international laws. If the (so-called?) policemen are breaking the rules, what hope do we have to ask the rest of the world to abide by the rules?

I'm not saying Saddam should be forgiven or protected. I wish he wasn't in charge. But I also wish Bush wasn't in charge. It's just too easy for him to lead the country against a "known" enemy than to battle the scary, sickening, sad things that make life here in the U.S. so terrible for many. I'm talking about poverty, health care, literacy, racism, etc.

I'm not saying I want more terror attacks. I want all terror attacks to end. Maybe one way to do that is to pave the way for better relations between the U.S. and other nations. Maybe we need to think about abandoning our internationally exploitative capitalist economy. Maybe we need to be more tolerant of different faiths without accepting discrimination and violence. From ANY faith.

I am mostly sickened by the way people polarize into different corners and never even try to see the sense of protestors who *perhaps* legimiately fear the effects of this war...which VERY LIKELY could be the same effects of no war. Who's to say taking action or NOT taking action will cause more terror...or won't?

It's not really useful to just talk about any scenario, negative or positive, tomorrow or next year, without thinking about how our past actions (as a citizen, a city, a nation) have led us to where we are today, and using that KNOWLEDGE and LESSONS to guide our future choices. That's why this website is interesting. It gave me some perspective on what's been going on in the past. Throught my training as a historian, we always teased people who over-quoted Santana, but it's appropriate now. "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."

What lessons can we learn from the past? How can they help us now? Let's take a look at possible scenarios of the future and discuss rationally how we can work to avoid the worst ones and achieve the best....
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Old 03-22-2003, 02:01 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by elizabeth

i was having a discussion with my husband today and he wanted to know how I felt about the U.S. attacking/attempting to assasinate a world leader. He said he hadn't heard any condemnation of the U.S. trying to assasinate another world leader. I had heard brief mention of it on NPR...but it's too much of a condemnation of U.S. action for TV media to refer to the fact.

It's not a good feeling when the U.S. (the world's policeman?) violates many international laws. If the (so-called?) policemen are breaking the rules, what hope do we have to ask the rest of the world to abide by the rules?

I'm not saying Saddam should be forgiven or protected. I wish he wasn't in charge. But I also wish Bush wasn't in charge. It's just too easy for him to lead the country against a "known" enemy than to battle the scary, sickening, sad things that make life here in the U.S. so terrible for many. I'm talking about poverty, health care, literacy, racism, etc.

I'm not saying I want more terror attacks. I want all terror attacks to end. Maybe one way to do that is to pave the way for better relations between the U.S. and other nations. Maybe we need to think about abandoning our internationally exploitative capitalist economy. Maybe we need to be more tolerant of different faiths without accepting discrimination and violence. From ANY faith.

I am mostly sickened by the way people polarize into different corners and never even try to see the sense of protestors who *perhaps* legimiately fear the effects of this war...which VERY LIKELY could be the same effects of no war. Who's to say taking action or NOT taking action will cause more terror...or won't?

It's not really useful to just talk about any scenario, negative or positive, tomorrow or next year, without thinking about how our past actions (as a citizen, a city, a nation) have led us to where we are today, and using that KNOWLEDGE and LESSONS to guide our future choices. That's why this website is interesting. It gave me some perspective on what's been going on in the past. Throught my training as a historian, we always teased people who over-quoted Santana, but it's appropriate now. "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."

What lessons can we learn from the past? How can they help us now? Let's take a look at possible scenarios of the future and discuss rationally how we can work to avoid the worst ones and achieve the best....
It's a fine idea, except that you get wildly contradictory lessons from the different bits of the past, as I've found out after reading a gazillion viewpoints and articles on war, so I'm not really sure how much of a guide they can really provide.

I've got incredibly mixed feelings about the war and its consequences, but I'm sure as hell not conflicted about the idea of removing Saddam. I don't like Bush much and I hate the way he handled the case for war, but I'm genuinely baffled when people put him anywhere near Saddam. If anything you'll get an opportunity to replace him come the next election; no such luck for Iraq.

While I agree that US needs to work on establishing better relations with the other countries, I do not think that the terrorism problems have everything to do with the way US behaves itself, but also with the other countries, too, and IMO it's naive to think that the peace only ever requires the effort from one side.
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Old 03-22-2003, 07:46 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by brettig
*Just showing how the 'possible scenario' game can be played.
I am afraid that the most probable scenario is that sooner or later US will come under terrorist attack, more devastating that 9/11...
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