a loving God and the Tsunami

[pax]

I don't agree that this kind of event is inconsistent with the existence of a loving God, but I also don't agree that God is not to be questioned. Maybe I draw this more from a Jewish tradition than a Christian one, but I always liked a Jewish conception of conversation with God. The Jews I know are very comfortable with doubt, conflict, even anger as far as God goes, and they believe that "having it out" with God eventually makes their faith stronger and their relationship with God closer.

There are some great images of that kind of struggle in the OT--Jacob wrestling the angel is one of my (and Bono's, too, I think--LOL) favorite Bible stories ever. And the book of Job is almost one lengthy argument with God--carried on by Job, a righteous man who loses everything and finally wants to know why. And he does actually get some answers.

Is God "answerable" to us in the way that a child is to a parent? No, of course not. But I think that it's irresponsible of us to simply sit back and say, "Oh, whatever, it's God's will." It might well be God's will, but to not struggle with that, to not continue to ask questions of oneself and of God and of our fellow persons of faith, is a cop-out. Albert Einstein it was, I believe, who said that God would not have bestowed us with reason if God did not expect us to use it.

 

[BVS]

I don't agree that this kind of event is inconsistent with the existence of a loving God, but I also don't agree that God is not to be questioned. Maybe I draw this more from a Jewish tradition than a Christian one, but I always liked a Jewish conception of conversation with God. The Jews I know are very comfortable with doubt, conflict, even anger as far as God goes, and they believe that "having it out" with God eventually makes their faith stronger and their relationship with God closer.

There are some great images of that kind of struggle in the OT--Jacob wrestling the angel is one of my (and Bono's, too, I think--LOL) favorite Bible stories ever. And the book of Job is almost one lengthy argument with God--carried on by Job, a righteous man who loses everything and finally wants to know why. And he does actually get some answers.

Is God "answerable" to us in the way that a child is to a parent? No, of course not. But I think that it's irresponsible of us to simply sit back and say, "Oh, whatever, it's God's will." It might well be God's will, but to not struggle with that, to not continue to ask questions of oneself and of God and of our fellow persons of faith, is a cop-out. Albert Einstein it was, I believe, who said that God would not have bestowed us with reason if God did not expect us to use it.

Agree 100%

 

[Irvine511]

Maybe I draw this more from a Jewish tradition than a Christian one, but I always liked a Jewish conception of conversation with God. The Jews I know are very comfortable with doubt, conflict, even anger as far as God goes, and they believe that "having it out" with God eventually makes their faith stronger and their relationship with God closer.

Bra-VO.

i was raised catholic, but my mother is from brooklyn and i've spent ages visiting Manhattan, so maybe i was really meant to be jewish, since this makes SO much more sense to me than the sometimes shrill preachiness i hear out of more Christian mouths. argue, fight, debate -- isn't that what God would want, for you to use your brain and make faith (or its absence) a living, breathing, burning concept?

 

[stammer476]

A pastor once told me, "Go ahead and yell at God. He's big enough to handle it."

And I think that's a necessity for genuine faith. It's not living in the shallow end of a repetitive religion, but being honest enough to show your REAL self to God, and waiting for Him to show His REAL self to you.

 

[verte76]

Oh, I have no trouble getting angry with God! I figure He can handle it.

 

[nbcrusader]

There are some great images of that kind of struggle in the OT--Jacob wrestling the angel is one of my (and Bono's, too, I think--LOL) favorite Bible stories ever. And the book of Job is almost one lengthy argument with God--carried on by Job, a righteous man who loses everything and finally wants to know why. And he does actually get some answers.

I think Job teaches us a lot in these type of situations. Job is an interesting conversation between Job, God and some of Job's friends.

After all his children died, Job was faced with the choice of turning away from God or worshiping. He chose worship.

The Psalms are another great source of expressions of doubt, anger and dismay to God. But as you read through the Psalms, the result is the worship and praise of the Almighty.

 

[Irvine511]

The Psalms are another great source of expressions of doubt, anger and dismay to God. But as you read through the Psalms, the result is the worship and praise of the Almighty.

well, of course. no instruction manuel is going to tell you that the product you've just purchased doesn't work.

isn't the process the most important thing? the journey? seems to me that Faith is almost irrelevant to the process of confirming, or denying, Faith. these days, with my Faith well on the wane, i'm finding the process of systematically dismantling my Faith (my own atomic bomb, perhaps) to be hugely frustrating and rewarding, but always enriching, and perhaps it might be a path back to Faith, or perhaps not.

 

[nbcrusader]

A process is meaningless if there is no proper starting point or frame of reference.

For Christians, there are three parts to salvation:

Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

The sanctification is the journey you reference.

 

[Irvine511]

A process is meaningless if there is no proper starting point or frame of reference.

For Christians, there are three parts to salvation:

Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

The sanctification is the journey you reference.

sounds like the end has been predetermined by the start. doesn't sound like a legitimate process to me, more like a structure designed to reinforce a particular belief system. "glorification"? and as i mentioned earlier, salvation is beside the point, its how the process manifests itself in how life is lived that ultimately matters.

also, by using the term "for Christians," you've already created a false-choice structure that will inevitably lead you to a predetermined conclusion.

 

[pax]

A pastor once told me, "Go ahead and yell at God. He's big enough to handle it."

And I think that's a necessity for genuine faith. It's not living in the shallow end of a repetitive religion, but being honest enough to show your REAL self to God, and waiting for Him to show His REAL self to you.

I like this too.

Obviously the end of that anger, that conflict can--and should--be greater praise of God and a better relationship with God. But I'm drawn to what Irvine mentioned--the journey, the process. I think that is just as important as where you "end up," so to speak.

 

[babyman]

god hasn't any blame for nothing, if many would read the bible, STUDY the bible, they would have all their question answered, many don't know nothing about god but are ready to go down on him, HIS reign will come, the right day not now yet, and he will make everything clear, all the ones who died will be rewaked, this is what jesus did when he came on the earth and died for us, isn't that not a loving god enough? someone who sent his own son to redeem us, this is no fiction, this is the truth. the fact is that many don't have christian knowledge, it is better to do other things as to sit down and study the bible and try to get all the confusion clear, everytime when something bad happens it is god who wanted it, we must believe in him, we must trust his word, otherwise that's the way how we live, in sadness, despair, mistrust. it isn't right to say, if there's a loving god why doesn't he avoid all the catastrophes? no, there's a god, and his name is YAHWEH, and HE will LEAD us to salvation, he will take each hand of us if we just give our trust to him, and most of all, if we serve his word

 

[Irvine511]

god hasn't any blame for nothing, if many would read the bible, STUDY the bible, they would have all their question answered, many don't know nothing about god but are ready to go down on him, HIS reign will come, the right day not now yet, and he will make everything clear, all the ones who died will be rewaked, this is what jesus did when he came on the earth and died for us, isn't that not a loving god enough? someone who sent his own son to redeem us, this is no fiction, this is the truth. the fact is that many don't have christian knowledge, it is better to do other things as to sit down and study the bible and try to get all the confusion clear, everytime when something bad happens it is god who wanted it, we must believe in him, we must trust his word, otherwise that's the way how we live, in sadness, despair, mistrust. it isn't right to say, if there's a loving god why doesn't he avoid all the catastrophes? no, there's a god, and his name is YAHWEH, and HE will LEAD us to salvation, he will take each hand of us if we just give our trust to him, and most of all, if we serve his word

dear, not everyone who believes in God believes in the Bible, let alone take it literally. there's more out there than your specific conception Christianity.

 

[babyman]

dear, not everyone who believes in God believes in the Bible, let alone take it literally. there's more out there than your specific conception Christianity.

my specific conception? no, i'm sorry, you aren't right.

isn't it a huge contradiction, not everyone who believes in god believes the bible? if you believe in god you believe the bible, because he wrote the bible, and we must act in our lives following what the bible teaches us, the bible is god's word, and it's one word, there can't be 1000 conceptions, there's only one, and it's god's conception, it's up to us to get inside, search god

 

[Irvine511]

 

[pax]

There is a language barrier going on here--let's keep that in mind.

I think what Irvine means, babyman, is that some people who believe in God (either the Judeo-Islamo-Christian God or else some other sort of monotheic deity, Great Spirit, what have you) are not necessarily Christian, and would therefore not regard the Bible as the best or only source of answers to these questions. Jews and Muslims believe in much the same God as Christians do, but obviously they do not find the Bible to be THE authoritative text. Same for agnostics, certain pagans, some followers of Native American religions, perhaps even Buddhists or Taoists (I could be wrong on that one)--they may believe in, or at least be open to believing in, one sovereign God, but not necessarily the same God of whom Christians speak.

Maybe that'll clear some things up.

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

I don't agree that this kind of event is inconsistent with the existence of a loving God, but I also don't agree that God is not to be questioned. Maybe I draw this more from a Jewish tradition than a Christian one, but I always liked a Jewish conception of conversation with God. The Jews I know are very comfortable with doubt, conflict, even anger as far as God goes, and they believe that "having it out" with God eventually makes their faith stronger and their relationship with God closer.

There are some great images of that kind of struggle in the OT--Jacob wrestling the angel is one of my (and Bono's, too, I think--LOL) favorite Bible stories ever. And the book of Job is almost one lengthy argument with God--carried on by Job, a righteous man who loses everything and finally wants to know why. And he does actually get some answers.

Is God "answerable" to us in the way that a child is to a parent? No, of course not. But I think that it's irresponsible of us to simply sit back and say, "Oh, whatever, it's God's will." It might well be God's will, but to not struggle with that, to not continue to ask questions of oneself and of God and of our fellow persons of faith, is a cop-out. Albert Einstein it was, I believe, who said that God would not have bestowed us with reason if God did not expect us to use it.

Just wanted to say I really appreciated this post pax!

 

[Dreadsox]

if you believe in god you believe the bible, because he wrote the bible,

BEEP BEEP BEEP>....WRONG ANSWER......Play again....


Not everyone believes God wrote the bible. Inspired, yes, wrote it, no.

 

[pax]

Just wanted to say I really appreciated this post pax!

Thanks for saying so.

 

[U2Vertigoing]

isn't it a huge contradiction, not everyone who believes in god believes the bible? if you believe in god you believe the bible, because he wrote the bible, and we must act in our lives following what the bible teaches us, the bible is god's word

uhm God wrote the bible......don't think so huh
the people wrote the bible, foolish people we are who says it's not an invented story??????
I believe it did happen many centuries ago but I'm sure God even didn't wrote 5% of the bible
I don't know if you know this but Jesus was a jew and he was born in March not in December...............just to take the facts clear

 

[Irvine511]

we've had God/bible/authorship/literal vs. allegorical discussions in other threads.

to me, so far, the most interesting thing that has come across at this point is the journey towards or away from faith, and how this disaster -- and others, be they massive like 9-11 or personal like the death of a close relative -- play into whatever spirtual path you see yourself on, or have walked away from.

at this point, i think the moral thing to do is to yell at God, to be angry with God, to demand the "why" when so many are suffering and, as we see in another thread, some are kidnapping orphans and selling them into the unspeakable SE Asian sex trade (funded by Western tourists). while there may be an answer, it's not likely we're going to get one from God (if there is a God) in this lifetime, but the *process* of dealing, of comprehending, of reconciling, is very important. to sit back and say, "it was God's will" or "it was just Karma" or "it was just the shifting of the Earth's plates" is to miss something very intrinsic to being human. when i was in college, a course i wanted to take, but didn't have time to, was called "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People: The Problem of Evil in Western Culture." why do bad things happen? why do innocents suffer? why do the poor always suffer more? to seek a monocausal explanation -- God, Nature, Karma, a mixture of all, or wacky conspiracy theories ... God being a possible conspiracy theory -- for a tragedy that has so many layers of pain and suffering (though with the end result, innocent people are dead) is to cop-out.

to the faithful, i'd say that God wants you to question him right now, he wants you to be angry with him, he wants you to question Him.

 

[nbcrusader]

BEEP BEEP BEEP>....WRONG ANSWER......Play again....


Not everyone believes God wrote the bible. Inspired, yes, wrote it, no.

Wrong?

Inspired essentially means the words are God's, not man's.

Welcome to FYM NotAnEasyThing

 

[VertigoGal]

Is it just me, or does this conversation have no purpose or outcome? I don't say that to stop the thread, it's interesting to read...but essentially no-one will change their mind. To someone who believes already in a sovereign, all-loving God, this disaster all makes perfect sense and can be explained by things within their religion. To someone who doesn't accept this God (necessarily), all the Bible quotes and hypothetical intentions of God in the world aren't going to mean much...

 

[U2Vertigoing]

we've had God/bible/authorship/literal vs. allegorical discussions in other threads.

to me, so far, the most interesting thing that has come across at this point is the journey towards or away from faith, and how this disaster -- and others, be they massive like 9-11 or personal like the death of a close relative -- play into whatever spirtual path you see yourself on, or have walked away from.

at this point, i think the moral thing to do is to yell at God, to be angry with God, to demand the "why" when so many are suffering and, as we see in another thread, some are kidnapping orphans and selling them into the unspeakable SE Asian sex trade (funded by Western tourists). while there may be an answer, it's not likely we're going to get one from God (if there is a God) in this lifetime, but the *process* of dealing, of comprehending, of reconciling, is very important. to sit back and say, "it was God's will" or "it was just Karma" or "it was just the shifting of the Earth's plates" is to miss something very intrinsic to being human. when i was in college, a course i wanted to take, but didn't have time to, was called "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People: The Problem of Evil in Western Culture." why do bad things happen? why do innocents suffer? why do the poor always suffer more? to seek a monocausal explanation -- God, Nature, Karma, a mixture of all, or wacky conspiracy theories ... God being a possible conspiracy theory -- for a tragedy that has so many layers of pain and suffering (though with the end result, innocent people are dead) is to cop-out.

to the faithful, i'd say that God wants you to question him right now, he wants you to be angry with him, he wants you to question Him.

9-11, sex market Asia, wars, nature disasters- Gods will??????????? just Karma??????? bullshit
9-11, sex market, wars......it is/was all because of us, we the people are doing bad things...........how hard is to realize that it can't be that hard huh........it was Gods will, whahahaha He has nothing to do with this
and also not with nature disasters, the earth moves for over 300 million year just look in the history books how the positions of the countries has changed nature is a strange something just like the gravity

we can argue about this for years without getting a answer but it's just waiting to the next disaster....it won't take long anymore uhm what did I said it has already started
look to Africa the famine there,wars etc. we were so stupid with getting richer and richer without caring about the Africans
yeah Live Aid....but this was waaaaay to late, we must wait until their going to be many dead people and then we take action....
what kind of world do we live in??? what kind of world is this??? one thing is for sure I'm not happy with being a part of this world
stupid foolish people which don't know what they're doing

they're also many good people but the majority doesn't care about something unless there are many victims

we can not tolerate this, we've fucked up many times we just can not fail again it's just not acceptable, what would your kids and grandkids say to you?
they would be ashamed that your didn't do anything

why would God take care for us?
the people must take care for each other....
we're one but we're not the same we get to carry each other carry each other that what's all about nothing more nothing less it can't be that hard....................

 

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by Irvine511

to the faithful, i'd say that God wants you to question him right now, he wants you to be angry with him, he wants you to question Him.

And to those who aren't even sure if they believe in God or not yet arrogantly think they know what this God wants for another, please stop.

 

[Irvine511]

Is it just me, or does this conversation have no purpose or outcome? I don't say that to stop the thread, it's interesting to read...but essentially no-one will change their mind. To someone who believes already in a sovereign, all-loving God, this disaster all makes perfect sense and can be explained by things within their religion. To someone who doesn't accept this God (necessarily), all the Bible quotes and hypothetical intentions of God in the world aren't going to mean much...

why discuss anything then?

do you not learn from those you disagree with?

the point of FYM is not to convert, nor to preach to the converted. it's to share ideas and challenge your own assumptions. the point, i think, is to always, always, always challenge dogma -- whether on the right or on the left, the secular or the religious. defend your thougths and your beliefs, and maybe strenghten them or weaken them.

you're right: no amount of scriptural referencing or parsing of words in the Bible is going to mean much to me; but that doesn't mean it doesn't explain volumes about how people different from me think.

the end result is that while i may continue to disagree with it, and find my reasons to disagree strengthened, i walk away with more respect for those with whom i have disagreements.

 

[Irvine511]

And to those who aren't even sure if they believe in God or not yet arrogantly think they know what this God wants for another, please stop.

yes, why discuss anything then?

how dare we presume to place ourselves in another's shoes and try on different systems of thought. how *arrogant*.

 

[joyfulgirl]

yes, why discuss anything then?


how dare we presume to place ourselves in another's shoes and try on different systems of thought.

I don't think that's really what you're doing. I just keep hearing that you're angry and so we should all be angry and any other response is somehow less valid. I've been discussing things on this forum for years; I enjoy discussions--I just don't see this one going anywhere at this point although there have been some beautiful posts throughout.

 

[Irvine511]

I don't think that's really what you're doing. I just keep hearing that you're angry and so we should all be angry and any other response is somehow less valid. I've been discussing things on this forum for years; I enjoy discussions--I just don't see this one going anywhere at this point although there have been some beautiful posts throughout.

then ask the moderator to shut it down.

you are right -- i do think anger is the moral response. but by all means, disagree with me. and please read my posts more closely.

 

[joyfulgirl]

then ask the moderator to shut it down.

you are right -- i do think anger is the moral response. but by all means, disagree with me. and please read my posts more closely.

Oh I don't think it should be closed down just because the discussion isn't going any where for me, I should have said--perhaps others are enjoying it. I do read your posts closely but it's true I don't have a lot of time these days, so perhaps I have missed some finer points. Anyway, carry on, everyone.

 

[U2Vertigoing]

To someone who believes already in a sovereign, all-loving God, this disaster all makes perfect sense and can be explained by things within their religion. To someone who doesn't accept this God (necessarily), all the Bible quotes and hypothetical intentions of God in the world aren't going to mean much...

but I want to know how you trust on God....why do people believe in Him???? that's what I want to know what's their fundamendation of their religy, any religy for what kind of reason do people believe in him.......

I'm not sure if I believe in God......
a loving God....that's again bullshit who says that God must do things to be friends with everybody??
for everyone who believes in the Bible here's a quote
'Gods weighs are inscrutable'

if I scared some people of then I offer my apologise, I just want to discuss about it but I'm angry at the people yes because how could they just let millions people die??????
that just won't fit into my brain