A Better Way

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i forget who said this:

"Oh FINALLY it feels SO good to be a Democrat. I love being partisan :evil: "

:hmm:
 
Unfortunately I think the most vocal members of the right think anything short of total capitulation or at the very least silence is partisan, negative and irrelevant. That being said, the Democrats have just about lost me not due to their opposition, but with the tedious, idiotic, ball-less, disorganized, visionless, pandering and leaderless presentation.

What a weak fucking opposition. Right now I respect the Republican moderates infinitely more than the Democrat "leadership."
 
I think you'll see that Tim Kaine sure as hell isn't "tedious, idiotic, ball-less, disorganized, visionless, pandering and leaderless." He's a different breed. Perfect? No, but at this stage in the game he actually won, something we Dems haven't been doing lately. There's a lot to learn from him.
 
I'll listen, but I'm not willing to take your word for it just yet. That being said, he is a state leader and not a national voice as of yet so is unimportant to me for now. Maybe he's the future. But he's not the present.
 
BonosSaint said:
I'll listen, but I'm not willing to take your word for it just yet. That being said, he is a state leader and not a national voice as of yet so is unimportant to me for now. Maybe he's the future. But he's not the present.
Click to expand...

I agree he's not a national voice, the frustrating thing is, and has been the last 6 years, the democrats haven't really had a national voice. That's no fault of Tim's, but perhaps he can help. I hope he is the future, he's got a lot of potential (and I want to work for him for several years to come!). Keep an open mind as you watch tonight. If he doesn't impress you I'm sorry, but I'm damn proud to have worked for him and to know him, and I'll always support him as long as he stays true to himself (as corny as that sounds)
 
Oh, my mind's always open. I won't be making any decision on him tonight however. But I'll keep an eye on him over the long haul. I used to be a Young Democrat myself.:wink:
 
:lol:

My hope for him is he'll run for senate after his term as gov. Right now in VA we've got to defeat George Allen, then get Gov. Warner elected in '08, then Kaine's time will come. The reasons he was chosen this year are a) He actually won a race in a red state (and he's a liberal by VA standards) b) The dems don't want to pick a "favorite" for '08 to make the speech as of now c) They wanted someone outside congress. Seems smart to me :shrug:
 
Usual strategy to bring in a newcomer. Not a bad idea to bring in a moderate. Maybe your Warner will do well. An up and comer who doesn't have Hilary's baggage. I just get tired of politician's words. I rarely listen to the speeches. I just watch where they take their fights, what real ideas they have, and what compromises I think they will make, whether I see their integrity at least balancing out their political pandering. You know beyond the rhetoric. As a campaign worker, I heard a lot of speeches. I'm immune.
 
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I'm gonna see Gov. Kaine and Ed Rendell a week from saturday actually...Rendell's coming as a keynote speaker to a big fundraising dinner. I'm not really looking forward to seeing him, as in years past when the speakers have been Joe Biden, Kerry/Edwards/Clark/Sharpton, Kerry, etc. Oh well, I'll just chat it up with Gov. Kaine the way I usually do :shrug:
 
Oh, dear God. Rendell. He's my governor. The governor who thinks slots are the answers to PA's financial problems and thought a really good budget cut was libraries, who signed off on a midnight raid by the state legislature to raise their salaries in the dark of the night (PS, voter revolt repealed the legislation, took down a sitting judge and caused several long term legislators to resign to spend more time with their families. Poor girl.
 
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As I said, I'm not too thrilled about seeing Rendell speak, he doesn't impress me much :shrug:

Kaine has surprisingly impressed me...when I first met him several years ago I was really impressed about how he was one on one, but was skeptical about what he would have to offer. He continually steps up and puts smart plans on the table, which is what he's doing now as governor. He's gotten off to a great start, I hope he can keep it up the next 4 years :up:
 
Ah yes...Virginia. I find whatever its politicans say to be overshadowed by its virulent homophobia. I see Virginia now has its eyes on banning gay-straight alliances in high schools, in addition to Kaine lending his support to banning same-sex marriage (while nitpicking on the details of how to ban it).

Well, it's not as if I'm not used to bigotry from supposed American "liberals." Maybe the best way of all would be for the Democratic Party to disband and make room for an actual opposition party in this country. I'm not impressed with them so far.

Melon
 
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:shrug:

That is one area where I disagree with him...the ban on gay marriage...and I'm going to let him know that. Melon-I plan to fight the amendment as much as possible. The key will be to drive out the youth vote, they're more likely to go out and vote on an issue as opposed to a candidate. We'll see how it goes in November.
 
Democrats have been stupid for so long that its not even funny. These "morality crusades" for the last 30 years have always been about diverting attention away from the failures of politicians. Anytime I see another resumption of the "flag burning amendment" debate, I know they're avoiding something. And goddamn...I wanted to smack Hillary Clinton for falling for it recently.

I know exactly what the Democrats are thinking: they regret ever having supported the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 60s. Sure, now it's a good thing to support since it's already 40 years too late, but they remember all the Southern Democrats who defected to the Republican Party as a result of it and all the elections they've lost since because of it. While I would have said, "Good riddance to you, Strom Thurmond," the Democrats have since been reluctant to support minority rights. But you know what they don't get through their thick skulls? The morality zealots are never going to vote Democratic. If they ever vote Democratic, it will be because they have an actual economic platform. The bigot vote will always vote Republican, and trying to appeal to that base will always end in defeat. When you're talking about people who believe that Hillary Clinton is a lesbian, despite being married to a man, you know you're not dealing with rational thinkers here. However, by trying to hug the center by being what I'd call "quasi-bigots," all they do is effectively make a lot of more liberal people not want to vote at all.

I will grudgingly vote in future elections, if only to continue my right to bitch, but I know a lot of people won't be as principled as I. All the fancy rhetoric in the world will be meaningless if you don't have the principles to back it up. And Kaine and Warner are fools if they think otherwise.

Melon
 
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melon said:


I know exactly what the Democrats are thinking: they regret ever having supported the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 60s.
Melon
Click to expand...

:ohmy:

I absolutely cannot allow you to get away with this statement. I don't know what has made you so bitter but this is going way too far. I don't even know where to begin to respond...give me some time to collect my thoughts and I'll post.
 
U2democrat said:
:ohmy:

I absolutely cannot allow you to get away with this statement. I don't know what has made you so bitter but this is going way too far. I don't even know where to begin to respond...give me some time to collect my thoughts and I'll post.
Click to expand...

Yes, I push the envelope and say what has been left unsaid. And, yes, they will publically support their actions during the 1960s, if only to save face and only because history has been on their side since. But they know that it has been a pyrrhic victory. Strom Thurmond, after he left the Democratic Party in 1964 and before his Republican conversion in favor of civil rights in the 1970s, did more to change the South's voting patterns than anyone else before him. Whether it is conscious or not, the Democratic Party has taken notice and is not courageous enough to take tough, but necessary stances anymore.

Anyway, regardless, if more Democrats were like you, I think I'd actually love the party again. So don't lose hope as I have. It would be a pity.

Melon
 
What I don't like about Kaine or Warner for that matter is that to me, they're a bunch of the same ol' same ol'. They're like Democrats trying to look like Republicans so that God forbid they should offend. Why would any left-leaning person vote for them? Because they might be marginally less offensive than a Republican? No, sorry. Until the Democrats settle on a clear and strong agenda of their own, I wouldn't vote for them, even if I could. Get a spine, grow some balls, get your own policies, because as much as I may disagree with Ralph Nader, he's right in that the current Democratic leadership is exactly the same as the Reps except they take marching orders from different corporations. Very little progressive vision among them and what little there is, is stifled immediately so as to find some kind of watered down middle ground that is unoffensive, but sure as hell won't inspire people to vote either.
 
Yes I agree with Anitram here.

If Kaine's ALREADY appealing to the 'moderate centre' what will he be like in 10 years?

They should have someone like John Conyers up there creating a bit of aggro.

The far right cabal that stole the 2000 and possibly the 2004 elections made NO attempt to appeal to the centre.

So why the hell should the opposition do it?
 
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The Dems should be absolutely hammering the Repubs on NUMEROUS issues - from the Iraq War to the Fitzgerald investigation to the corruption scandals, etc, etc.

This bullshit of 'let's all be nice Dems and appeal to the moderate centre' is just a cop out.
 
U2democrat said:


:ohmy:

I absolutely cannot allow you to get away with this statement. I don't know what has made you so bitter but this is going way too far. I don't even know where to begin to respond...give me some time to collect my thoughts and I'll post.
Click to expand...

It is not really fair to take the first part of the post out of context with the rest.



Melon is right, there are many working class folks, particularly in the South, that left the Dem Party over civil rights. The GOP call it their Southern Strategy.
It has given the GOP a leg up in Electoral votes and Senates races.
I understand what Kaine is trying to do.
Bring a few back into the fold.
But, Melon is right the GOP has a lock on the intolerant.
 
financeguy said:
The Dems should be absolutely hammering the Repubs on NUMEROUS issues - from the Iraq War to the Fitzgerald investigation to the corruption scandals, etc, etc.

This bullshit of 'let's all be nice Dems and appeal to the moderate centre' is just a cop out.
Click to expand...

I just finished listening to Kaine's response. It sounded like a challenger in a Republican primary.

The "better way" presented in the speech didn't go far. Too many non-sequetor responses to the problems posed.

How many people will be inspired by his call to service?
 
NOT ME! I was pissed off! I liked some things he said, but it is what he didn't say that bothered me. They should absolutely be beating the shit out of bush and the republicans right now, but are too scared. They just can't stand up for themselves!!
 
Being seen as the Party for Minorities does have its electoral downfalls. On the other hand, one could argue that the Republicans themselves have done a bang-up job of making what is, in fact, a minority agenda seem mainstream, so why can't the Democrats pull off the same.

Originally posted by melon
If they ever vote Democratic, it will be because they have an actual economic platform.
Click to expand...
:up:
 
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