A great day for women in Egypt!

[Butterscotch]

Couldn't they just wait and see IF a girl becomes promiscuous first, before labeling and mutilating them all in advance?

[fly so high!]

Originally posted by deep
What ?

banning the right to practice religious beliefs is a great day?

Are you serious?

[fly so high!]

Originally posted by Butterscotch
Couldn't they just wait and see IF a girl becomes promiscuous first, before labeling and mutilating them all in advance?

OMG.....this thread is doing my head in......over and out.

[indra]

Originally posted by Butterscotch
Couldn't they just wait and see IF a girl becomes promiscuous first, before labeling and mutilating them all in advance?

By then it's too late and the damage has already been done.

In societies where "purity" of women is a (and possibly THE) major factor in whether or not they have an semblance of a decent life it is imperative there be no "if".

Does that make it right? No, but given the culture it does make sense. And understanding the rationale behind the practice is essential to have any chance of ending the practice.

[Butterscotch]

II'm really kind of surprised at how many of you seem to be almost justifying it. We've known basically all along their reasons for doing it, that doesn't change a thing about how barbaric, abusive, and unhealthy it is to a girl. It makes no difference, it still needs to be stopped, now.

[Vincent Vega]

No one justifies the procedure itself and everybody has made that very clear.
But there lies some reasoning behind these people carrying out the female circumcision and yolland, sula as well as other poster's tried to explain that.
And like indra said, you need to understand why the circumcision is done in order to teach these people why it's such a bad and cruel tradition they need to get rid of.

[Butterscotch]

I do understand it. I always have. It doesn't make any difference. It's still wrong.

[Vincent Vega]

That's too high for me.

[sue4u2]

*sigh*.. we all wish by just saying that "it's wrong".. would make it all go away. The key factor here Education..
It takes a long time to educate a culture or continent that has practiced a cultural procedure for so long.
Education is changing this mind set - slowly.. yes, but changing non the less.

[martha]

Originally posted by Butterscotch
II'm really kind of surprised at how many of you seem to be almost justifying it. We've known basically all along their reasons for doing it, that doesn't change a thing about how barbaric, abusive, and unhealthy it is to a girl. It makes no difference, it still needs to be stopped, now.

I have to agree with you here. I guess I expected more outrage, rather than all this "understanding about cultural norms." It is barbaric and it's mutilation done to children.

I do understand the need to educate, but we can wait for that to happen and have another generation of women mutilated in the meantime.

[indra]

Because just telling someone "You are a bunch of barbaric fucks" isn't likely to get them to listen to you, let alone think about doing what you want them to. Sure it makes you feel good to say that, but it doesn't do any good, and may even, by pissing people off, end up doing more harm and keeping the practice going strong for a longer time.

[martha]

Originally posted by indra
Because just telling someone "You are a bunch of barbaric fucks"

That's not what I'm advocating. Apartheid didn't change because people sat around "understanding" where the Afrikaaners were coming from. Voting rights legislation was passed without worrying too much about the hurt feelings of the Klan.


A law getting passed is a step. Encouragement to uphold the law, in whatever form, will go a long way. People sitting around being all "understanding" isn't doing shit to stop it.

[Vincent Vega]

Originally posted by martha


I have to agree with you here. I guess I expected more outrage, rather than all this "understanding about cultural norms." It is barbaric and it's mutilation done to children.

I do understand the need to educate, but we can wait for that to happen and have another generation of women mutilated in the meantime.

If there was any way to get this message across faster, don't you think people would go that way?

I mean, everyone wants to stop it yesterday rather than tomorrow. But how will you get the circumcision stopped? Simply telling them that you find this a crude, barbaric and plain wrong procedure wouldn't make anyone of them stopping it.
These women have gone through the procedure themselves, yet doing it to their daughters, granddaughters, nieces, whatever, because through the generations they've been taught that this is a necessary endurement for the child.
To teach these people that it is not necessary takes time, like it or not.
It's like child work. We would love to stop it by today, but this isn't realistically possible.

[martha]

Originally posted by Vincent Vega
It's like child work. We would love to stop it by today, but this isn't realistically possible.

No shit. Where did I say that?

What I'm saying is this: I'm disappointed by all the resigned understanding of this here in FYM.

[Vincent Vega]

This was just as a comparison.

I don't think people here have a resigned understanding. Reference was made to the project oceane promoted. And everyone hopes that female circumcision will vanish over the next years, I'm sure of that.

It was just explained what leads to this procedure being caried out, and it was mentioned that only if people understand they can go there and educate these people that it is needed to be stopped.
If you don't know anything about female circumcision, just see that it's cruel, you would go their, tell them not to do it, and nothing would happen. But if you know the background you have a way to show them that you do care about their situation, and when they respect you you can educate them about circumcision not being justified by the Koran, and get them to get rid of that tradition.

And people are actually doing it, with, as oceane said, quite some success.

[sulawesigirl4]

Well I apologize if anyone thinks that the mere thought of what goes on to women in countries where FGM is practiced doesn't make me absolutely sick to my stomach. I've been there. I know women who are circumcised. I've seen women in the hospital suffering from the medical side-effects that can occur from some of the more extreme forms of this practice after bearing children. So believe me when I say, I'm not looking at this issue dispassionately or from my safe armchair. If I had the power to make it stop, I would do so in a hearbeat. But I've also seen enough to realize that short of arresting mass swathes of grandmothers in little villages all over Africa, there is no way on earth that this practice is going to go away overnight.

I am encouraged by the developments that have been happening in Senegal (see yolland's link on a previous page) but it sorta proves what we already know. The only way this kind of practice will stop is when those people involved understand the ramifications, the lack of support which they believe is actually mandatory in their religious texts, and most importantly when women stand up and start to refuse to do this to each other. Because at the end of the day, it will have to come from the women themselves.

I really think that anyone who wants to know more about the real life people behind issues like this really ought to check out the amazing film "Moolaade" by Ousmane Sembene.

[martha]

Originally posted by Vincent Vega
It was just explained what leads to this procedure being caried out, and it was mentioned that only if people understand they can go there and educate these people that it is needed to be stopped.
If you don't know anything about female circumcision, just see that it's cruel, you would go their, tell them not to do it, and nothing would happen.

Now you're patronizing me.

[Vincent Vega]

The "you" wasn't you as you in second person singular.

If people, who want to do something about it, just look at the cruelty, but don't look at, care, learn about, whatever, the background and so on, they won't possibly get through to the women and educating them about the missing religious backing and showing them that FGM is not necessary.

I didn't intend in any way to say that you yourself don't know about it.

[A_Wanderer]

Perhaps abroad but what about within a liberal nation? Can the force of law be brought to bear then

NORWAY took steps on yesterday to crack down on circumcision of girls by barring families from travelling abroad if officials suspect they plan to have the procedure done outside the country.

The intervention followed reports in Norwegian media that at least 185 girls from Norway - daughters of immigrants - had their genitals cut in just one village in Somalia.

The Government said it would refuse passports to families suspected of sending girls abroad to have the procedure carried out.

Authorities can also forbid a family from travelling if they suspect the purpose is female circumcision, officials said.

“Today's decision is about how to prevent children from being subject to genital mutilation,” Astri Aas-Hansen, a senior official at the Ministry of Justice and Police, told Reuters.

“This is violence,” she said.

Justice Minister Knut Storgberget told Norwegian NTB newswire that officials would not block people from travelling based only on their skin colour or destination.

“The authorities must have concrete suspicions that circumcision is planned to be able to deny a passport,” he said.

Genital cutting, sometimes referred to as female genital mutilation or circumcision, is banned in Norway and arouses widespread horror in the West but is a rite of passage for young women in many countries, predominantly in Africa.

It also occurs in some Middle Eastern countries, such as Saudi Arabia, in some immigrant communities in Europe and North America and in parts of Asia, including Indonesia.

The practice usually involves removing part or all of the clitoris and other parts of the female genitalia.

Many of the practitioners are untrained and use crude instruments, making the practice life-threatening.

The Norwegian Government is also considering mandatory check-ups for girls to weed out the practice.

In the last three years, Oslo's university hospital has treated 260 children and women for health problems tied to genital mutilation, some as young as 10 or 11 years old.

link

[Butterscotch]

Originally posted by martha


I have to agree with you here. I guess I expected more outrage, rather than all this "understanding about cultural norms." It is barbaric and it's mutilation done to children.

I do understand the need to educate, but we can wait for that to happen and have another generation of women mutilated in the meantime.

Thank you Martha. I expected more outrage too. There's no excuse to allow this to continue, or to condone it with any kind of 'understanding', especially when it all amounts to abuse of and discrimination against women and girls.

You're right, if you wait to 'educate' it out of them, it will take generations, possibly never. Someone has to say ENOUGH and stop it now and ask questions later.