A parsonal responce to" WTF is going on in Israel today???"...(pleaes read!)

[MEMHPIS-EVE 007]

Originally posted by U2girl:

This conflict has been going for so long, who's to say if there's a way to end it? Even if Palestinians should get a state someday?

U know U2Girl ,I ask that myself every day!
I`m one of the few Israelians who believe that the palestinians should have their oun countryand that the alnd has been taken form them not It might bring a temporary relaxation but for how long?! In the worst case they`ll become a country, build a strong army and the attac us again as a country. It`s just so confusing! BECAUSE THEY DO DISERVE UNDIPENDENCE!
After all, if we do then they do to!

[This message has been edited by MEMHPIS-EVE 007 (edited 04-09-2002).]

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by U2girl:
This conflict has been going for so long, who's to say if there's a way to end it? Even if Palestinians should get a state someday?

If the Palestinians do get a state someday, it is my fervent hope that Yassir Arafat is not the head of the Palestinian Authority at the time. I am convincd that the man wants nothing less than the destruction of the state of Israel.

[speedracer]

Originally posted by chain:

Calling for genocide is not the answer.

Shame on you.

He's not advocating genocide, he's being extremely cynical and pessimistic.

[Vorsprung]

I think there could be another way to peace than I stated in my earlier more pessimistic and nihilistic post about the total annihilation of both the Israeli and Palestinian people, but that would need to come from international intervention. Which for some reason Israel doesn't want.
Now this solution is very simple and probably also very naive, but I want to know what's wrong with it:

* Israel will retreat its army and its settlers from the occupied Palestinian areas
* Get a corridor between Israel and Palestina guarded by international armed forces to protect both the Palestinian and Isreali people
* A treaty will be signed (we will not attack each other)
* Breaking this treaty will have to cause serious sanctions from the international community

Also....it might just help not calling either Sharon or Arafat a terrorist or an asshole, no matter is they are or are not.

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Vorsprung:
I think there could be another way to peace than I stated in my earlier more pessimistic and nihilistic post about the total annihilation of both the Israeli and Palestinian people

I can't find a post in which you said that. Did it get deleted or something?

[Vorsprung]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
I can't find a post in which you said that. Did it get deleted or something?

http://forum.interference.com/u2feed.../001266-3.html

Just below two of your replies.....



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Vorsprung durch Technik

[80sU2isBest]

Aaah, I see it. Thanks for shopwing me that.

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by Vorsprung:
I think there could be another way to peace

Now this solution is very simple and probably also very naive, but I want to know what's wrong with it:

* Israel will retreat its army and its settlers from the occupied Palestinian areas
* Get a corridor between Israel and Palestina guarded by international armed forces to protect both the Palestinian and Isreali people
* A treaty will be signed (we will not attack each other)
* Breaking this treaty will have to cause serious sanctions from the international community

Also....it might just help not calling either Sharon or Arafat a terrorist or an asshole, no matter is they are or are not.

That truly would work, however, the Palestinian leadership would have to be one that is looking for peace, one that is looking to develop their country rather than just live with the sole goal of eliminating Israel, which is what is present there at the moment.. Arafat has shown time and time again he does not want peace in any shape or form.. Only when he's cowering under an elementary school's desk does he Yell for peace.

I'd be interested to hear more about what sanctions you could slam on what would be a 'Palestinian State'... In my idiotic ways, I'd dare ya to find an 'Economic' way to sanction them...

With 2nd Most Winter Olympic Medals,
L.Unplugged

[Vorsprung]

Is that tre??? Do they really want that?? Does Arafat really wants that. Well, maybe he personnally would be pleased if that happened, but do the palestinians want to give up there chance for peace for that. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Sharon is happy when all Palestinians would be annihilated. Sure, many Israeli and Palestinians hate each other, and both have enough reasons to do so, but that hate alone isn't enough. They also are realistic enough that neither one of them will leave the region. But you will have to trust each other a bit. Saying the Palestinians never want peace is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Back in 1988 Arafat stated that they do want peace on the base of resolution 242. Now you may not believe him, but you have no proof for not believing him (remembering that Israel so far never complied with the demands of resolution 242) and as I stated before will only lead to more violence

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Vorsprung durch Technik

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by Vorsprung:
Now you may not believe him, but you have no proof for not believing him (remembering that Israel so far never complied with the demands of resolution 242) and as I stated before will only lead to more violence

No Proof?.. I haven't got the time to compile a list of articles with information, but just a few years ago, with the Peace Convention.. (I forget the name).. but anyways, Arafat was practically offered the world, everything that a man with the intention of peaceful living would desire, and he turned it down.

L.Unplugged

[lady lemonade]

Originally posted by Lemonite:
No Proof?.. I haven't got the time to compile a list of articles with information, but just a few years ago, with the Peace Convention.. (I forget the name).. but anyways, Arafat was practically offered the world, everything that a man with the intention of peaceful living would desire, and he turned it down.

L.Unplugged

The Camp David Agreement which offered 95-98% of the territory asked by the Palestinians. Rejected by Arafat.

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by lady lemonade:
The Camp David Agreement which offered 95-98% of the territory asked by the Palestinians. Rejected by Arafat.

Thanks L.Lemonade.. Also. Vorsprung.. Just reference the last Israel/Palestinian thread where we spent about 150 posts giving evidence and proof...

L.Unplugged

[Vorsprung]

The Camp David 2000 Proposal proposed 73% of the Westbank to the Palestinians. In later stages (10-25 years) Israel would cede additional areas, particularly in the mountains overlooking the Jordan valley, to bring the total area to slightly under 90% of the area of the West Bank.
Also, it would make Palestina a semi-sovereign state like the Eastern European Countries were during the cold war.

The Camp David 2000 proposal:

1. Palestinian Statehood and Conditions

A Palestinian state would be established in most of the West Bank and all of the Gaza strip, with these conditions:

The state would not have an army with heavy weapons,
The state would not make alliances with other countries without Israeli approval and would not allow introduction of foreign forces west of the River Jordan.
Israel would be allowed deploy troops in the Jordan Valley if Israel were to be threatened by invasion from the east.
Israeli aircraft could overfly Palestinian airspace.
Israeli would install early warning stations in the mountains overlooking the Jordan valley and other areas.
Palestinians would control border crossings with Jordan and Egypt along with Israeli security observation.
The Israelis would retain management over water sources in the West Bank while approving a limited quota to the Palestinians.
Israel would lease areas in the Jordan Valley or maintain temporary sovereignty over them for up to 25 years.

2. Refugees

The Palestine refugee problem would be solved in the following way:

Israel would not accept any legal or civilian responsibility for their displacement.
Israel would allow the return of around 100,000 refugees under “humanitarian” grounds in the form of family reunions and considers such a step as compliance with UN Resolution 194.
According to one source, the Palestinian State would be limited in the number of refugees it could absorb to half a million refugees according to a fixed timetable. This is not confirmed by other sources and is problematic, since a much larger number of refugees, well over a million, already live in camps in Gaza and the West Bank.
An international fund would compensate refugees. Israel, the U.S. and Europe are to contribute. According to one source, this fund would also provide compensation to Jews who were forced to leave their possessions in Arab countries when they fled to Israel.

3. Jerusalem

Palestine would obtain sovereignty over suburbs in the north and the south of Jerusalem that would be annexed to the West Bank, including Abu Dees, Alezariye and eastern Sawahre.

Within East Jerusalem, in (Beit Hanina-Shuafat), there would be a civilian administration affiliated with the Palestinian Authority with the possibility of linking it to West Jerusalem through a municipality covering both sectors. The Palestinians would run a branch municipality within the framework of the Israeli higher municipal council while depriving them from planning and construction jurisdictions.

Palestinian, Arab, Islamic and Christian administration of holy shrines in the old city of Jerusalem. The Palestinians would be allowed to hoist the Palestinian flag over the Islamic and Christian shrines along with a safe passage linking northern Jerusalem, which would be annexed to the West Bank, to those areas so that Palestinians and Muslims would not pass through lands under Israeli sovereignty.

4. Land Area of Palestine

The initial area of the Palestinian state would comprise about 73% of the land area of the West Bank and all of Gaza. The West Bank would be divided by the road from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea and a corridor on either side of it. This would form two relatively large Palestinian areas and one small enclave surrounding Jericho. The three areas would be joined by a free passage without checkpoints, but the safe passage could be closed by Israel in case of emergency. According to Palestinian sources, there would be another division beween the area north of the Ariel and Shilo settlements along the trans-Shomron highway built by Israel.

In later stages (10-25 years) Israel would cede additional areas, particularly in the mountains overlooking the Jordan valley, to bring the total area to slightly under 90% of the area of the West Bank

The major settlement blocks adjacent to Jerusalem and in the Jerusalem corridor would be annexed to Israel: Efrat, Gush Etzion, Ma'ale Edumim. The town of Ariel and 8the corridor along the trans-Samaria highway would be annexed to Israel. The Jewish settlement town of Qiriat Arba would remain under Israeli administration in the heart of Palestinian territory, with a single road through Palestinian territory reaching it from the south. Isolated Jewish settlements including the settlement in Hebron, would come under Palestinian jurisdiction and would probably be abandoned.

Now this may seem a good start, the problem however with treaties is, is that it isn't a start. If you sign, you're stuck to it. Also, what would you think of it if you're country is first taken by your neighbouring country, and than they give you this proposal. Also remember that the land the Palestinians have left today already is about half of the land they were proposed to get in 1947.
And I'm not even talking about the legitimacy of the birth of the state Israel, which was mainly possible because of the collective feeling of guilt towards the horrors of the holocaust. Guilt because they weren't able or willing to prevent it and this guilt and feeling of sorryness made the birth of this nation possible.
Also, they had the luck that Palestina was a British mandate territory they could easily give away without minding the original population too much (it were the last days of colonial thinking). They're wouldn't be an Israel if Jerusalem happened to be in East Sussex.
They were given a country by the powerful countries because they felt sorry and guilty. If WWII hadn't happened, Israel wouldn't have existed.

My point? Well, I'm not an anti-semite, but yes, I am an anti-zionist. However, I do recognize the state of Israel and I surely don't want it to be annihilated, but I do think that Israel should be damn happy they have their own country and have no right at all to claim even a little bit more.

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Vorsprung durch Technik

[This message has been edited by Vorsprung (edited 04-09-2002).]

[STING2]

Dr. Teeth and Vorsprung,
You guys seem to leave out the fact that Israel was invaded in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973. The Arab states and Palestinian resistence forces are the ones that have caused the great problems in this region. The original UN plan in 1948 was fair, and Israels slice of land was rather small compared to Palestines. Plus Jerusalem was to be a UN city. But no, the Arabs and the Palestinians wanted war instead of peace. Israel wanted peace and country and agreed to the plan. The root of the problem has been Arabs and Palestinians attacks over the years on Israel to destroy the country.
Israel even with Palestinian land is very small country to defend. It is amazing that Israel is still a country today given the odds in fighting so many Arab countries with large populations. The security problems that Israel faces are extreme, and the restrictions placed on the Palestinians in the Camp David accord are reasonable given Israels massive security problems.
Bottom line, you have to have an agreement that insures Israels safety and security before the Palestinians can ever have a state. There is no way around it. One can only wonder how things could have been if the Arabs and Palestinians had accepted the 1948 UN proposal. The Arabs and Palestinians have only themselves to blame when it comes to not having a state and war that has occured since 1948. Only when Arabs and Palestinians work to make sure that Israel is safe and secure instead of strapping bombs on uneducated teens and trying to destroy Israel, will you see a Palestinian state. Israels reacts when its security is threatened and will continue to do so. Palestinians need a new strategy that does not involve weapons or bombs but working to make Israel secure. Otherwise there will never be a Palestinian state.
The Camp David 2000 agreement is the best the Palestinians are ever going to get. Their rejection is absurd and shows that they are not serious about peace. Bomb making materials and rockets were recently found under Arafats compound clearly showing that he supports the terrorist movement.
After 9/11, you would think that Arafat and Palestinians would of stop their terror activities. Instead, Palestinians danced in the streets and honked their car horns at the news of 9/11. Clearly they showed that they are on the side of Terror. Until that changes, and until they get a new leader that does not support terrorism, the Palestinians will never have a state.

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by STING2:
After 9/11, you would think that Arafat and Palestinians would of stop their terror activities. Instead, Palestinians danced in the streets and honked their car horns at the news of 9/11. Clearly they showed that they are on the side of Terror. Until that changes, and until they get a new leader that does not support terrorism, the Palestinians will never have a state.

Have you noticed.. that Since Sharon has started Raiding the Terrorist Hideouts as well as the US raiding Afghanistan to root out the terrorists.. There Have been no more Terrorist Attacks in Either Place.

More proof that the only way to deal with these terrorists is with FORCE.. Not negotiating.. Not Cups of Tea.. Force.

L.Unplugged

[Vorsprung]

Originally posted by STING2:
[BThe original UN plan in 1948 was fair, and Israels slice of land was rather small compared to Palestines. [/B]

Fair to whom?!?!?!?!?
In the original plan Palestina was split up in equal parts: about 50% each.
Now how can that be fair?!?!?!?!? 50% of their country was given away to a people that are not from that country. That's like giving away all American states using EST to Gypsies people, because they also don't have their own land, they also suffered severely from the holocaust, they also we're a target of racism throughout history and they also don't come from that place. Sure, there's a religious connection between the jews and Israel, but that shouldn't give them any rights. They have been gone there for ages.

The Arabs never wanted a Jewish state on their territory and have always made that very clear, way before there even was an Israel, but the Western simply told them to shut up and accept it.


About terrorism. It's the only way they have. They don't have an army. Terrorism is stigmatised too much after 9/11. They see it as resistance, and it's the only way of resistance they have. My grandmother's brothers were in the dutch resistance movement during World War II. The Nazi's called it terrorism....it was terrorism, but it also was resistance.

And Israel....isn't Israel committing terrorism as well. Destroying the entire infrastructure of Palestina "because terrorists make use of it". Of course they do!!!! Everybody there makes use of it!!! Or destroying hundreds of houses of people because they suspect that some of them are used by terrorist. Well, the more houses you destroy the more chance you'll have a terrorist used one of them.... Or dragging severely injured people out of ambulances because they just might be a terrorist.

And sure, the number of attacks have dropped since the Israeli actions. No Palestinian is allowed to get out of there house, how can you attack someone that way. But much worse, you're oppressing a people this way about as worse you can oppress a people, taking away all their freedom.

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Vorsprung durch Technik

[U2Bama]

Vorsprung & DrTeeth:

(I hate to ask this because I know people will get mad at me for it, but I am only asking because I am curious).

Is your solution the same as that of Hamas & Hezbollah, the total elimination of the state of Israel from the area?

~U2Alabama

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by Vorsprung:
No Palestinian is allowed to get out of there house, how can you attack someone that way. But much worse, you're oppressing a people this way about as worse you can oppress a people, taking away all their freedom.

Based on what a couple of Israelis have said in this forum, it is not much different for them; they can't go to a theater, restaurant or nightclub for fear of it being blown up.

~U2Alabama

[DrTeeth]

[sarcasm]U2Bama, if you're trying to be funny it could be wise to add a so that the rest of us know you haven't been smoking anything.[/sarcasm]

For the record, I don't want to remove Israel from the area but if I could turn back time I would have voted for an Israel in another region.

To be honest, I don't know what the solution to the conflict is. Ending violence and give the Palestines their own state might be a nice start. What's the worst that can happen? Suicide-bombers attacking Israel?

[This message has been edited by DrTeeth (edited 04-09-2002).]

[STING2]

Vorsprung,
Palestine was not a country in 1948. The area became a british protectorate after the end of World War I and the defeat of the Ottoman Empire. Between those events there was not an independent Palestine. The first opportunity for an independent Palestine came in 1948 and was offered by the United Nations.
The Ottoman Empire which had controled the region before World War I had an open emigration policy for Jews and Christians or those simply from other countries that wanted to live there. This idea that all the Jews showed up in 1948 is false. Jews and Christians had been living there as long if not longer than any Muslims although their numbers were much smaller do to Muslim invasions over a thousand years ago and a higher birth rate among Muslims over many years.
In light of this, the 1948 agreement was more than fair and gave Palestine its first opportunity of being an independent State. How could that be unfair? Instead because of intolerance and disrespect of Jews, the Arabs and Palestinians chose war instead of peace and tried to kill all the Jews there. They failed and lost more land because of their attempts. Every attempt they make to destory Israel just leads to more land lost and more hardship for Palestinians. When will someone on the Arab side begin to learn from their mistakes?
It should also be noted that the IDF is not a terrorist force. If it were, there would not be any Palestinians alive today. The IDF has enough weaponry and military hardware to wipe them all out in a short period of time, BUT they have not because they are NOT terrorist and believe in human rights! But they also are willing to fight for their survival and are willing to put restrictions on Palestinians to prevent terrorist attacks.
Contrary to popular belief, the situation of many Palestinians is not as desperate as Arab media make it sound. The Palestinians have supermarkets and cars while people in Subsaharan Africa die of starvation and aids on a mass scale. Over a Billion people have it worse than the Palestinians do, yet that don't strap bombs on themselves and go into Supermarkets killing innocent civilians that have nothing to do with what is going on in the West Bank and Gaza.
I also would not call strapping yourself with a bomb to go kill underage teens at a dance party on Saturday night to be a legit form of resistance against Israel's soldiers miles away on the West Bank. How by any sick twisted logic could you think that is resistance? Everyone knows that Palestinians don't have an army except for Humas and Hezbolah. Explain how targeting civilians many miles away from the source of tension is resistance?
You could argue it might be a form of resistance against Israels soldiers on the West Bank, BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE SUICIDE BOMBERS target. They target NON-MILITARY individuals in downtown crowded area's of Israel with the only intent of killing as many Israely women men and childern, who have nothing to do with the conflict, as possible. That is sick and the same thing that Terrorist did to my country on 9/11.
Israel operation in the West Bank is taking longer because of Israels attempts to LIMIT civilian losses. If Civilian losses were not a concern, the operation would have been over days ago. The Israely Airforce could easily firebomb any of these Palestinian cities. But they do not because they can and want to achieve their military objectives without mass loss of civilian life. Palestinian resistance fighters on the other hand want to kill all Jews period. Unusually they tend to attack civilians in nightclubs and hotels rather than Israely soldiers that are on border check points or on the West Bank.
I'm sure your Grandparents in the resistance for the Netherlands went after German soldiers instead of strapping themselves with bombs and walking into downtown part of a german city to simply kill german civilians looking for food or going to church.