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Old 11-12-2004, 07:06 AM   #41
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this thread is veering in several directions.

its great that everyone has been respectful in issuing responses which they found were neccessary to address but we should attempt to adhere to the original topic: an arguably humorous jab at U.S. foreign policy and by extension, the effects of the U.S. presidential election on other nations.
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Old 11-12-2004, 07:07 AM   #42
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


now on to the serious matters...

...yet once again someone compares the bush administration to hitler and the nazis, and no one says peep about it. THAT pisses me off to no end. i've complained about it before, yet no one seems to want to do anything about it. that's bullshit to the highest extreme.

also, i'm a little tired of the 9/11 - aids in africa comparisons. are they related? yes... of course. aids is pilaging the african continent... it's causing a generation without parents... it's causing a generation of desperation and poverty, two things that religious radicles breed off of. it NEEDS to be handled and dealt with. but while they are related, they are not the same thing and people really need to stop comparing them. lack of education led to reckless behavior (i.e. lack of protection, the truck drivers, etc. etc.) which led to the aids epidemic in africa. tragic and horriable, yes... but it's not the same thing as 3000 people simply showing up to work and being burned by 1000 degree jet fuel and crushed amongst thousands of tons of steal and concrete to the point where their bodies all but disinegrated. they are BOTH horrific tragidies, but let's please stop comparing the two like one is more important than the other. they're BOTH important and they BOTH need to be dealt with. it's not a competition between who's tragedy is worse.

and lastly... those who feel islamic terrorism is a minor issue, you are either A) living under a rock, or B) so consumed with hatred for america that you're ignoring the facts that are plain to see...

as you can see, this whole terrorism thing is clearly just a new, made up phenomenon.
OK I am going to end my posting here. It is pointless to continue and be attacked this way. If you read this thread through I don't think I made my argument in the way portrayed here and didn't resort to name calling of any politital party followers.

I am certainly not "consumed with hatred for America" neither am I "living under a rock". I do have the benefit of being widely travelled. I love America but am getting seriously concerned about

1) Gov't right to detain anyone for an indefinite period without charge
2) Planned introduction of passports that contain main personal details implanted in a chip that can be read from 50 yds away without the owner even knowing
3) Fingerprinting and photographing of foreigners on arrival
4) The military guy on Fox news yesterday who said something like "Well hell if you are hiding out in a mosque in Fallujah we're gonna shoot at ya cos some of your buddies have been shootin at us." The war was supposed to be about regime change and dismantling weapons of mass destruction. Regime is changes. No weapons of mass destruction. Now it's about empire building
5) Above all the we are right and you are wrong / with us or against us attitude that has permeated US foreign policy
6) Claiming to fight for freedom when citizens in the US are increasingly restricted. FCC & Bono case (now Saving Private Ryan), protest against the gov't and you can expect a visit from a friendly FBI suit.


Point number 5) just keeps coming up. Anyone who criticised the US government gets branded by a lot of visitors to this forum as either/or all of Anti-American, limp-wristed European, Terrorist, Moslem Radical ...

Now I'll shut up and find somewhere more level-headed to air my views. I didn't want to provoke a fight - only thought. A lot of this extremist sentiment that is being voiced from US is starting to sicken me. IF YOU ARE TRULY FREE THEN WHAT IS WRONG WITH SOMEONE CHALLENGING YOUR GOVERNMENT.

Ciao.
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Old 11-12-2004, 07:18 AM   #43
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Originally posted by paulrg
Point number 5) just keeps coming up. Anyone who criticised the US government gets branded by a lot of visitors to this forum as either/or all of Anti-American, limp-wristed European, Terrorist, Moslem Radical ...
Boo Hoo.

We've seen more than enough "if you support Bush, you are a simpleton, redneck, Jesus loving freak, warmongering bigot" posts and threads.

Let's stick to issues and skip the victim mentality.
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Old 11-12-2004, 07:56 AM   #44
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Originally posted by Danospano
It's just an opinion. That's all the British are doing, and you apparently can't stand other people having different opinions, and therefore...you sound like...(are you ready for this?)...an unpatriotic individual. How's that? Hmmm...?
People are free to voice whatever opinions they choose. However, I was stating that a lot of the opinions from the left are that 53% of Americans are mentally handicapped because they did not vote for Kerry. I would just like to see them respect those voters decisions as I would expect the same from the right if Kerry won.

[/B][/QUOTE]
...and making you second-guess your cock-sure attitude about world diplomacy and the U.S.'s role in it? Could you be terribly afraid that you're wrong? [/B][/QUOTE]

Here we go again. Anybody who voted for Bush is wrong (ie-Stupid)

[/B][/QUOTE]
Well, my opinion (this is the part when Kerry supporters continue to read, while Bush supporters hit the REPLY option and rail against me) is that Bush is a moron; plain and simple. Now, as a leader, I'm sure he makes average thinkers feel more comfortable with the state of the union...sad indeed. I on the other hand don't claim to be a great mind, nor do I profess that Kerry had all the answers. But I do firmly believe that in a nuclear age, a terrorist age, a chaotic age, that an erudite, war veteran, and experienced diplomat is a better choice for OUR LEADER than a bumbling New Englander with a phony Texas dialect. [/B][/QUOTE]

And I am sure you voted accordingly. Good for you. But guess what...Kerry (and several other democrats) LOST! Now get over it. This is the direction that the majority of the American people want the country to go, as they did when they voted in Regan, much to the dismay of several world leaders and democrats. And things didn't go too badly with him, did they?

I have not heard one democrat (except Kerry's concession speach) talk about how they're going to bring this country back together again. Instead, they're digging trenches getting ready to fight.

[/B][/QUOTE]
(Talk about a deceptive liar...what IS with Bush's dialect? I mean, nobody else in his family talks like that...not one single person. Gosh that bothers me) [/B][/QUOTE]

And the Kerry drawl was better? Puuuulease!
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Old 11-12-2004, 08:02 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by paulrg

1) Gov't right to detain anyone for an indefinite period without charge
2) Planned introduction of passports that contain main personal details implanted in a chip that can be read from 50 yds away without the owner even knowing
3) Fingerprinting and photographing of foreigners on arrival
4) The military guy on Fox news yesterday who said something like "Well hell if you are hiding out in a mosque in Fallujah we're gonna shoot at ya cos some of your buddies have been shootin at us." The war was supposed to be about regime change and dismantling weapons of mass destruction. Regime is changes. No weapons of mass destruction. Now it's about empire building
5) Above all the we are right and you are wrong / with us or against us attitude that has permeated US foreign policy
6) Claiming to fight for freedom when citizens in the US are increasingly restricted. FCC & Bono case (now Saving Private Ryan), protest against the gov't and you can expect a visit from a friendly FBI suit.
1) simply not true... the government can not pick me up and detain me for no reason. the specific law in the patriot act states that detainees suspected of being associated with terrorism can be held. yes... that needs to be tinkered a bit, and i'm sure there are a few people held in guantanamo who are 100% innocent... just like i'm sure there are a few people who have been convicted by a jury of their peers and are rotting away in prison who are 100% innocent. it's not a perfect system by any stretch, but to suggest that people are just picked from the streets and thrown into guantanamo for no reason is simply untrue.

2)sorry, but i haven't heard anything about this. would seem strange to me, considering passports are issued by your own country, so what exactly would be the point? an american's passport is issued by america... a german's passport is issued by germany. why would we do this? to track americans in other countries? makes no sense, and i'd need to see some sort of article on this before i comment any further.

3) frankly, i don't have a problem with this either. i was fingerprinted and photographed for my job. is that a violation of my rights? no... i'm working in a school, and it's simply a background check to assure that the wrong element is not working around kids. as long as i have nothing to hide, then i could care less. if other governments want to fingerprint and photograph me when i travel there, i would be happy to oblige, 'cause i've got nothing to hide.

4) I didn't see one guy make this comment... I did see someone on Fox say that if gunfire is comming out of a mosque, they no longer consider it to be a religious place and now see it as a military target. frankly, i feel the same way. a religious building is sanctuary up until you start shooting from it.

5) Well what really do you expect? I could say that France and Germany feel the same way. They feel that they are right, and we are wrong. And obviously if you aren't with us, you're either neutral and not taking sides, or you're against us. That pretty much states it's self. it doesn't mean you are against us militarily, it means you disagree with us... you are against what we're doing. Just because the US says something doesn't make it so, and just because France, Germany and the UN say something, that, too, doesn't make it so. Why am I to believe France or Germany or Kofi Annan, when it is proven FACT that France, Germany and the UN were involved in a huge scandle with Saddam, and that if Saddam was removed from power, those parties would stand to lose billions of dollars, money which was supposed to be going to feed Iraqi citizens in the first place. What makes them the moral authority on this issue? They've got their hand in the cookie jar, too. It's strange that of all the countries that sided with us durring the first Gulf War, they're all back with us again this time, except for the countries that were involved in Oil for Food. Ironic, ain't it?

6) Shit, Piss, Fuck, Cunt, Cocksucker, Motherfucker and Tits.






waiting...





waiting...




waiting...



Nope... no stormtroopers at my door to arrest me. I haven't been thrown in jail. I can say whatever I feel.

The government stinks!




waiting...




waiting...




waiting...



Nope... no FBI agents here to arrest me.

You can curse your brains out... just don't do it on primetime television. You can go down to blockbuster or best buy and pick up a copy of Saving Private Ryan... but a few stations felt that it might not be approrpriate to show people's heads being blown off and guts spewing out of their bodies on basic cable. Not eveyone, just a few. It was on where I live. You can protest till the cows come home... just don't break the law while you do it, or yes, you'll be arrested. You can speak out against the government and the President all you want... just don't threaten anyone's life, or yes... the FBI and secret service will come to check you out.

My rights are not restricted anymore today than they were pre 9/11... and I live in the shadow of the biggest target.



there is nothing wrong with someone challenging my government. but freedom of speach is not a one way street, buddy. i have the right to speak out against my government, and i have the right to AGREE with my government. and if you speak out against my government, i have the right to disagree with you and voice my own opinion. that is not violating anyone's rights. that is a discussion.

i hope you don't feel any of this was a personal attack. and please, feel more than welcome to stick around and voice your opinions, whatever they may be. but don't be offended if someone disagrees.


oh... and mods, i appoloize for using Carlin's 7 dirty words... wasn't trying to offend, just trying to prove a point.
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Old 11-12-2004, 08:24 AM   #46
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase

Why am I to believe France or Germany or Kofi Annan, when it is proven FACT that France, Germany and the UN were involved in a huge scandle with Saddam, and that if Saddam was removed from power, those parties would stand to lose billions of dollars, money which was supposed to be going to feed Iraqi citizens in the first place. What makes them the moral authority on this issue? They've got their hand in the cookie jar, too.
I find it very interesting that the left has been so quiet about this issue. So many people stated that the motivation for Bush to go to war with Iraq was because of oil but you very rarely hear what other countries'motivations were for NOT wanting us to go to war. These guys (France, China, Russia, Annan) need to get off the moral high horse because their hands seem to have a little dirt on them as well. They all talk about the horrors of Bush is doing to the Iraqi people but you know what? They frickin' stole food out of Iraqi's children's mouthes! That's low.

I also find it interesting that there was no mention of the Oil for Food Heist in the Moore documentary. Hmmmm...biased! No way. You wanna talk conspiracy, let's talk about the greatest heist of all time.
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Old 11-12-2004, 02:04 PM   #47
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Originally posted by wolfwill23
There seem
Oh, by the way, apologizing to Europe?! Puuulease! How about them apologizing for their blatent involvement in the largest heist in world history (Oil for Food Heist), and all that at the expense of innocent Iraqi people.
Who do you think "Europe" is?

The USA is one country with one government.

Europe is a continent with how many dozen countries, how many dozen languages spoken, how many dozen cultures, how many religions practiced? So you know what, no, you cannot blame "Europe" for the "blatant involvement in the largest heist" because the vast majority of European nations had nothing whatsoever to do with it at all - they neither participated nor benefitted.

Please be more specific, because I'd love to know what some peasant in Kosovo or Malta is responsible for when it comes to Food for Oil.
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Old 11-13-2004, 12:00 AM   #48
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Anitram is 100% correct.

Let's not throw the babies out with the Freedom Fries!

It's not Europe, it's the corrupt, guilty-as-hell gov't of France.

If only France and many other ungrateful countries would pay America what it owes US -- multiple millions since WWII -- America would have no national debt!
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Old 11-13-2004, 01:02 PM   #49
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more reasons ?





terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi

and a lieutenant, Abdullah Junabi, both escape
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Old 11-15-2004, 01:05 AM   #50
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Sad-damn Hinsane didn't! The two evil monkeys U stated will be got. Not to worry that America is losing its touch; we're not! Outta curiosity, what country are U from -- or just down deep?


P.S. Ahnold for President!
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Old 11-15-2004, 05:18 PM   #51
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Originally posted by ImOuttaControl
59 million reasons America is still great:

The American people told Europe to shove it and re-elected President Bush.
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Old 11-15-2004, 05:47 PM   #52
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You've all got such naive, simplified views. That goes to both sides of the argument.
The truth is grey, not black or white.
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Old 11-15-2004, 08:44 PM   #53
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You've all got such naive, simplified views. That goes to both sides of the argument.
The truth is grey, not black or white.
I don't consider my views simplified. I know they're complicated, and I try to present them for other people in a way they can understand them. Am I doing too good of a job?

To explain why I hold complicated views, let me set some examples on some issues my party supports that I question or disagree with...

#1: Gun Issues.

I know there's been cases where gun ownership has saved lives, but there's been plenty of cases where children, friends, and family members have been shot or killed by misuse of it. I do question the 2nd Amendment's relevance in modern times. Our population has grown enormously over the past 50 years, therefore we have more criminals living in the US than ever before. I have a gut feeling that we should start banning firearms in highly populated areas, particularly urban ones because they have a higher crime rate. I think we would see an enormous drop in the crime rate.

#2: Capital Punishment.

Unless we can prove for a fact that we have the right killer, and he had a prior criminal record, there is no basis for the death penalty. However, I still believe that if we can prove beyond any reasonable doubt, that this killer did an unusually cruel act, then yes, he (or she) deserves a punishment that fits the crime. I get tired of hard rightwingers in my own party that say that murderers deserve very painful punishments. In my eyes, it's society that deserves justice, and if we must kill the killer, we should continue to make it as painless as possible.

#3: Allowing Torture To War Criminals.

I don't even think I need to explain why this is flat out wrong.

#4: Affirmative Action.

From having a mild hearing disability, I will credit the left on this: you have advanced the workforce in order for my uncontrollable hearing impairment not to be discriminated against. I still question why make race such an issue though. Shouldn't we allow minorities to feel that they're as valued in our society as us whites? Feel free to disagree.

#5: Negative Advertising.

I understand that politics can get nasty, but I had respect for John McCain to draw the line when my party was considering running a very demeaning ad campaign against Kerry. I feel that both parties need to make an effort to work together on more non-partisan issues to make the world a better place.

There you have the left/moderate side of my brain. I hope you think I'm greyer than an old man.
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Old 11-15-2004, 11:59 PM   #54
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Deep Doo-Doo

Quote:
Originally posted by deep
more reasons ? Terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
and a lieutenant, Abdullah Junabi, both escape
It's queer, unfair and unbalanced that U would pick 2 of the 3 that we know escaped for the moment yet fail to mention the tens of thousands who have been killed and jailed!

Moreover, the topic of this file is 59 (updated to 60) million reasons that America is still great! U are totally off topic, as U well know via your diversion.
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Old 11-16-2004, 11:18 PM   #55
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Y'know before joining in the dialogues here at interference my assumption was that most U2 fans are liberal. Obviously U2 fans are far more diverse. And, that's not such a bad thing.

as of 3:04 am EST Nov 17, 2004 there are 294,773,654 reasons America is great. All of these people (red, yellow, black and white) are precious. Even if 53 percent of the voters on Nov 2 voted for the wrong guy (in my opinion) that doesn't take away their worth. I certainly am guilty of this, but can we please make stronger arguments than europe sucks ass, and all republicans are idiots. Let us tone down the heat.
Here are some questions I'm interested in: 1) if Bush is such an idiot, how has he managed to beat us three times (if you don't want to count the 2000 election fine, but he still beat democrates in texas for the governorship and just recently)? 2) why shouldn't europe care about our elections? (globalization)? 3) why is it okay for the US to bomb places where it is known that little children will die, but abortion is wrong? 4) why is it wrong that the US bomb children and not wrong to have an abortion? 5) what the hell is up with that girl and the gun? is that supposed to make me feel safe?
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Old 11-16-2004, 11:32 PM   #56
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Bono is politically pragmatic!

Bono is more diverse politically than most people realize, too!
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Old 11-17-2004, 12:22 AM   #57
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He certainly has claimed to be bipartisan which is so unhip for rock stars, especially rock stars with causes; however, this is what makes our man, the man. AIDS, the quality of human life, love and (ooh insert cheesy line) all that can't be left behind, are far greater than party lines and politics.
We know the Edge and larry are not comfortable with some of the people bono has met, but the cause is too great. Some have suggested that Crumbs is Bono frustrated at America's religiousness; I think Crumbs is Bono pleading with them, not slapping them. the woman who asked jesus for "crumbs" was not negative to jesus, she was desperate. ok, i'm off topic here.
I guess what I am saying is maybe we ought to look to our favorite singer as far as politics are concerned. There is left and right, and then there is the higher ground.
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