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Old 11-12-2004, 02:12 AM   #21
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Perhaps people have decided to go back to sleep, September 11, Bali and Madrid were abberations, the threat is overstated by our own governments and every policy decision is intended to consolidate their power using ficticious enemies, be it Nazism, Communism or "Islamism".

Maybe the cries of driving the Jews into the sea and getting young people to kill themselves just to murder innocent people has gotten to me. Perhaps the talk of Bin Laden and his idological ilk about avenging the crusades and taking the violence to the west for years sunk through into my brain when they started getting serious and blowing up Australians partying in Bali, a place of no apparent significance to the terrorists and an attack on "white meat" that had nothing to do with any of their "grievances".

Maybe you are right, these groups are not a threat, if they were supressed so very well by thuggish dictatorships in the Arab world how could they ever even aspire to take their war to the next level. Is it so inconcievable that with weapons of tremendous destructive power substantial damage could be visited upon mankind.

I am not talking about a clash of civilizations I am talking about a group which is a vast minority within a religion. Those who operate as true nternational terrorists are a minority within that minority. So you have a few thousand individuals intent on causing damage with significant funds at their disposal and the ideological motivation behind it. You cannot bomb these individuals out of existence, effective counter-terrorism measures must be enacted that do not infringe on the individual rights of citizens and there must always be proper oversight.

The fact is that some countries (notably Pakistan) have weapons which could kill millions of people and are in such a delicate political situation with regards to these fringe groups. If such a group, with enough money and just a few members was to obtain these weapons they would not hesitate to use them, this would be very bad for everybody.

There should be an open and measured discussion of these problems that lays them out on the table so that they can be dealt with without the fear mongering and politiking. I think that the actual threat is not explained properly in the media and the entire "terror alert level" is a load of rubbish, one can gather more from listening to what is said and what is known than any sensationalist rubbish. So I would like to see faster trials for those in Gitmo, the utter farce of the beurocrats trying to nail an effective legal system hardly inspires faith in their ability to counter an elusive enemy. I would like to see stronger alliances formed with countries throughout Asia. This polarity between people literally seems to be one of world view, one where the threat from terrorism is understated and one where it is overstated. I would much rather move against an opponent with too much than too little so I guess that I fall into that camp.

Check it; http://internet-haganah.com/jihadi/salafy.html, http://memri.org/
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Old 11-12-2004, 03:14 AM   #22
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The election is over- Democrats/anti-Bush supporters need to deal with it.

The Democrats should blame the liberal media for basically trying to press that John Kerry was the favored before the election. Election day proved dead wrong.

The Democrats need to work on they're image and stop blaming and making excuses- the majority of America saw through this. If not, the blue sections of the USA will get even more smaller.

All the anti-republicans need to realize that it is the Democratic party that depends and banks on the vote of the poor/lower classes. Only a Democrat would say that Republicans utilize the uneducated/ignorant vote.

The Democratic party has turned into one big Special Interest group.

If you are a Democrat and are upset by these statements- know that you can't post negative party comments and expect not to hear from the other side.
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Old 11-12-2004, 05:45 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
This Girl Ain't Sorry.



And she got a blog
http://www.risawn.com/blogger.html
You seem to have a fixation with guns and killing people. What are u trying to tell us with this picture? U trying to make some sort of statement?
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Old 11-12-2004, 05:47 AM   #24
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
These guy and girls are better

http://www.werenotsorry.com/
Well, I go and have a look at the first page and the first thing I see is G-U-N-S. Am I surprised? Of course not!
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Old 11-12-2004, 05:55 AM   #25
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I'm not playing blame games or whatever. I'm simply staying true to myself, my values, and my dreams. Election Day didn't change me from a liberal to a conservative. By doing things like joining Howard Dean's grassroots political group, and I think it's just amazing that it even exists in a small, conservative place like Birmingham, I'm just doing what I believe in. At the end of the day, that's what you've got to do. It's better to express your feelings. I really think it's a mistake to bottle up your emotions. After all, it's terrorists and other scum who never learned to express their emotions constructively, so they turned destructive.
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Old 11-12-2004, 06:14 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by wolfwill23
There seems to be a common belief among democrats that the people who voted for Bush are unintelligent, inferior to them, and downright wrong for voting the way they did. The people who voted for Bush were not wrong, they voted for who they believed in. Just like the people who voted for Kerry were not wrong either, they voted for who they believed in. The numbers do not lie. This country, as a whole, thinks that Bush is the man to lead us in a post 9-11 world. Guess what? That means that the US does not think like Europe or Canada. We have our own beliefs and values that are different than other countries’ beliefs and values. This is the country we live in.

Why can’t the democrats just move on (pardon the pun) and focus their energies on something more useful? (Like uniting the country!)

Oh, by the way, apologizing to Europe?! Puuulease! How about them apologizing for their blatent involvement in the largest heist in world history (Oil for Food Heist), and all that at the expense of innocent Iraqi people.
When u refer to Europe apologising for 'their' blatant involvement try and be a bit more specific please. I'm sure you're well aware that Europe is actually a continent of many different countries.

And spare us the bleating about 'innocent Iraqis'. Let's be honest, before they got into the mess they are in now, very few people gave a damn about the plight of the Iraq people, least of all any of us in the West. There's no point pretending that we all had their concerns at heart while the Oil for Food thing was happening.
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Old 11-12-2004, 06:20 AM   #27
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Check the news. There were plenty of efforts by Europeans to signal which candidate they thought best. Perhaps they should have their heads examined....
If it was a case of Europeans (here we go again) trying to interfere in the domestic issues of your country u would have a point. But the result of this election was always going to have major implications for the rest of the world. Therefore, too damn right the rest of us outside the US were going to have an opinion about who we wanted to get elected. Why would anyone in the US have a problem with this?
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Old 11-12-2004, 06:36 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Check the news. There were plenty of efforts by Europeans to signal which candidate they thought best. Perhaps they should have their heads examined....
why? the results of the election are quite liable to effect them.

its not as if american foreign policy does not affect other nations, their leadership and political direction-while these may be more subtle actions, they are arguably more effective.

-

canadian's endlessly hear veiled trade-related threats from the american ambassador and drug czar everytime proposed marijauna liberalization is discussed.

canadians suffer from american gun laws and-well no our politicians make no noise about it and i can only guess this is because of fear of american repurcussions.

it goes in all directions and is a natural reaction.

and what it really speaks to is that none of us are on an island. it is a globe encompassing created identitities that must now coexist.
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Old 11-12-2004, 07:06 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by kobayashi

and what it really speaks to is that none of us are on an island. it is a globe encompassing created identitities that must now coexist.
Yes, this motivated millions of *Americans* during the election campaign. Isolation is not really possible in this day and age. It used to be possible, but it just is not anymore.
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Old 11-12-2004, 07:11 AM   #30
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That picture was lame. I'm sorry, but it was, though she's a cute girl. However I can't agree with the bottom quote.

Quote:
Radical Islam does not pose one quarter of the threat that western media portray. Sure it sells newspapers and gets governments re-elected but a few thousand Qutabist offshoots of real Islam are nothing much more than a bunch of Wacos (Tx). They have been undermined in Egpyt and Syria by the hard action by their own governments and no quarter should be granted them elsewhere. But don't lets have this lead to a world war.
When 3000 people are killed in one day while crippling our airline industry and destroying huge "monuments" such as the World Trade Center as well as shellacking the economy... I can't see it as an overrated threat.
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Old 11-12-2004, 07:18 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by bullet1973


Oh for Christ sake.........Europeans were not trying to tell u how to run your country!!! Were u really that paranoid and insecure before the election?

LOL sure they weren't....


Quote:
Targeted Ohio county goes to Bush

Washington, DC, Nov. 4 (UPI) -- The Ohio county subjected to an anti-Bush letter writing campaign by The Guardian, a British newspaper, went for George Bush in Tuesday's election.

In October, the Manchester (U.K) Guardian newspaper posted the addresses of registered voters in Clark County, Ohio -- an old Republican county that went narrowly for Gore in the 2000 election -- on its Web site, urging readers to write letters lobbying county residents to vote against Bush.

Democrat John Kerry campaigned hard to win the county, making several trips to Springfield, Ohio, in pursuit of votes -- but came up short.

Turnout in Clark County, according to unofficial data from the office of Ohio Secretary of State Ken Blackwell, was almost twice what is was in the 2000 election when Gore defeated Bush by 324 votes out of 35,644 cast. Tuesday, Bush carried Clark County by 1,620 votes, winning almost as many votes -- 34,444 -- as were cast for both Bush and Gore four years before.
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Old 11-12-2004, 07:20 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flying FuManchu
That picture was lame. I'm sorry, but it was, though she's a cute girl. However I can't agree with the bottom quote.

Quote:
Radical Islam does not pose one quarter of the threat that western media portray. Sure it sells newspapers and gets governments re-elected but a few thousand Qutabist offshoots of real Islam are nothing much more than a bunch of Wacos (Tx). They have been undermined in Egpyt and Syria by the hard action by their own governments and no quarter should be granted them elsewhere. But don't lets have this lead to a world war.

When 3000 people are killed in one day while crippling our airline industry and destroying huge "monuments" such as the World Trade Center as well as shellacking the economy... I can't see it as an overrated threat.
I'm going to tread carefully here. Please take what I wrote in the context of the rest of my reply. Ultimately, in hard, human life terms, 3000 people (as f&^%% up as that was) in one day 3 years ago is not the same as 6,500 lives a day every single one of those days since. That is really what I was saying. And yes it is a horrible thought but the global media have probably given 10000x the coverage to the "War Against Terrorism" as they have to the African crises. And no they are not directly comparable. But we watching as this war on terror is being distorted to meet big governments own wishes.

And as far as actually preventing another 9/11 I pointed out that Bush does not see Bin Laden as as big a prioirty as controlling Iraq. Rather that as spending on Iraq passes the $140bn mark (or about $5,500 for every Iraqi man woman and child) Bin Laden is progressing rather well in his avowed aim to bankrupt the US which is being forced further and further into debt.
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Old 11-12-2004, 07:25 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by wolfwill23
Oh, by the way, apologizing to Europe?! Puuulease! How about them apologizing for their blatent involvement in the largest heist in world history (Oil for Food Heist), and all that at the expense of innocent Iraqi people.

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Old 11-12-2004, 07:30 AM   #34
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Controlling Iraq is an important issue NOW (even if you disagree with the war). Why do people place so much emphasis on Bush's quote of "not worrying about Osama." People have given reasons why Bin Laden may not be important at this stage in the "terror war" (just a figurehead at this point), strategically. Would Bush be wrong in referring to that information as the reason he doesn't worry about Bin Laden? How about Bush trying to downplay Bin Laden's importance in order to try to lessen the appeal of Bin Laden? People have said that if Osama is eventually killed, he would become a martyr in the eyes of many which is not what the US desires (posibbly). Again, its another reason why Bush may "not worry." No, people want to think that Bush literally doesn't care about Osama. LOL. That makes sense considering 911.

People are giving more leeway to what Arafat has done and said over the years then to GW, geez... talk about twisted.
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Old 11-12-2004, 07:31 AM   #35
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Originally posted by ImOuttaControl


Not the point. Pre-election I know many americans, including myself, who got incredibly tired of Europeans trying to tell us how to run our country. So in the spirit of that site.. I'm not sorry Bush got re-elected!
With all due respect, neighbour, If that's your opinion then you've still re-elected your leader based on outside opinion and not necessarily based on what's good for your own country (and possibly billions of people all over the world). Americans have democratically elected Bush, but I fail to see the logical consistency in wanting to marginalize outside opinions, only to vote based on them.

Look, bud, your vote helps to influence (if not determine) the future of millions of families and people...including, but not limited to those in your country. Don't you think there ought to be a little more focus on doing the "right" thing, whatever that is, and not just rejecting external criticism?
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Old 11-12-2004, 07:34 AM   #36
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Quote:
I'm going to tread carefully here. Please take what I wrote in the context of the rest of my reply. Ultimately, in hard, human life terms, 3000 people (as f&^%% up as that was) in one day 3 years ago is not the same as 6,500 lives a day every single one of those days since. That is really what I was saying. And yes it is a horrible thought but the global media have probably given 10000x the coverage to the "War Against Terrorism" as they have to the African crises. And no they are not directly comparable. But we watching as this war on terror is being distorted to meet big governments own wishes.
But you forget to address the other aspects of the attack on 911 that caused to United States at least overthrow one government. There have been terror attacks in New York and around the world (against the US) prior to this and the US didn't give a fig as they say. I think you've limited the scope of 911.

As for Africa... are you referring to the Sudan, the AIDS crisis, or a combination, of things such as the poverty that was already there?
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Old 11-12-2004, 07:44 AM   #37
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Originally posted by Flying FuManchu


But you forget to address the other aspects of the attack on 911 that caused to United States at least overthrow one government. There have been terror attacks in New York and around the world (against the US) prior to this and the US didn't give a fig as they say. I think you've limited the scope of 911.

As for Africa... are you referring to the Sudan, the AIDS crisis, or a combination, of things such as the poverty that was already there?
I'm saying that so far Bin Laden is winning the war on terror on the basis of a single catastrophic attack three years ago that has seen further thousand of lives detsroyed, billions of dollars added to the US debt mountain and polarisation of opinion throughout the world at a political and religious level. Thanks in large part to the response of the "leaders" of the free world.

The quality of everyone's life has deteriorated since and going back to my original post I find it very sad to watch freedom being reduced in the US and the EU. As a non-fanatical, non religious, non extremist, boring white boy I have less freedom than 3 years ago and new laws are being passed every day.

I feel that people need to take a step back and put all of this into context. Consider the motivations of the key players.

In Africa's case I'm referring only to estimates regularly quoted of lives lost to preventable, treatable disease throughout the continent.
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Old 11-12-2004, 07:53 AM   #38
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first to the trivial matters...

to the person who called bush a "new englander with a phony texas accent." check your facts... yes, W was born in a hospital in new haven, CT... but he grew up and spent the majority of his life split between midland and houston texas.

now on to the serious matters...

i am absolutely disgusted that someone mentions that the nazi's would clone people in a thread on stem cells and everyone goes nuts, including the head interference honcho himself. yet once again someone compares the bush administration to hitler and the nazis, and no one says peep about it. THAT pisses me off to no end. i've complained about it before, yet no one seems to want to do anything about it. that's bullshit to the highest extreme.

also, i'm a little tired of the 9/11 - aids in africa comparisons. are they related? yes... of course. aids is pilaging the african continent... it's causing a generation without parents... it's causing a generation of desperation and poverty, two things that religious radicles breed off of. it NEEDS to be handled and dealt with. but while they are related, they are not the same thing and people really need to stop comparing them. lack of education led to reckless behavior (i.e. lack of protection, the truck drivers, etc. etc.) which led to the aids epidemic in africa. tragic and horriable, yes... but it's not the same thing as 3000 people simply showing up to work and being burned by 1000 degree jet fuel and crushed amongst thousands of tons of steal and concrete to the point where their bodies all but disinegrated. they are BOTH horrific tragidies, but let's please stop comparing the two like one is more important than the other. they're BOTH important and they BOTH need to be dealt with. it's not a competition between who's tragedy is worse.

and lastly... those who feel islamic terrorism is a minor issue, you are either A) living under a rock, or B) so consumed with hatred for america that you're ignoring the facts that are plain to see...

Quote:
1968
June 5 - U.S. presidential candidate Robert Kennedy murdered by Palestinian Sirhan Sirhan, in Los Angeles, which causes further terrorist attacks, as Arab terrorist groups demanded his release.

1969
Feb. 18 - Boeing 707 attacked at Zurich, Switzerland, killing the pilot and 3 passengers.
Aug. 29 - TWA 707 hijacked from Rome to Damascus, released with only wounded.
Nov. 27- El Al office in Athens, Greece attacked. Innocent bystanders killed.

1970
Feb. 21 - Swiss airliner blown up over Switzerland, killing all 47 people on board.


Feb. 23 - PLO terrorists open fire on a busload of Christian pilgrims killing 1 and wounding 2 Americans.
April 21- Bomb explodes aboard a Philippines airliner. All 36 aboard are killed.


Sept. 6 - "Skyjack Sunday" in Jordan. 3 planes (TWA, Swissair, Pan Am) en route to the U.S. hijacked, 400+ hostages, planes blown up in Jordan, Governments agreed to PFLP's demands, released terrorists from jails and hostages released.


Sept. 14 - The PFLP hijacked TWA flight to Ammon, 4 Americans injured.

1971
Nov. 28 - Jordanian prime minister Tal killed by terrorists at the Sheraton Hotel in Cairo, Egypt.
Dec. - Jordanian ambassador to London, England is shot by hit squad.

1972
Jan. 26 - Bomb explodes on a Yugoslav plane killing all but one passenger.


May 30 - Ben Gurion Airport, Israel attack killed 26, and wounded 78 U.S. citizens from Puerto Rico.
Sept. 5 - Palestinian terrorists seize 11 athletes in the Olympic Village in Munich, Germany, 9 hostages and 5 terrorists killed, plus David Berger from Cleveland.

1973
March 2 - Khartoum, Sudan. Cleo Noel, Jr., U.S. ambassador, and George C. Moore, U.S. diplomat, were held hostage and then killed by terrorists at the U.S. Embassy.


Aug. 5 - Suicide squad attacks Athens airport, Greece, killing 3 civilians and injuring 55.


Dec. 17 - Bomb explodes at Pan Am office at Rome, Italy killing 32 and injuring 50+. The terrorists take 7 Italian policemen hostage and hijack an aircraft to Athens, Greece, killing one of them.

1974
March 1 - Diplomats taken hostage from Saudi Arabian Embassy in Khartoum, Sudan, 2 that are killed are American's.


April 11 - Kiryat Shmona Massacre at an apartment building killing 18 people, 9 were children.


Sept. 8 - Athens, Greece. TWA Flight 841 exploded from bomb in cargo hold, all 88 passengers killed, including 32-year-old Steven Lowe, an American citizen.


Nov. 23 - British DC-10 hijacked at Dubai, UAE, flown to Tunisia where a German passenger was killed.

1975
Jan. 19 - Arab terrorists attack Orly airport, Paris, France, seizing 10 hostages from a bathroom. French provided the terrorists with a plane to fly them to safety in Baghdad, Iraq.


Sept. 30 - Hungarian airplane explodes killing all 64 persons on board.


Dec. 21 - Carlos "The Jackal" holds 11 oil ministers and 59 civilians hostage during the OPEC meeting in Vienna, Austria. Flew to Algeria, got $300,000,000 in ransom money, Carlos and his Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine terrorists escape.

1976
Jan. 1 - 82 innocent travelers are killed aboard a Lebanese plane.


June 27 - Air France airliner hijacked, forced to fly to Uganda. Some 258 passengers and crew are held hostage. 3 passengers killed. July 4th, Israeli commandos rescue the remaining hostages.


Aug. 11 - Terrorists attack Istanbul airport, Turkey, killing 4 civilians (1 from U.S.) and injuring 20.


Dec. 4 - Terrorists occupied the Indonesian Embassy in The Hague, Netherlands, 1 official killed.


Dec. 14 - Passenger train hijacked and passengers were kept hostage, 3 were killed.

1977
Jan. 1 - F.E. Melov U.S. ambassador to Lebanon, and Robert O.Waring, the U.S. economic counselor, kidnapped and later killed in Beirut.


Oct. 13 - Palestinian terrorists hijack a Lufthansa Flight 181 Boeing 737 and order it to fly around a number of Middle East destinations for four days, pilot is killed by the terrorists, 90 hostages rescued.

1978
March 11 - Gail Rubin, niece of U.S. Senator Ribicoff, among 38 people shot to death by terrorists on a beach near Tel Aviv.


June 2 - A bomb kills 2 people at the CHOGM meeting in Sydney Australia.

1979
July 29 - Terrorist bombs two railway stations in Madrid, kills 7.


Nov. 4 - Terrorists seized the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and took 66 American diplomats hostage. 13 freed, but the remaining 53 were held until their release on January 20, 1981 - 444 days - at the inauguration of President Ronald Reagan.

1980
April 30 - Terrorists took over the Iranian Embassy in London, holding 26 hostages, 2 of whom died on May 5th after being tortured. Much of the embassy was destroyed by fire.


1981
April 19 - 13 people killed, 177 injured in a terrorist attack in Davao Philippines.


May 13 - Pope John Paul II seriously wounded in assassination attempt in Rome, Italy, by terrorist Mehmet Ali Agca.


Oct. 6 - Egyptian President Anwar Sadat machine gunned dead by Islamic Jihad in Cairo for working for peace. 7 others killed, 28 wounded. The assassins are later executed.

1982
Beginning of the 8 years of terrorism in Lebanon.


July 19 - David Dodge, President of the American University in Beirut kidnapped, spends one year in captivity.


Aug. 19 - Two American citizens, Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler, were killed along with 6 others when the PLO bombed a Kosher restaurant in Paris, France.


Sept. 14 - Lebanon's President Gemayel and 26 others assassinated by a massive car bomb in Beirut.

1983
Mar. 16 - 5 Marines wounded in hand grenade attack on Beirut International Airport.


April 18 - CIA's Middle East Director, and 83 others are killed, 120 injured in truck bomb on the US Embassy in Lebanon.


Sept. 29 - Gulf Air Flight 771 is bombed, explodes killing all 166 aboard.


Oct. 23 - Simultaneous suicide truck bombs in Lebanon: 1st crashed into lobby of US Marine Corps Headquarters, 241 Marines dead, 82 seriously injured - and 2nd was French compounds killing 58 paratroopers.


Dec. 12 - US Embassy in Kuwait targeted to destroy the building with a truck bomb, attack foiled by guards and the device killed 5 people and injured 80.

1984
Jan. 18 - Malcolm Kerr, President of the American University of Beirut, was killed by two Hizballah gunmen.


Mar. 8 - Rev. Weir and wife kidnapped in Lebanon and held for 16 months.


Mar. 9 - Car bomb kills 80 (22 Americans) and wounds more than 200 civilians when it drove past the checkpoint at the U.S. Embassy in Awkar.


Mar. 16 - Hizballah kidnapped, tortured and killed William Buckley, an officer at the U.S. Embassy in Beirut.


Apr. 12 - Hizballah bombed restaurant adjacent to US Air Force base in Torregon Spain, 18 servicemen killed and 83 Americans wounded.


Sept. 20- US embassy in the Beirut is bombed - 2 servicemen and 23 employees are killed, 21 Americans injured including the U.S. and British Ambassadors. 50+ Lebanese were injured.


Dec. 4 - Terrorists hijacked Kuwait Airlines Flight 221 and demanded the release from Kuwaiti jails of some members, serving sentences for attacks on French and American targets. 2 Americans murdered.

1985
March 16 - US journalist Terry Anderson kidnapped in Lebanon, finally released in Dec. 1991 - 6 years later.


April 5 - Bomb explodes outside Hezbollah headquarters in Beirut killing 80 people.


April 12 - Bombing of U.S. soldier's favorite restaurant in Madrid, killing 18 and injuring 82.


June 14 - TWA Boeing 727 Flight 847 hijacked en route to Rome, 8 crew and 145 passengers were held for 17 days, U.S. Navy diver was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the hostages were released after the US pressured to release 435 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners.


Sept. 30 - Four Soviet diplomats kidnapped in Lebanon, 1 killed but other three released unharmed after a relative of the terrorist leader's was kidnapped and killed by the Soviet KGB.


Oct. 7 - Terrorists seize the Italian cruise liner, Achille Lauro, during a cruise in the Mediterranean, taking more than 700 people hostage for 3 days. Disabled U.S. citizen, Leon Klinghoffer, was murdered in front of other hostages by throwing him in the ocean, before the Egyptian Government offered the terrorists safe haven in return for the hostages' freedom.


Nov. 23 - 98 passengers and crew of an Egyptair Flight 648 are held hostage by Palestinian terrorists in Malta. 5 passengers shot, 2 died, later 57 additional passengers killed when the terrorists set off explosives in the aircraft.


Dec. 27 - Suicide grenade and gun attacks in passenger terminals at Rome and Vienna, Italy airports results in 16 people being killed plus 5 Americans and more than 100 civilians injured.

1986
March 30-April 2nd - A bomb exploded on a TWA flight 840 from Rome as it approached Athens airport. The attack killed 4 U.S. citizens who were sucked through a hole made by the blast, 1 infant, and 9 injured, although the plane safely landed.


April 6 - An explosion at the "La Belle" nightclub in Berlin, U.S. soldiers' hang-out, was bombed, killing 3 and injuring 230 people, including 79 U.S. soldiers.


Sept. 5 - Pan Am Boeing 747 Flight 73 en route to Frankfurt and on to New York hijacked by Palestinian terrorists, with 379 passengers, including 89 Americans, 22 hostages killed, 127 wounded.


Sept. 9 - Hezballah kidnapped Frank Reed, President of American University in Beirut, and held for 44 months, and Joseph Cicippio, and Edward Tracy who were each held for 5 years.


Sept. 17 - A 10-month series of terrorist bomb attacks in France begins. One bomb in Paris kills 5 and injures 52.

1987
A car bomb exploded outside the back gate of the U.S. Embassy in Rome and rockets were fired at the compound from across the street. One passerby was injured in the attacks.

1988
Feb. 5 - US Marine Corps Lt. Colonel Higgens, Chief of the U.N. Truce Force kidnapped and murdered by Hezbollah.


March 16 - 4000+ Kurdish civilian bodies found after Saddam Hussein ordered nerve gas attack (weapon of mass destruction) in northern Iraq, after they revolted against his rule from Baghdad. 1.5 million relocated, 200,000 disappeared.


April 5 - 122 held hostage after a Kuwaiti Boeing 747 was hijacked and diverted to Iran, then Cyprus. Kuwait refused requests by hijackers to release 17 convicted terrorists. After 15 days the hijackers were granted asylum in Algeria and released their hostages.


June 26 - US Naval Attaché killed in Athens, Greece.


Dec. 21 - Pan Am Flight 103 - Boeing 747 from London to New York, blown up over Lockerbie, Scotland, by a bomb. All 259 passengers and 11 on the ground were killed, including 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel.

1989
June 12 - A bomb exploded aboard an unoccupied boat used by U.S. consular staff.


Sept. 19 - 171 passengers killed when French UTA flight 772 explodes in mid-air over Niger.


October 11 - Izmir, Turkey. A bomb went off outside a U.S. military PX.

1990
Feb. - Attack of tour bus in Egypt killing 11.

1991
Feb. 7 - Incirlik Air Base, Turkey, U.S. civilian contractor shot as he was getting into his car.


Oct. 28 - Ankara, Turkey. Victor Marwick, an American soldier serving at the Turkish-American base, Tuslog, was killed and his wife wounded in a car bomb attack.


Oct. 28 - Two car bombings killed a U.S. Air Force Sergeant and severely wounded an Egyptian diplomat in Istanbul.


Nov. 8 - Bomb destroyed part of the American University in Beirut, killing 1 and wounding 12.

1992
March 17 - Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina, destroyed by bomb killing 29, injuring 60.


Hotel in Yemen bombed and U.S. servicemen killed, Operation Restore Hope.

1993
Jan. 25, Virginia, U.S.A. A Pakistani terrorist opened fire with AK-47 on CIA employees standing outside the building. Two agents, Frank Darling and Bennett Lansing, were killed and 3 others wounded.


Feb. 26 - World Trade Center in New York badly damaged by a massive bomb by Islamic terrorists. The van bomb was planted in an underground garage and left 6 people dead and 1042 injured and almost ½ billion dollars in damage.


Feb. 26 - A bomb exploded inside a café in downtown Cairo killing 3, 18 wounded, 2 U.S. citizens.


July 5 - In 8 separate incidents, 19 Western tourists traveling in southeastern Turkey were kidnapped, including U.S. citizen Starger, after weeks in captivity, they were released.


Oct - Killing of U. S. soldiers in Somalia.

1994
July 18 - 86 civilians killed and 300 wounded in bomb attack on Jewish social centre in Buneos Aires, Argentina.


July 26 - Israeli Embassy in London is car-bombed, wounding 20.
Air France Flight 8969 is hijacked to crash the plane in Paris but didn't succeed.


A small bomb explodes on board Philippine Airlines flight 434, killing a Japanese businessman.

1995
Jan. 22 - Islamic Jihad militants blow themselves up amid a group of soldiers near Netanya, killing 21. Operation Bojinka is discovered on a laptop in a Manila, Philippines apartment, in which Osama bin Laden was planning to blow up 12 planes as they flew to the U.S., plus kill the Pope.


March 8 - Attack on US Diplomats in Pakistan.


April 9 - Islamic Jihad suicide bomber attacks military convoy in Gaza, killing 7 soldiers and an American tourist.


May 5 - Five foreign oil workers murdered by Islamic GIA terrorists in Algeria.


June 26 - Assassination attempt made against Egyptian President Honsi Mubarak by Islamic radicals who ambushed his motorcade.


July 4 - Six tourists, including two U.S. citizens taken hostage in Kashmir, India. Terrorists demanded the release of Muslim militants held in Indian prisons. On Aug. 13 the decapitated body of the Norwegian hostage was found with a note stating that the other hostages also would be killed if the group's demands were not met. They were not and all other hostages were killed in 1996 by the terrorists.


July 25 - Islamic terrorists explode bomb in metro station in Paris, France, killing 7 people and injuring 84.


Nov. 13 - Car bomb exploded at US Army Office of the Program Manager for Saudi Arabian National Guard Modernization, in Saudi Arabia, killing seven, five of them U.S. citizens, and wounding nearly a hundred.


Nov. 19 - Islamic radicals plant bomb in Egyptian embassy in Pakistan killing 17.


Dec. 11 - 15 concurrent car bombings in Algiers kill 15 civilians and over 200 injured.

1996
Feb. 11 - Terrorists explode car bomb in Algiers killing 17. The following month, 2 more killed in another bomb and 10 are killed in a train ambush in western Algeria.


Feb. 25 - A suicide bomber blew up a commuter bus in Jerusalem, killing 26, including 3 U.S. citizens, and injuring 80 others, among them another two U.S. citizens.


April 19 - Eighteen Greek tourists were gunned down near the historic Pyramids in Egypt by Islamic terrorists aiming to destroy the country's tourist industry.


May - Osama bin Laden unites the Islamic Fundamentalists worldwide in their Jihad against Jews and Western Gentiles, such as al-Qaeda, Palestinian Authority, Hezbollah, Hamas, Mujahideen, using the Taliban's organization to help fund the operations.


June 25 - Terrorists explode a truck bomb next to a USAF Khobar Towers housing facility at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killing 19 American servicemen and 515 injured including 240 U.S. personnel.
Islamic terrorists attack tourists in Luxor, Egypt, killing 71 people, most of them vacationers.


Aug. 26 - Sudan Airways A310 Airbus airliner hijacked en route to Jordan and diverted to England. British authorities negotiate with hijackers who release all the 13 crew and 180 passengers unharmed.


Dec. 3 - A bomb exploded aboard a Paris subway train, killing four and injuring 86 persons, including a U.S. citizen.


Dec. 23 - A car bomb in the Algerian capital, Algiers, kills three and injures 70 people in cafe near the port. Again a week later, a car bomb kills 28 people and injures 35 people. 3rd car bomb in the past two weeks, killing additional 13 people and injuring more than 250.

1997
Jan. 2 - Major cities worldwide and U.S. get letter bombs with Egyptian postmarks at newspaper bureaus in DC, New York, London, Riyadh, S.A., and Leavenworth, KN. Experts defused all but the 1 in London, injuring 2.


Jan. 7 to 21st - Islamic terrorist rampage during these 14 days with car bombs and beheadings in Algiers, total of 238 dead, 139 wounded.


Feb. 23 - Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State building in New York, killing 1 and wounding over a dozen visitors before turning the gun on himself.


March 7 - Two killed in bus bomb attack in Beijing, China.
April - Terrorists behead innocent civilians this whole month with a total of 272 murdered and over 100 injured. Knives, axes and chainsaws were used and many of the bodies were burned while still alive.


Sept. 18- 9 German tourists killed when Muslims fire bombed bus in Cairo, Egypt.


Nov. 12 - 2 Terrorists shot to death 4 U.S. auditors of a Texas petroleum company and their driver at a Sheraton Hotel in Karachi, Pakistan.


Nov. 17 - 58 western tourists killed and 30 injured in gun attack at historic monuments in southern Egypt. 6 of the Islamic terrorists are killed in shoot out with police.

1998
Jan. 15 - U.S. Embassy bombing in Peru.
Published February 23, 1998 - Statement signed by many Islamic Jihad Leaders from most Muslim countries, first by Sheikh Osamah Bin-Ladin: "...In compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies--civilians and military--is an individual duty for every Muslim who can, in any country in which it is possible... We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded, to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. Unless you go forth, Allah will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."


Aug. 7 - Simultaneous bombs in US Embassies in Kenya, and Tanzania, heavily damaged by massive attacks. In the Nairobi attack 292 people were killed, including 12 Americans, and 5,000 injured. 10 people were killed and 86 injured in Tanzania incident for a total of 302 dead, 5086 injured within an hour.


Aug. 25 - 3 people killed and 25 injured in bomb attack on Planet Hollywood restaurant in Cape Town, South Africa.


Dec. 28 - 16 Western tourists kidnapped, 12 Britons, 2 U.S. citizens, and 2 Australians on the main road to Aden, Yemen. Four victims were killed during a rescue attempt the next day.

1999
Aug. 31 to Sept. 22nd - Russian apartment bombings kill almost 300 and injured 100.


Oct. 31 - EgyptAir Flight 990 crashed off the U.S. coast of Massachusetts, killing all 217 people on board, including 100 Americans.


Nov. 12 - Six rockets were fired at the U.S. and U.N. offices in Islamabad, Pakistan.


Dec. - Millennium terror plots foiled as customs agents arrest a man smuggling in explosives. Plan to attack Los Angeles airport and other sites intercepted by CIA. Also Jordanian authorities foil a plot to bomb US tourists in Jordan, pick up 28 suspects.
Indian Airlines Flight 814, en route to Delhi, India is hijacked, 1 passenger is killed. After negotiations with the Taliban, the hostages are released.

2000
The last of the 2000 millennium attack plots fails, as the boat meant to bomb USS The Sullivans sinks.


Oct. 12 - A suicide boat exploded next to the U.S.S. Cole (guided-missile destroyer), blowing a hole 40 feet in diameter, killing 17 American sailors and injuring 39.

2001
Feb. 5 - A bomb blast in Moscow's Byelorusskaya subway station injures 15 people.


March 28 - Bombing at bus stop in Yemen. U.S. citizens injured including a 15 year old boy from NY.


Aug. 9 - Bombing at Sbarro's pizzeria, killed 15 and wounded over 90, 2 of which were U.S. citizens.


Sept. 11 - 4 U.S. jetliners hijacked and forced to crash into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon like missiles, and 1 crashed in Pennsylvania on the way to the Capital Building in D.C. In all, 266 people perished in the four planes, 2602 people were killed on the ground, plus 343 firefighters, and 184 people at the Pentagon. Almost 5000 injured, 500 rescue workers now have respiratory ailments. 7 buildings collapsed in NY and 23 damaged, plus 4 subway stations.

Oct. 27 - Darya Khanah bombed


Dec. 13 - Terrorist attack on Indian Parliament.


Dec. - Richard Reid, attempting to destroy American Airlines Flight 63 from Paris to Miami, is subdued by passengers and flight attendants before he could detonate his shoe bomb.

2002
Jan. 27 - A Palestinian woman triggered a massive explosion in Jerusalem killing 1 Israeli and injuring more than 150, including American Mark Sokolow, his wife, and both teenage daughters. Sokolow had survived the 9-11 attack on the World Trade Center, escaping from his law office on the 38th floor of the South Tower before it collapsed.


Feb. 16 - Bombing in Karnei Shomron, in a group of teenage girls from the U.S. 2 killed, 4 wounded. Singapore embassies terrorist attack plot foiled March 24 - 20 people die and 93 injured in 3 bomb attacks on Russian towns near the border of Chechnya.


April - Explosion at most historic synagogue in Tunisia left 21 dead, most are German tourists.


May 9 - A bomb exploded in Dagestan kills 42 people and injures 130 during Victory Day festivities.
French oil tanker Limburg bombing off Yemen
Kidnapping and murder of journalist Daniel Pearl


Oct. 12 - Bali car bombing of holidaymakers in a nightclub kills 202 Australian citizens.
Zamboanga bombings in the Philippines


Oct. 19 - Car bomb explodes at McDonald's restaurant in Moscow, killing 1 person and wounding 5.


Oct. 23 - Moscow theater hostage crisis begins; 120 hostages and 40 terrorists killed in rescue 3 days later.


Nov. - Kenyan hotel suicide bombing kills 16 safari tourists.
Marines attacked / murdered in Kuwait

2003
May 10- Suicide bombers killed 36 (10 U.S. citizens), at housing compounds for westerners in Riyadh, S.A. Many wounded.
May 12 - attack outside U.S. Consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.


May 14 - 16 die in a suicide bombing at a religious festival in southeastern Chechnya.


May - 4 bombs killed 33 tourists (8 U.S. citizens) in Casablanca, Morocco.
July 5 - 15 people die and 40 are injured in bomb attacks at a rock festival in Moscow.


Aug. 1 - An explosion at the Russian hospital in North Ossetia kills 50 people and injures 76.


Aug. - Suicide car bomb killed 12 and injured over 150 at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.


Sept. 3- A bomb on a passenger train in southern Russia kills 7 people and injures 90.


Oct. 15 - Bombing of US diplomatic convoy in the Gaza Strip: 3 U.S. citizens killed.


Nov. - Explosions rocked a Riyadh, S.A. housing compound, killing 17.


Nov. - Truck bombs detonated at London bank and British consulate in Istanbul kills 26, injures 22.


Dec. 5 - Suicide bombers kill 46 people in an attack on a train in southern Russia.


Dec. 9 - A blast in the center of Moscow kills 6 people and wounds at least 11.

Bombings of United States expatriate housing compounds in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kill 26 and injure 160.


Attacks in Casablanca, Morocco leaves 41 dead. The attack involved 12 bombers and 5 targets. The targets were "Western and Jewish".
Istanbul Bombings: Within five days, truck bombs go off at two synagogues, the British Consulate, and the HSBC Bank in Istanbul, Turkey

2004
109 Kurds are killed in 2 suicide bombings in Arbil, Iraq Feb. 6 - Bomb on Moscow subway kills 41.


Feb. 27 - Superferry 14 is bombed in the Philippines by Abu Sayyaf, killing 116.


March 11 - 10 Simultaneous bombings of busiest rush hour commuter trains in Madrid, Spain kills 202 people and injures more than 1,400.


April 21 - Bombing of a security building in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills 5.


May 29 - Al-Khobar massacres--Islamic terrorists kill 22 people and one American at an oil compound in Saudi Arabia.


June 8, 2004 Robert Jacobs, a US defense contractor employee is assassinated at his home in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia by Al-Qaeda terrorists.

June 11 - Terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson, Jr. in Riyadh.


Aug. 24 - Russian airplane bombings kill 90.


August 31 A blast near a subway station entrance in northern Moscow, caused by a suicide bomber, kills 10 people and injures 33.
Sept. 1 - 3 Beslan school hostage crisis in North Ossetia, Russia results in over 330 dead.


Sept. 9 - Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia was bombed, killing 9 people.


Oct. 7 - 3 car bombs explode in the Sinai Peninsula hotel, killing 32 and wounding 114, most of them tourists.
as you can see, this whole terrorism thing is clearly just a new, made up phenomenon.
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Old 11-12-2004, 08:00 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by paulrg


I'm going to tread carefully here. Please take what I wrote in the context of the rest of my reply. Ultimately, in hard, human life terms, 3000 people (as f&^%% up as that was) in one day 3 years ago is not the same as 6,500 lives a day every single one of those days since. That is really what I was saying. And yes it is a horrible thought but the global media have probably given 10000x the coverage to the "War Against Terrorism" as they have to the African crises. And no they are not directly comparable. But we watching as this war on terror is being distorted to meet big governments own wishes.


hold it. talking about the death toll misses the point of 9-11. the concern isn't with the numbers, but with the manner in which these attacks were carried out and how they represent something entirely new in the West. i understand that people in the UK and France have dealt with terrorism in the past, but you simply cannot compare the bombing of a pub to what happened on 9-11. the reason why you absolutely cannot underestimate this kind of radical islam is because it rhapsodizes in death. at the end of the day, your average IRA terrorist, Algerian nationalist, whoever -- and this extends back in history, to Nazi Germany and the Soviety Union loves his children and wants to wake up in a better world. this is not true of the kind of terrorist we saw on 9-11. these people are suicidal, their targets are civilians, and the more dead the better. one one level, i really don't think Europe understands this in the way many Americans do -- especially people like me who know people who were killed in the WTC, and also people who made it out alive -- on a very visceral level.

that said, our current government is exploiting this situation, and using it as justification for an agenda, first of which was the invasion and occupation of Iraq, as well as furthering the Orwellian powers of the government over the lives of american people at home. i think the Bushies -- who i voted against -- do "get" the abject nihilism at the core of your aveage Al Qaeda member, but they've cynically manipulated the american public (who are rightfully very scared) for politican gain far away from the "War on Terror."
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Old 11-12-2004, 08:01 AM   #40
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PS. Do you really think Kerry would have let other people run the country? I doubt it, even though it has been soundly argued that MNCs/TNCs are guiding US and Canadian policy more than governments.

I also can't say I find "moral values" a logically cogent reason for voting for Bush. Lies and subsequently murder are not exactly what I consider to be upstanding moral values.

Re: the Oil for food program....this isn't a competition btw who has done the greatest harm. We're all guilty of not getting rid of Saddam earlier and some for putting him in the first place. That said, it can be argued that all the "innocent Iraqi people" killed during the American invasion and subsequent occupation has done more harm than oil for food. It's murder. Why? Because, like it or not, the majority of people in the world see it that way and it seems to be the majority that defines terms. Just because you do it with your own goverment's justification doesn't legitimize anything...especially since the premises turned out to be false/lies.

The invasion has also done more harm because you can rest assured that in the next 15 years, some Iraqis who's lives were destroyed by this war and were not formerly terrorists, are going to seek revenge against the west for the harm brought down on them. this applies whether they're religious or not. To these people, their invaders are just as much Christian fundamentalists as you think they are radical islamists. Who's right and who's to say? The answer? Nobody. And I can't say that they don't have a point, too. If it were my house and my family, I don't know what i'd do.

September 11th and Iraq and WMD turned out to be completely unrelated. Don't you think people deserve to know why they're dying?...and to maybe decide for themselves if it's a good reason? Remember that it was 35-40 years of right-wing foreign policy that brought us to this point. Is the answer to keep going in the same direction. "How long, to sing this song?"

Please keep it in mind that this is not anti-american. I lived in Boston for years and it's one of my favourite places. I love the US, but I maintain my right to disagree with the opinions posted so far.
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