A question for liberals

[Macfistowannabe]

If I may ramble on, I'd like to drag my example of the Unitarian church.

Let's say I just so happen to go there, and meet someone who believes that Voodoo and Witchcraft will get him into heaven. I wouldn't necessarily be open to that possibility, and the voodooist (sp?) would not likely be open to the possibility that without the belief in Jesus, his way of life is useless.

In conclusion, neither of us are truly open-minded, and willing to accept that we could be wrong.

 

[BVS]

If I may ramble on, I'd like to drag my example of the Unitarian church.

Let's say I just so happen to go there, and meet someone who believes that Voodoo and Witchcraft will get him into heaven. I wouldn't necessarily be open to that possibility, and the voodooist (sp?) would not likely be open to the possibility that without the belief in Jesus, his way of life is useless.

In conclusion, neither of us are truly open-minded, and willing to accept that we could be wrong.

So if you have an opinion you can't be open minded? Don't buy it.

Let's go with your example. Ok now there are those that think THIS way is the only way to heaven. But there are those that believe this is the way I'm getting to heaven but you may get there another way, like me.

But just because I've found my path doesn't mean I'm not open minded.

By your definition to be open minded you would have to change your mind with every suggestion you are given. I think you're missing the point.

 

[madroseka]

I'm not sure if you are interpreting what he is trying to say.(maybe I'm not either) If you have an opinion that doesn't neccesarily mean doesn't mean your not open minded to something else, it means you are more inclined to follow and defend your predeposed position. For example if I say I like to down load U2 in lossless formats. You give me 15 valid reasons why MP3s are the way to go. Mp3s may be the best thing since sliced bread but I am more inclinded to go lossless. Because of my pre-decided position I dismiss your argument. This argument can go for a very many things, including the liberal/conservative debate. All in all I think that his orginal point in that nobody is truly open minded, unless they have no real personal conviction on an issue. Otherwise you are always going to lean one way or the other.

Just on second point I think most people dont change thier minds until they are presented with information about a subject that was unknown to them before. You reevaluate your stance and consider the new info, change your position or hold it. Its just human nature

 

[madroseka]

or Im a blithering Idiot, that could be to....hehe

 

[BVS]

All in all I think that his orginal point in that nobody is truly open minded, unless they have no real personal conviction on an issue. Otherwise you are always going to lean one way or the other.

I get that but I don't buy it. You can have conviction and still be open to other ideas as long as you realize you are human and can be wrong.

 

[melon]

If I'm going to be accused of being intolerant of bigots, then hey...I'm guilty as charged.

Melon

 

[madroseka]

I get that but I don't buy it. You can have conviction and still be open to other ideas as long as you realize you are human and can be wrong.

Thats true, but you also have to admit that being human your going to tend to favor issues that are in line with you beliefs. Your point is taken though.

 

[BVS]

Thats true, but you also have to admit that being human your going to tend to favor issues that are in line with you beliefs. Your point is taken though.

Very true. I can't claim to be open minded 100% of the time, but I do believe that true open mindedness exists.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I think it can exist, but only up to the point where one is willing to admit they may be at fault. Anything after that without universal certainty is likely to be a leap of faith or a jump to conclusions.

 

[BVS]

I think it can exist, but only up to the point where one is willing to admit they may be at fault. Anything after that without universal certainty is likely to be a leap of faith or a jump to conclusions.

Well I'm human so of course I will be wrong from time to time. That's how I've always looked at life.

 

[pax]

Fwiw, due to the flame war that resulted, I'm closing this thread.

The closing has nothing to do with the thread's original author or authorial intent--let me be very clear.

Thanks.

 

[BVS]

Spokane Mayor Jim West. Now here's an interesting one.

Very outspoken against homosexuals, yet you find out he's gay.

You've got to hand it to the Republicans, they stick together and don't question a thing. Even if it means hating yourself or in the case of the Baptist Minister in the other thread turning your back on God.

 

[verte76]

Spokane Mayor Jim West. Now here's an interesting one.

Very outspoken against homosexuals, yet you find out he's gay.

You've got to hand it to the Republicans, they stick together and don't question a thing. Even if it means hating yourself or in the case of the Baptist Minister in the other thread turning your back on God.

I'm not surprised. This is going to happen a bunch.

 

[U2Kitten]

I'd like you to explain that one.

Because if you are set in your ways and steadfast in your opinion an no one can waver it, then your mind is alread CLOSED on that subject. I don't think there's a person here who doesn't fit that description. No matter what side you're on, if your mind is made up on something and it's not ever changing, that's the way it is!

I have a couple of problems with the term myself, as I do with most liberal terminology. First, it's just a catch phrase used by liberals to make everyone feel that if they don't support their positions, they are stupid, backward, lacking, or wrong. If you don't want to be CLOSED MINDED, you'll believe like they do! So it's more of a way to say their positions on the issues are superior than actual closed mindedness.

Think about this: what is open mindedness? You may say, open to new ideas, not shutting the door on possibilities. Yet, everyone here, on both sides, has already made up their minds where they stand on issues, stick to that, fight over it, and refuse to let anyone else's post change their mind one iota. So how "open" is that, really? Sounds closed to me! So again, I think it's the thing where certain positions are supposed to be accepted as 'open minded' rather than actually having an open mind, and that's wrong. Think about this too: if your mind were truly 'open', you'd have no convictions, no values, no mind of your own, really, because if your mind is always changing, what do your really stand for? But of course no one goes around changing their mind back and forth all the time (well, except Kerry and Clinton, but they didn't mean it, they were only being political butt kissers) Who wants to be a wishy washy back and forth spineless, mindless blob anyway? Isn't it better to know you stand for something, and be proud of it?

So- if your mind is made up and it's not changing, no matter what anyone says, if you'd rather lecture someone on the virtues of your position instead of being swayed to theirs, then your mind is closed. I don't see a damn thing wrong with that. My mind is 'open' if I don't have enough info on a subject, if I need to listen to all sides, if I need to research it to see where I stand. I have done this with everything I comment on here (and if you notice, there are many threads I don't post in because I can't do that and won't) but once I have come to a conclusion, that's it, nobody is going to change me. And aren't you ALL like that??!!

 

[BVS]

Well like I've said many times in here, I've changed my stance on a few issues over the span of the few years I've been coming to FYM. And my views on many things have changed over the last 10 years of my life outside of interference.

So needless to say I find your view very narrow.

 

[Se7en]

So- if your mind is made up and it's not changing, no matter what anyone says, if you'd rather lecture someone on the virtues of your position instead of being swayed to theirs, then your mind is closed. I don't see a damn thing wrong with that. My mind is 'open' if I don't have enough info on a subject, if I need to listen to all sides, if I need to research it to see where I stand. I have done this with everything I comment on here (and if you notice, there are many threads I don't post in because I can't do that and won't) but once I have come to a conclusion, that's it, nobody is going to change me. And aren't you ALL like that??!!

i don't think this is necessarily true. i've been through a lot of changes over the past 3 years or so. prior to that you would have found me arguing on the other side of issues.

 

[pax]

My mind is 'open' if I don't have enough info on a subject, if I need to listen to all sides, if I need to research it to see where I stand. I have done this with everything I comment on here...

 

[U2Kitten]

Huh? I have done a lot of research on everything I comment on here, and if I haven't, I stay out of the thread.

Incidently, most of the negative view I have of abortion has come not from Pat Robertson, but from people I actually knew who had them

Gays- I used to be somebody who laughed at gay jokes, but once I knew gay people, and really thought about it, I accepted them and felt bad for them when people shut the door on them just for what they are. Again, personal experience, looking into a position.

Nope, I stand behind my comment- my life experiences and the people I've met have made me what I am, and I am not ashamed of it, just because you don't like it.

And I do not know why I get the rep for being such a flaming right wing tyrant- other than abortion, I really don't have a problem with what anyone does Like I said, don't hurt anyone, and don't destroy anyone's shit, and you're fine with me. I don't care if you run a prostitution ring, marry your dog, or do lines on your fucking kitchen table every day. The reason I hate gun control is not because I like guns, I don't, I hate them and I hate hunting. But if someone else wants to own one, that is not my business, and I don't think it's the government's, either. If you think all guns should be taken away, come on, how tyrannical and closed minded is that? See, it's all used so conveniently. And Pax, I know you just can't stand me personally for the things I've said. You never fail to jump right on me, while letting rude comments and jokes against me slide.

 

[pax]

I'm not buying this.

You've made comments in FYM which have, I suspect, been hurtful to people precisely because you have not had enough information to make a judgment. You've made your own experiences and the experiences of people you know the be-all and end-all of what you think and feel about, in particular, abortion. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinions, but that does not mean that the ways in which you state them are not occasionally painful for other people.

It's one thing to say, for example, that abortion is a terrible choice with which women--and men--are confronted, and that you believe that as a society we need better and more options in alternative to abortion. It's one thing to disapprove of abortion, even to completely disappove of abortion, on moral or ethical grounds and to say so. But what you've done, on more than one occasion, is presumed to know the mind and heart of every single person who's ever had an abortion, or who has been with a woman who had an abortion, for reasons other than (say) the preservation of the life of the mother. And you don't know. And this is why I reject your claim that your beliefs are so very "well-researched" and "open-minded."

This is why I suspect a lot of other people will as well, and why I think people tend to get upset at your posts.

Just a thought.

 

[U2Kitten]

How do you know what the hell I've read and researched? Because it doesn't agree with the same conclusions YOU have come to? How closed minded is that? Pax, I find your comment very personally insulting. Dammit, you don't know me, and your judgements are mistaken. But of course every liberal wants to believe anyone who disagrees with them is stupid, backward and lacking, and wrong, just as I posted a minute ago. That's exactly why you are judging me now.

I think the REAL reason so many people have problems with my posts is because I say things they don't want to hear or think about, things they want to hide under comfy little terms to make themselves feel better.

 

[BVS]

Nope, I stand behind my comment- my life experiences and the people I've met have made me what I am, and I am not ashamed of it, just because you don't like it.

Ironic given the subject at hand.

And I do not know why I get the rep for being such a flaming right wing tyrant

Maybe comments such as this help that rep.

as I do with most liberal terminology. First, it's just a catch phrase used by liberals to make everyone feel that if they don't support their positions, they are stupid, backward, lacking, or wrong. If you don't want to be CLOSED MINDED, you'll believe like they do!

 

[U2Kitten]

I stand behind that statement 100%

It is just the abortion thing, isn't it? You hate me for breaking down the sugar coating you like to hide it under.

 

[BVS]

I stand behind that statement 100%

It is just the abortion thing, isn't it? You hate me for breaking down the sugar coating you like to hide it under.

And that is why you come off the way you do.

A closed mind will never be able to recognise an open one.

 

[U2Kitten]

Go ahead, ban me outa here, then you can have your happy little world of only the things you want to believe.

 

[BVS]

Go ahead, ban me outa here, then you can have your happy little world of only the things you want to believe.

Oh but you bring so much insight.

 

[U2Kitten]

And that is why you come off the way you do.

A closed mind will never be able to recognise an open one.

Oh God! You are just as bad, you think you know everything and are right. But the open/closed mind BULLSHIT is just more garbage used to make yourself look noble and right and put down those who don't agree. Your mind is closed to me and my view, so there!

 

[U2Kitten]

Oh but you bring so much insight.

What, is your mind CLOSED to my insight? Have you CLOSED your mind to something? GASP! See, you are so self righteous and hyypocritical! If your mind was so fucking OPEN why are you rolling your eyes at me? Because you've read what I said and don't agree? I feel the same about you! So why am I closed and you open? It goes both ways!

 

[BVS]

Oh God! You are just as bad, you think you know everything and are right. But the open/closed mind BULLSHIT is just more garbage used to make yourself look noble and right and put down those who don't agree. Your mind is closed to me and my view, so there!

No, actually I'd probably listen to you if you were ever able to discuss an issue without personal attacks. I mean you have to notice the pattern in here and in most forums, discussions with you are next to impossible.

 

[pax]

As someone who considers herself to be pro-choice, I am nevertheless not "closed-minded," as it were, to pro-life views. Indeed, I wish we had the kind of society in which women felt like every child--including the children of the poor, the unemployed, the mentally ill, the drug-addicted, the illegally immigrated, the terminally ill, the prostitute, etc. etc. etc.--was truly a welcome and wanted child.

If the "pro-life" crowd as a whole (and--listen to me here--there are quite a few folks in the pro-life crowd who truly do feel this way, and that includes post-ers here) would proclaim that message, I think they might get more folks on their side. Every child a wanted child--bring your child into the world, don't abort it, someone will love it and take good care of it. Great message. Great goal. I'd love to be a part of it.

But until that actually happens, I do not believe abortion should be illegal. Because I do not, and cannot, know the minds and hearts of people facing those choices. All I can do is, should I ever be faced with such a decision, live the choice I wish everyone would or could make--that is, to go through with an unplanned pregnancy.