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Old 09-09-2002, 01:11 PM   #101
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You know I rarely speak up, but I'm always lurkin.

And now is the time for me to post, before I head off to work.

I have read every post in this thread and sharky's really touched me. He's right, nobody knows the pain of what it's like to actually have seen the towers collapse, knowing there's people inside, firsthand. We all watched it on our television, and some of us tried to help where we could. But we'll never know. My condolences to sharky - I can't begin to imagine what horrors you've seen first hand, this year must have been so painful.

What gets me though, is the original post starting this thread. I know everyone and their grandmother has put in their 2 cents already, but I feel compelled to do so as well. I *think* I get what Ravenstar meant to say, but it came across all wrong. What was said was insensitive, callous, immature, and overall... a dumbass thing to say especially given that the year anniversary is so close. To trivialize the brutal loss of innocent lives in a cowardly attack by stating it was just "buildings and stuff" is deplorable. It's dusgusting. The lives lost that day - those people had fuck all to do with foreign policy!!! They were at work, probably wondering what they were going to have for dinner that night, or probably wondering if they were going to make it home in time to tuck their children into bed.

My first thought was why hasn't this thread been closed? Then I realized that people sometimes need to see the parade of idiocy that haunts this planet from time to time. The initial post in this thread is a perfect example of such idiocy. I'm not saying Ravenstar is an idiot - she seems quite levelheaded judging from what I've read in the past. But the initial statement and her statements thereafter, comparing the "lucky" lives of Americans to those "unlucky" souls in Africa... Jeezus. Words can't descibe the sheer idiocy being spewed. I'm still seething and I just got done reading all 7 pages worth. I can barely string a sentence together given my anger.

A formal apology from Ravenstar should be in order. If only to save face.
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Old 09-09-2002, 01:18 PM   #102
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note to all mods and elvis : people of age less than 16 shouldnt be allowed in FYM

or better still, an iq of more than 120-130 should be the qualification to post in FYM for a meaningful and logical debate.

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Old 09-09-2002, 01:43 PM   #103
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From my european point of view it's unbelievable to read a thread like this in a US based forum

From my personal point of view it just makes me sick. And very sad.

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Old 09-09-2002, 02:03 PM   #104
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Right;

First off, I think Raven Star is getting a lot of bad rap over something she didn't phrase too well (or, as some would say, rather appalingly, if perhaps callously).

From being called sub-human and sick to being intellectually impaired (incidentally, AcrobatMan, if we did follow your recommendations, FYM would be a very quiet place) and to even having someone calling her religion as 'ridiculous'. Now, that really isn't neccessary, is it? Raven Star has been very careful and logical in her explanations of her beliefs in the past, in fact one of the best threads I've ever read was the one where she described Satanism in clear and concise DETAIL.

If you missed it, what a pity, you would have realised that calling a person's religion ridiculous, no matter how obscure and esoteric it is to you, is not to be done lightly. No matter how distasteful you may find this thread, there are no grounds to start naming a person's religion or the people who practice it as 'ridiculous'. I find this comment as distasteful as the other ones accused of being such.

Back to the thread...

Yes, the phrasing could have been a lot better, however, I could still see her point. Needless to say, the tragedy of the September 11th was truly horrific. I didn't know anyone in the towers, though I did have a friend who himself knew two people who had perished. Did I cry on the day? I'm sorry, but I did not. I don't think it makes me heartless, it makes me what I am; not personally or directly involved with such a tragedy.

Do I think it equally tragic and horrific today? Yes.
Is it wise to forget such a tragedy? Of course not.
Is it easier for me to distance myself emotionally and NOT feel such emotions rise within me when I see a thread rabout it? Definately.

Raven Star is one of a number of people in this forum who aren't American and who didn't have proximity to such a tragedy, and it must be a realised fact that, for such a group, the tragedy holds different implications and different emotions.

3,000 people dying in one day is more 'impressive' than the dozens of people who would be killed at every IRA terrorist attack that has ever happened in London, but 'I' feel the IRA tragedy more. And its not just the IRA, its the ETA attacks in Spain - which HAVE brought personal tragedy to me, its the Chiapa terrorists STILL going on and destroying the South of Mexico - where my mother is from, its the Albanian terrorist attacks that still go on in Macedonia (where my ex-fiance came from), but are never heard of . These are my tragedies, and to me they involve me more emotionally.

This particular tragedy was also even more traumatic because of the sheer loss of life in one awful blow - I don't presume to even fathom how Americans, and those who were directly affected by the event, can cope with it. I don't talk about it, because inevitably one runs the risk of trivializing such atrocities.

My point is, there are other atrocities that other people are more emotionally involved with. There are other countries, most in fact, who have been dealing with terrorism for a much longer period of time, and who have lived in fear long before. I am NOT comparing tragedies and awarding brownie points to who's is the more tragic, I'm merely pointing out that to some - to MOST - people of the world, September the 11th does not hold the same importance as it does for Americans.

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Old 09-09-2002, 04:12 PM   #105
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Thank you, Anthony.
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Old 09-09-2002, 04:19 PM   #106
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few resposes to a few people

mad-- the show you watched is exactly what I think is wrong with 9/11. Was it inspirational? Ok. Did it tell a story? sure. But why did it have to become a TV movie to entertain people? this is the kind of coverage I'm against.

cloud-- you used a word to describe the media coverage at times that I totally agreed with: tasteless. I'm a journalist who feels that way too!

mistress-- thanks for the words. and btw, you're not the only one to mistake me for a guy. I really need to get a more feminine name.

To the rest of you, say what you want about this thread being shut down etc. but I think this discussion, while off topic at times, has been interesting.
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Old 09-09-2002, 04:25 PM   #107
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Quote:
. but I think this discussion, while off topic at times, has been interesting.




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Old 09-09-2002, 04:26 PM   #108
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Raven Star, while I kinda sorta get what you implied in your first post I think that your timing (and your wording) may have been a little off.

Yes, 9/11 rememberance is everywhere, especially in the media and especially NOW. While I can't stand seeing all the merchandise myself, such as hats and t-shirts and bumper stickers, I DO NOT think that 9/11 is the most over-rated thing ever.

I'm a New Yorker, but more importantly I'm an American. And without trying to sound like I'm accusing you of being insensitive, I for one know that I cannot fathom the horrendous act of murder that was commited on that day.
There are people on the other side of the planet that hate us so much and we have no idea why, and they are commited to bringing us down because we are, in their eyes, "the forces of evil".

When I see media footage of that day, or signs saying "We will never forget" I do not feel contempt or "enough already". Rather I feel sadness, much sadness, for the fact that there could be so much hatred in this world.
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Old 09-09-2002, 04:29 PM   #109
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The reason so many people hate America? I think it's cause America like to stick it's nose in other peopes business and dont realise that they arent helping.
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Old 09-09-2002, 04:32 PM   #110
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Yes Raven Star, you have a point about that, and sometimes I feel the same way myself.

But, it certainly does not justify what happend to us, and what may happen in the future, now does it????
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Old 09-09-2002, 04:33 PM   #111
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Quote:
There are people on the other side of the planet that hate us so much and we have no idea why
I think this is the problem that remains for most of us. People have suffered, people have wept, people have continued to die - and yet we have not understood.

No, I don't wish to generalize; I think that for each and every person, some form of personal evolution mast have taken place. However, generically, as an accumulation under nations, I think the case as highlighted by u2loopy may still be the case.

We have not yet understood fully, and yet here we are ready to invade another country.

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Old 09-09-2002, 04:55 PM   #112
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wow this thread has taken off- I cant believe how many posts have been put into this thing and really when I read it all I am reminded as to how bad and how kind of futile these arguments or rather debates are in this place- I can see where Raven Star comes from, maybe that is because we are both not Americans. For many years I have seen and heard of the countless attrocities that have happened and are happening throughout the world- Cambodia, Madagascar, Mozambique, East Timor, The Solomon Islands to name just a few and what iritates me the most is why the attrocitiy that happened in America last year should get precedence over these other malicious events- is the US event more worse??? I dont know, I dont think it was, I do feel terribly sad that it happened and that innocent people have died- I have read countless articles on stories from brave civillians, fire-fighters etc, etc I know more about the logistics of this event, damn I even know the internal floor plan layout of the buildings- and this I guess is exactly the point, well for me it is, is why should we know so much, well we should know all of this, but we should also know all of the workings of the other events in the world- in my opinion neither should take preecedence over the other- I want the world to realise that there is more to the world than all that is American, other people of different races and creeds are dying and hurting and why is it that we get the same one event shoved down our face all of the time???? I am sickk of it, I feel for the people who were brave and those who lost loved ones, however I feel nothing for the media machines who believe that it is in my best interest to re-live these events when I know that there other events that should now be given such media coverage
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Old 09-09-2002, 07:03 PM   #113
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Anthony-
W/the loss OF ANY innocent HUMAN-LIFE..to shrug it off is BOTH INHUMANE and Sub-Human...

I think her motive was to-
1-Call out ppl making a profit on tradegy and I agree that is wrong



2-However to "shrug off" the taking of ANY INNOCENT LIFE -
-In the USA
or
Afganistan
or
Iraq
or

Austrailia
or
Canada makes me and nearly EVERYOTHER decent person angry.

And this is the point.

Peace
Out--
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Old 09-09-2002, 07:12 PM   #114
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Shrug Off?

I certainly did not shrug off any loss of life.

And I do not think it was her intention to, either. However, I may be wrong - I still am quite certain that 'I' did not shrug anything off.

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Old 09-09-2002, 08:02 PM   #115
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Re: Shrug Off?

DB9
Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
I certainly did not shrug off any loss of life.

And I do not think it was her intention to, either. However, I may be wrong - I still am quite certain that 'I' did not shrug anything off.

Ant.
No
Ant
You didnt.
Raven did.

This is what upset ppl here.

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Old 09-09-2002, 08:27 PM   #116
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Thanks for pointing that out, Diamond, but I did appreciate people's reasons for being upset.

RavenStar's point and intentions were somewhat the subject of a long and heated discussion, as you saw. However, others posted their opinion, to which she not only agreed with, but stated that those 'points' were the ones she was trying to make in the first place.

She even said at one point, 'God I suck at making points'.

She has made it quite clear, when she's had the opportunity to do so, that she hated the cynical merchandising of the entire ordeal and how she thought that some elements of 9/11 overshadowed other atrocities - this may be questionable. However, its a far cry from the seemingly callous and outright cruel image interpretations have made her appear to be.

She said it. Tried to say it again differently, and has made it reasonably clear that she did not intend to sound so 'questionable', at best.

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Old 09-09-2002, 09:15 PM   #117
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Just wanted to pop back into this thread. I went off on Ravenstar and indirectly implied that she was an idiot. I do apologize. That was wrong of me, and I should've either not posted, or at least waited until my anger subsided.

Anthony I think you gave a good, eloquent explanation of how "tragedies" are relative. Other tragedies and goings-on throughout the world are easy to overlook when there is something major going on in your backyard. For the past year it has been hard for many Americans, even the Americans who are well versed in world events, to look past the tragedy and backlash of Spetember 11. Terrorist acts the magnitude of 9-11 were an enormous shock to the people in the US, and it still is a shock, people are still sensitive and with the anniversary drawing near, some nerves are still raw. Like you said, it doesn't make what happened in NYC any more or less tragic than other acts of terror around the globe - the impact of what happened really is relative to the individual.

And sharky, sorry 'bout the gender mishap!
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Old 09-09-2002, 09:43 PM   #118
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all good sweeite!

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
2-However to "shrug off" the taking of ANY INNOCENT LIFE -
-In the USA
or
Afganistan
or
Iraq
or

Austrailia
or
Canada makes me and nearly EVERYOTHER decent person angry.

And this is the point.
Take note: diamond made sense. This IS the point. But there is a flaw with this. maybe I'm thinking too highly of some of us but overall I think the FYM folks are a pretty worldly informed group of people. And unfortunately, that doesn't reflect most Americans. To most Americans, there is no world outside the U.S. After 9/11, instead of waking up and saying "Hmm...there are alot of people that don't like Americans. I wonder why that is." they said "Those bastards! America! We're the best! Where's my flag?" to the point where people who were turban-wearing Hindu worshipping Indians were at the receiving end of hate crimes because they "looked muslim" [whatever the hell that means].

One of the things that is pissing me off the most is this requim that the Seattle Symphony Orchestra organized in which all these countries' symphonies are going to play this requim at 8:46am to remember the dead. I'm not trying to say one death is more important than another but where was the Seattle Symphony Orchestra when 10,000 people died in an earthquake in Turkey, where were they when bin Laden bombed American embassies in Africa? Does that not count because it was in a country most Americans hadn't heard of?

Its time America looked in the mirror and see what it has become. I love living in NYC because its diverse and while we may not all get along in the city, we all respect each other. In NYC, most of us don't care if you're a minority or if two men walk down the street holding each other's hand or kissing. And its sad to say but I don't think that can be said of some places in this country.

Loopy said she's a New Yorker but more importantly an American. After last September, I'm equally proud to be both.
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Old 09-09-2002, 10:48 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
all good sweeite!



Take note: diamond made sense. This IS the point. But there is a flaw with this. maybe I'm thinking too highly of some of us but overall I think the FYM folks are a pretty worldly informed group of people. And unfortunately, that doesn't reflect most Americans. To most Americans, there is no world outside the U.S. After 9/11, instead of waking up and saying "Hmm...there are alot of people that don't like Americans. I wonder why that is." they said "Those bastards! America! We're the best! Where's my flag?" to the point where people who were turban-wearing Hindu worshipping Indians were at the receiving end of hate crimes because they "looked muslim" [whatever the hell that means].

One of the things that is pissing me off the most is this requim that the Seattle Symphony Orchestra organized in which all these countries' symphonies are going to play this requim at 8:46am to remember the dead. I'm not trying to say one death is more important than another but where was the Seattle Symphony Orchestra when 10,000 people died in an earthquake in Turkey, where were they when bin Laden bombed American embassies in Africa? Does that not count because it was in a country most Americans hadn't heard of?

Its time America looked in the mirror and see what it has become. I love living in NYC because its diverse and while we may not all get along in the city, we all respect each other. In NYC, most of us don't care if you're a minority or if two men walk down the street holding each other's hand or kissing. And its sad to say but I don't think that can be said of some places in this country.

Loopy said she's a New Yorker but more importantly an American. After last September, I'm equally proud to be both.
Very well said Sharky. I completely understand what you are saying about alot of Americans not wondering "why" but instead were and still are saying "how dare you."

I also understand what you are saying about not seeing the world outside of the the US. I saw firsthand 2 instances of Hindus being singled out or harassed within one week of 9/11.

I saw one elderly Hindu man wearing a turban walk into a McDonald's and the whole place went quiet. He looked around like he wanted to cry and walked right back out the door. I wanted to yell at these people "he's a Hindu you idiots, do you ever read the papers or watch anything besides the Simpsons?" "Do you know the difference between a Hindu and a Muslim and if not, why?"

The second time was on the Saturday after 9/11 at an amusement park. There was a Hindu family of 8 or 9 poeple trying to enjoy themselves and all they got were stares and comments like "what are you doing here, go back where you came from." My sister and I got so disgusted by this, we finally walked up to them and told them we were sorry. I don't know if we were sorry for being American at that moment or sorry that a country that just lost 3000+ innocent people hadn't learned a thing about how to treat their fellow man, but we just felt like we had to say something.

Believe me, I am one American who has asked again and again, "why does everyone hate us." I know some of the reasons but I don't think alot of other American do, or at at the very least, they don't want to admit it.
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Old 09-09-2002, 11:02 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky and Bono's American Wife
the truth
!!!!

between what you both said, and the commercialism stemming from being able to make a huge profit with anything red, white, and blue, sums up the only things about 9/11 that piss me off. the worst part is, i'm sure this is what bin laden was hoping for all along. for us (america as a whole, certainly not anyone on the forum) to bury our head in the sand like an ostrich and not dare to think that, as for as horrible of a tragedy it was, that there may have been a lesson to be learnt.

i used to chat with a guy my age in pakistan back in 97/98. he was muslim, and it would've been interesting to hear what it's like now over there, and even his opinion on what happened.
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