A book for the cynics and skeptics. The AfterLife Experiments -Gary Schwartz Phd.

[diamond]

mtoreilly,


well then i guess you will never know.

"I've only ever questioned how legitimate this book is. If I had hours of my life to waste on reading this book.."

and these 2 statements are reasons you should read.

1-to find out if the book and science are legit.
2-to find out if it were a waste or not.

then u will know if your time was wasted or not.

and only then can you make a fair judgement.

db9

 

[mtoreilly]

well then i guess you will never know.

I'm sure I can live with that

 

[diamond]

I'm sure I can live with that

hear hear, a toast to tolerence and open mindedness.

db9

 

[Angela Harlem]

I'm frankly surprised that someone of your intelligence has lapped this up Diamond. But I assume to be so steadfast, you have reviewed extensively, all the research into debunking this obvious pioneer in the paranormal and parapsychology fields.

 

[diamond]

I'm frankly surprised that someone of your intelligence has lapped this up Diamond. But I assume to be so steadfast, you have reviewed extensively, all the research into debunking this obvious


Angela,
Not really lapping it up. Not like a pavlov dog, just thought I'd share the information.

And 98% of the so called psychics, tarot card readers and mediums are frauds.

The real ones or legitimate psychics/mediums hate the burden they've been given.

In the book the author exposes the fradulent ones and their methods.
There are a couple of chapters devoted to fradulent mediums/psychics and their parlor tricks.

I found the book to present an interesting avenue that provides confirmation that there is something else larger than ourselves going on in the universe we all share. I thought some might find the information compelling..if they gave it a fair shake.

The irritating thing was having some ppl dimiss it out of hand.

And if they want to dismiss all psychics/mediums out of hand some crimes would have never been solved or prosecuted.

Check these for your consideration:

http://www.johnjoliver.com/policework.html
http://www.psychicvista.com/articles/PsiPoliceWork.htm

I will admit the field of mediums and psychics are polluted by 98-99% fraudulent ones, however there are some genuine ones and it's a field/science that we have barely scratched the surface of.
These are who the book is devoted to, and how he proved it.

Some have been raised to steer clear of all mediums/psychics for religous reasons, they've been raised on fear, instilled by their religous instructors.

My response is I recognize truth can come from many different sources and I'm not afraid explore all avenues of truth. No one holds a monopoly on truth. Some may think they do, but they do not. Im not afraid of truth, or where it may spring from.




db9

ps-
and for the record i don't visit psychics or mediums..i would rather live life as one big surprise.

 

[diamond]

I'm frankly surprised that someone of your intelligence has lapped this up Diamond. But I assume to be so steadfast, you have reviewed extensively, all the research into debunking this obvious pioneer in the paranormal and parapsychology fields.

the conspiracy continues...

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF_NDEs.htm

db9

 

[indra]

the conspiracy continues...

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF_NDEs.htm

db9

Oooohhh! I like this one:

A rare Hispanic gustatory NDE; He had coffee with his grandmother.

Coffee with my grandmother was apt to cause a near death experience too!

 

[U2DMfan]

I have read one called Life After Life which was a study of NDE's and it was at the very least interesting, certainly not scientific. It's a pretty old book.

Anyhow, with this book I was intrigued by the post because I have yet to hear about this one.

And then I kept reading about your thoughts on Neptune and felt as if my brain matter was being sucked away. What pure and total mind blowingly complete fucking nonsense. My head ached after reading that ludicrous stretch.

So now I have no interest at all. Good job.

I kid, I kid. Silly me beleives in Pluto even, what nonsense!!!!!

 

[DrTeeth]

This is just more of the same.

 

[Angela Harlem]

666. Oscar D's NDE. English expanded version 8/13/2005 was involved in a critical accident where my I had an inactive heart for 7 minutes and when I was resuscitated I went into an instant comma for 2 weeks... I saw my Grandmother who was diseased for about 2 years ..she was holding my hand assuring me everything was going to be ok.
NDE associated with accident.

....intelligence is everything.

 

[diamond]

I have read one called Life After Life which was a study of NDE's and it was at the very least interesting, certainly not scientific. It's a pretty old book.

Anyhow, with this book I was intrigued by the post because I have yet to hear about this one.

And then I kept reading about your thoughts on Neptune and felt as if my brain matter was being sucked away. What pure and total mind blowingly complete fucking nonsense. My head ached after reading that ludicrous stretch.

So now I have no interest at all. Good job.

I kid, I kid. Silly me beleives in Pluto even, what nonsense!!!!!

Life after Life is a good book and ground breaking in the field of NDEs/HereAfter in which this thread is about.

I think some may have misconstrued my point on Neptune. The point was that and most of us know that Neptune exists without having seen or visited Neptune.

It's a principle of faith. I take the evidence presented and weigh it all out. It's that simple.

I think one reason we have come to earth, is to develop faith.
We all have an inkling of the Divine imbeded in our souls and depending on how we choose to live we can develop that inkling thru our faith.

Another gift given to us our free will so we can choose to develop our faith. You see our Creator isn't one to force his will on us. It's our choice on how we want our develop our faith. That our souls are eternal some souls have chosen to develop their faith quicker than others, some aren't ready yet, and yet, even some are at a phase of considering to do so.

That God is merciful and just , God isn't standing with a large stick waiting to rap us on the head. God put us here and knows the our thoughts, our circumstances and where we're at in the development of our souls.

God is the source where all Love spang from. God is extremely paitient with us. He sent his Son as the example to be followed and one day in this life or the next we will come to this knowledge.

My hope is that we all realize how much God loves and knows each of us, and that God is alot more approachable and less judgemental than a lot of us realize.

It's that simple.
I love you guys.

diamond

 

[diamond]

Another fascinating website.
I would encourage people in search of something larger then themselves, perhaps searching for their truth or a spiritual path to look here:

http://www.near-death.com/

db9

 

[Angela Harlem]

you confuse truth with faith.

 

[DaveC]

I think some may have misconstrued my point on Neptune. The point was that and most of us know that Neptune exists without having seen or visited Neptune.

It's a principle of faith. I take the evidence presented and weigh it all out. It's that simple.

No, it's not.

It's checkable to anyone with an interest to do so. All you need is a decent star chart and a semi-powerful telescope and any old joe blow can go out in his or her backyard and see Neptune. It's an easily proven fact that Neptune exists, and if you are skeptical, you can take the necessary steps (rather easily even with a small amount of money - telescopes are cheap these days) to go out and prove to yourself that it exists.

That's not possible with the afterlife. I mean, short of dying, nobody is able to be absolutely sure of an afterlife. Even people who claim to have near-death experiences must be taken on faith. In many cases, NDE's have been proven to be hallucinations resulting from medications or procedures administered while the person is near death. To believe the medium is to take it on faith as well. You are believing that what they say is absolutely true. It can be just an extraordinarily huge coincidence, a total guess on personal details. It could happen.

A scientific theory is only really a theory unless it is fact checkable. The afterlife is not fact checkable. All that you can go on are statements made by people who claim to have experiences with the afterlife. It's all a matter of faith regardless. You can't mathematically or with hard, repeatable facts check the theory that there is an afterlife, and therefore it isn't a theory. It's therefore a matter of faith.

The claim that this book is scientifically supported is absolute bunk.

 

[diamond]

The claim that this book is scientifically supported is absolute bunk.

A) You havent read the book.

B.
In many cases, NDE's have been proven to be hallucinations resulting from medications or procedures administered while the person is near death

B)a-
Well that's a start. You said in many cases.. So that means not all cases. There have been ppl that have been dead for hours no vital signs, the sheets thrown over their heads and on their way or being prepped for the morgue.

For some reason God allows them to come back and share with us what they saw.
Too many consistent stories that parallel eachother many of them from little children who are without guile and only tell what they saw without fear of ridicule from close minded older earhbound folks.

Dave C I would encourage to look at some of these w/an open mind.

Here's a 10 year boys account:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/animals04.html

Some adults:



http://www.near-death.com/andreason.html
http://www.near-death.com/dougherty.html
http://www.near-death.com/forum/nde/000/93.html

peace,
db9

 

[joyfulgirl]

I think the problem with this thread is the audience to which it was pitched. Diamond, you have successfully attracted the cynics and skeptics. Unfortunately that is not the target market for this book.

I agree.

I don't know why everyone is coming down so hard on Diamond. I can't comment on the book because I haven't read it and it just isn't my thing but I support everyone's spiritual quests, especially if it's beyond traditional Judeo-Christian teachings. There's a lot of crap out there to be sure, but if Diamond finds something in this book that is meaningful to him and opens him up in some way, I say go for it--just don't stop there.

 

[diamond]

I agree.

I don't know why everyone is coming down so hard on Diamond. I can't comment on the book because I haven't read it and it just isn't my thing but I support everyone's spiritual quests, especially if it's beyond traditional Judeo-Christian teachings.....

Thanks my sweet sister.
You might be interested in this guy, he has worked w Dr Schwartz..and believes in Reincarnation..

http://www.vanpraagh.com/

As far as me, I don't quite believe in Reincarnation but I know are Souls didn't just flare into existence, and we had a say in where we would live, what our strenghths and weaknesses would be in this life -all so that we could learn and grow for the betterment of our Souls.
I do think the whole concept of Reincarnation and all world religions will be explained to us and why they were necessary.

I do think when we get up to the big table in the next life our Creator will be much more loving, gentle ,tolerant and compassonate that we can even comprehend, based on each of our own understanding and circumstances of our lives.

Being that he is perfect, we will be able to judge our ownselves in his presence. And in his perfection he will not let us judge our ownselves too harshly.

In each of our souls is a barometer where we know we are doing right or wrong, and it's being recorded to be reviewed at a future date, when we return home to our Creator.

So this life is to listen to the yearnings of our Souls so that we can prepare for our next existence, where being in his presence will be where we find the most joy.

diamond

 

[melon]

Okay...I wanted to comment here finally.

I don't have a strict opinion one way or another on this matter, but I am interested in the idea of the cultural construct.

In India, where there is rampant belief in reincarnation, there are five year old children or so claiming to be reincarnated souls and supposedly are able to describe those past lives in detail, which then the researchers can trace to a real person. Hence, there's the "compelling evidence" that reincarnation exists.

Between this and near-death experiences, there's two options that come to mind:

1) The mind plays tricks on us, which is why it always conforms to our existing belief system and never someone else's system (i.e., you never hear of a fundamentalist Christian having a reincarnation experience or a Hindu Brahman having a near-death experience and seeing Jesus).

2) The true "God" is everything and nothing, and, in His omniscence, assumes the role of all of our human constructed deities, while simultaneously not actually being any of them.

Just some thoughts...

Melon

 

[BonosSaint]

Finally got around to reading it. It was OK, but I think I found out I don't have much interest in an afterlife. This one is troublesome enough. I could not connect.

 

[Diemen]

umm ok.



db9

QUOTES
"Science meets spiritualism
in this extraordinarily precise and detailed chronicle of experiments.
It is one of the most important books written on this subject."
James Van Praagh
Spiritual medium and author of Talking to Heaven

"A compelling read,
this book supports with real evidence the existence of a spirit world
that many assumed was there, but may now embrace beyond reasonable doubt."
George E. Dalzell, L.C.S.W.
Author of Messages: Evidence for Life After Death

"Anyone who has ever questioned life after death
must read THE AFTERLIFE EXPERIMENTS.
Dr. Schwartz's work finally closes the gulf in our understanding of life and death."
Joel Rothschild
Author of Signals

"Gary Schwartz navigates his readers
on a journey of discovery.
At last we can take another collective step toward affirming
that life and love survive physical death ...Thanks, Gary!"
Judy Guggenheim
After-death communication researcher and co-author of Hello From Heaven!

"Dr. Schwartz perfectly blends
the academic principles of science with the abstract possibilities of spirituality,
searching to answer the age-old question of what happens after we die.
This book is [a] must-read and must-own ...
or anyone who struggles with faith, love, death, and aspects of divinity."
John Edward, host of Crossing Over With John Edward
and author of Crossing Over: The Stories Behind the Stories

You actually include quotes from so-called "mediums" and people who arguably stand to profit from this book's findings, and use them as some kind of evidence of legitimacy?

Well if John Edward likes the book, then it must be true!

 

[DaveC]

A) You havent read the book.

B.
In many cases, NDE's have been proven to be hallucinations resulting from medications or procedures administered while the person is near death

B)a-
Well that's a start. You said in many cases.. So that means not all cases. There have been ppl that have been dead for hours no vital signs, the sheets thrown over their heads and on their way or being prepped for the morgue.

You're right, I did say "many" cases. But that's because the other ones aren't provable by any kind of test. Just because it can't be totally proven that the NDE was a hallucination doesn't automatically mean that the person had an experience with the afterlife.

Dave C I would encourage to look at some of these w/an open mind.

And I will, if I can find the book. It sounds actually somewhat interesting to see the methods and findings. I just don't see how this could be truly scientifically supported, but as I said, if I can find the book in a library around here, I will check it out.

 

[verte76]

I don't rely on science for my belief in an afterlile. It's an article of faith for me. So I don't give a damn about any scientific evidence, I don't need it.

 

[diamond]

Okay...I wanted to comment here finally.

I don't have a strict opinion one way or another on this matter, but I am interested in the idea of the cultural construct.

In India, where there is rampant belief in reincarnation, there are five year old children or so claiming to be reincarnated souls and supposedly are able to describe those past lives in detail, which then the researchers can trace to a real person. Hence, there's the "compelling evidence" that reincarnation exists.

Between this and near-death experiences, there's two options that come to mind:

1) The mind plays tricks on us, which is why it always conforms to our existing belief system and never someone else's system (i.e., you never hear of a fundamentalist Christian having a reincarnation experience or a Hindu Brahman having a near-death experience and seeing Jesus).

2) The true "God" is everything and nothing, and, in His omniscence, assumes the role of all of our human constructed deities, while simultaneously not actually being any of them.

Just some thoughts...

Melon

i lean towards part of option 2.

 

[diamond]

A personal account experienced and written out by a M.D. :

Dr. Ralph H's NDE


I tell this story to you with some reticence; because I've had some Christians imply to me that they believed that my "vision" could not have been of God. I'm going to use the word "vision" in telling this story, for lack of a better word. I do not mean a vision that carries connotations of new revelation or talking face to face with God, or any such thing. I would call it a dream but it was decidedly different from any dream I've ever experienced. I was THERE! In real flesh and blood, standing in the meadow and experiencing an emotional sensation that is not describable in any language that I know. But, I'm getting ahead of myself...

After coronary bypass on Thursday I was doing well until Saturday evening when I suffered my first cardiac arrest (the heart quits beating). I had had a couple of major heart attacks, but this was my first arrest. I was on lots of various medications, my heart had begun to fail and my blood pressure had dropped to critically low levels. I had also developed pulmonary edema (fluid filling the lungs) along with the heart failure. Consequently my mind was filled with pain and thirst, fear, and confusion. My family had all arrived from four different states expecting a deathwatch.

I was staring at the ceiling with all this noise and confusion around me when I heard a distant bagpipe! There was a PA speaker that I could see on the ceiling and I was curious and even a little amused as to the source and reason for bagpipe music in the rooms of the Intensive Care Unit. It started very distant but slowly I could hear it clearer and realized that there was also some singing. (At one time I knew the melody and some of the lyrics, but when I tried to tell my family and asked them to write down the words, they became agitated and frightened. They thought this was just the hallucinations and ramblings of a dying man. It was three weeks later before I could convince them that this was much more, but by then I had lost the tune. It was an Irish-sounding melody that was neither a jig nor a dirge. It was lively, a fun kind of music. In fact, I first described the man that I saw as a traveler. As the music filled the room, the room faded away and I was standing, fit and strong, on the top of a small hill within a landscape of rolling hills. I was looking down the slope of the hill over a broad meadow where a small man wearing kilts was walking away from me playing bagpipes and singing. I never saw his face and he never stopped walking. As I stood there I was overcome with an emotion that is made trite by any descriptions such as love, peace, contentment, hope, joy, etc. But that is the best that I can do. I remember on one occasion as I stood marveling in this peace and joy I thought to myself that this is what I've been pursuing all my life. Everything that I had done, good and bad was ultimately trying to come to this sense Happiness.

Along with this emotion was the desire not to leave and I felt a very strong desire to follow the man down into the meadow. But I knew that if I did that I couldn't come back. About the moment when I was ready to follow, thoughts of my wife and four teenaged children would come to mind and I knew that they still needed me. I made a conscious decision to stay each time. On one occasion I told the man that I couldn't come now but would come later. I later learned that one of my nurses (Janice) said that when they shocked me back once as my heart began beating and I came around again that I mumbled something like "I'll come later."

As mentioned this happened virtually the same way ten times. The scene on the hill was what I would imagine Ireland or Scotland to look like. Other than being the most beautiful scene that I've ever seen, there was nothing unnatural about it. There were rocks and clumps of grass and a blue sky with scattered clouds. It was very real to me. I've never been to either country and have no recollection of ever seeing a picture that resembled my vision. I was standing on the top of a small hill looking out across a meadow that continued to roll into the distance. To my left was an ancient stone fence that descended across the meadow. The small man was about 20 yards down the slope from me. To the distant right was a rocky shoreline with waves breaking over the boulders.

What is it with this Scot-Irish stuff? My maternal grandfather was John McDonald and I was very close with him as a child. My grandparents lived very nearby and I spent a lot of time with them. Grandpa was a hard worker and a good man, and raised 10 children. He did enjoy a wee bit of whiskey from time to time. I never saw him drink at home, except maybe a beer while we listened to the Cardinals beat the Cubs on the radio. But on Saturday night he would walk two blocks down the street to Baldy? Tavern and drink beer and shots of whiskey. He would come home about midnight and would usually be singing some of the old Irish songs that he had learned in his youth. I can still hear some of them. I loved my Grandpa and still miss him. He died when I was about twelve.

Anyway, although I am genetically only about one third Irish, that's the heritage that I claim. I'm not sure what that has to do with the vision, but that is the only connection that I can make. My Mother, an old school, pre-Vatican II Catholic, is sure that I saw my Grandfather welcoming me to heaven. I don't know; and furthermore, I don't care! It is not the vision that matters. It is the effect. Although a nominal Christian I was very caught-up in my career, success, material wealth, etc. These experiences showed me that God loves me and my family. I was asked by one skeptical Christian how I knew that this vision was from God (he was troubled by the Celtic imagery) I answered that if it were from Satan it sure as hell backfired! Jesus truly came into my life after this (when I finally let Him in). The trials that were ahead of me were just too much for me to handle alone and God saw to it that I would have the Holy Spirit with me always. I was to spend 320 days in the hospital, on life support for over six months, then a heart transplant, followed by numerous serious complications before returning home. It was seven months more before I returned to some part-time work. But my family and I came through it all and we are all happy, content and SAVED! Praise our Awesome, Loving God!

 

[A_Wanderer]

Ah the human brain in shutdown, what a great trip into conciousness we all get to look forward too.

 

[DrTeeth]

This is just more of the same.

 

[INDY500]

Tell me not, in mournful numbers,
Life is but an empty dream!
For the soul is dead that slumbers,
and things are not what they seem.
Life is real! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal;
Dust thou art; to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.
---Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

 

[mtoreilly]

I'm sorry to hear of your ill-health and am pleased you are on your way to some sort of recovery.

 

[diamond]

yes, your comments are consistent.

dbs

 

[Ormus]

I don't believe that NDEs can ever conclusively point to the notion of an afterlife, considering that you can drive Occam's Razor through a gigantic hole in the entire concept, although for those who already believe in one, it is certainly quite a fascinating phenomenon.

Now speaking from a philosophical POV, if NDEs are merely an illusion from a dying brain, the one unending question is why dying people consistently dream about an afterlife, and not just some wacky dream like we have the rest of the time.

I certainly do hope that NDEs are reflective of a larger afterlife, because most of the ones I've read about think very little of organized religion's view of the afterlife and end up reflecting the kind of infinite love, forgiveness, compassion that I'd expect from a deity.