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Old 09-16-2002, 08:34 AM   #1
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3 medstudents denied jobs

Just saw on the news how three muslim med-students were denied a job at their hospital because a lady "over-heard" them talking about "terra-plans".

The cops chased them down and then got a robot to inspect the car! They found nothing,

so now these three students who have been working towards this for so long are left hanging in the balance because some lady misheard them.

First of all, it's ridiculous to think that, if they were terrorists, they would discuss their business in a public restaurant. I could not believe it when I heard these stories.
IF they were white people discussing 9/11 all would be well, even if the white people were laughing about it, I bet you the cops would not do anything.

What I am beginning to see in North America is another "red scare", but obviously different - directed towards arabs and muslims. What I am seeing is the beginning of black listing and that sort of cold war activity.
My aunt is married to an arab and he came here to get a job, and nobody will hire him. He is very well qualified.

I hope we can stem the tide of this before it goes to far
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Old 09-16-2002, 09:16 AM   #2
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I read the same story this morning. In Europe this would be quite a scandal.

Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

The U.S.A. violating the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?
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Old 09-16-2002, 11:10 AM   #3
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to be fair, and for a little bit of a break from all the slagging that has been going on, lets not make America the focus of this.

Simply put, discuss the possibility of black listing in North America-
hell...all western countries for that matter!
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Old 09-16-2002, 11:17 AM   #4
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Yes, Jesus, ok *sigh* hope no one felt offended *double sigh*.
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Old 09-16-2002, 11:50 AM   #5
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If I'm not mistaken, I believe this group comprised:

1.) A man who was born in the United States to legal immigrants; that is, a "natural-born citizen";

2.) A man who is a naturalized citizen;

3.) A man who is holding a valid visa.

So let's recap: three men who are in this country legally, with (as I understand it) no previous criminal record, who are in fact studying to be *doctors*, were interrogated and searched with no more probable cause than something overheard in a restaurant--and, having been exonerated, are now being denied further employment?

And I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I have the right to be ignorant.
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Old 09-16-2002, 12:22 PM   #6
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Well, putting aside the interrogation aspect of it, it seems like it's the University Medical School that's in the wrong here, with respect to the EMPLOYMENT issue, and not necessarily "America".
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Old 09-16-2002, 01:00 PM   #7
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Ok, to clarify-- the hospital asked that they find an alternate place for their nine-week internship. The hospital said it received 100 anti-muslim emails and threats against the hospital. In the end, unfortunately, I think the hospital is justified in this case because they are putting the safety of its patients ahead of these three students. If people send emails threatening harm to hundreds of patients because three people are working there, the hospital has the make the decision about what to do.

Should they have had to made this decision in the first place? Absolutely not. But an ignorant woman heard the men talking about bringing down A CAR to drive, saw that they looked Muslim and thought they were talking about a building. And ignorant people are sending anti-Muslim emails and threats to the hospital.

I'm more pissed off about the ignorance of the people who sent these threatening emails than the hospital's decision.
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Old 09-16-2002, 01:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
Ok, to clarify-- the hospital asked that they find an alternate place for their nine-week internship. The hospital said it received 100 anti-muslim emails and threats against the hospital. In the end, unfortunately, I think the hospital is justified in this case because they are putting the safety of its patients ahead of these three students. If people send emails threatening harm to hundreds of patients because three people are working there, the hospital has the make the decision about what to do.

Should they have had to made this decision in the first place? Absolutely not. But an ignorant woman heard the men talking about bringing down A CAR to drive, saw that they looked Muslim and thought they were talking about a building. And ignorant people are sending anti-Muslim emails and threats to the hospital.

I'm more pissed off about the ignorance of the people who sent these threatening emails than the hospital's decision.
I agree...that is the root of the problem here!!
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Old 09-16-2002, 05:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
Well, putting aside the interrogation aspect of it, it seems like it's the University Medical School that's in the wrong here, with respect to the EMPLOYMENT issue, and not necessarily "America".
But I believe it signifies a problem with our culture. I did not use "America" to refer necessarily to the government, but rather with some of the prevailing attitudes of Americans in America in 2002.
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Old 09-16-2002, 05:35 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
Ok, to clarify-- the hospital asked that they find an alternate place for their nine-week internship. The hospital said it received 100 anti-muslim emails and threats against the hospital.
I think the hospital should have stood up to the ignorant racists who sent those emails, instead of pandering to their disgusting prejudices. We should fight against racism, not let racists dictate policy. Where next? If a hundred people decide they don't want Black people to be treated at that hospital, on receipt of their racist emails, will the administration agree? Will they then deny people medical treatment because of the colour of their skin? After all, they've denied people an education because of the colour of their skin.

And just out of interest, is there any action being taken against the racists who sent those threats? Because if three Muslim people can be dismissed from their jobs because some ignorant person thinks all Muslims are possible terrorists, then the racists who threatened that hospital should lose their jobs and a whole lot more.
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Old 09-16-2002, 06:05 PM   #11
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Yes this is happening in Australia too- not where I live as I dont live in a major city, in fact I think that the whole time that I have lived on the Sunshine Coast (which is a beach side city of 250 000 people, predominantly filled with anglo-celtic Australians ) I think I have seen maybe two women wearing a veil......anyway but in the big cities like Melbourne and Sydney where the multi-cultural scene is much more prevalent and those people who come to Australia from multi-cultural backgrounds tend to live, this is happening all of the time since Sept 11 and here in Australia it has been made worse due to a 'gang rape' by 14 young Lebaneese Muslims towards a couple of anglo-celtic Australian women- the main boy responsible for instigating the gang rape was given a record jail sentence of 55years and the issues that have been raised here is would the sentence of been as high if the issue of religion had not been involved, whilst I dont really feel it where I live, cause it is not a very high multi-cultural society, but when I read articles and see TV shows I can tell that these issues of religion are certainly starting to divide our country, and it aint good
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Old 09-16-2002, 09:49 PM   #12
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I agree, the hospital shouldn't have caved into the threats.
It could get messy.
Women's clinics have been dealing with this sort of thing for years, with all the threats against those who perform abortion, it's ridiculous that things like this still happen in 2002.
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Old 09-16-2002, 10:13 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
but rather with some of the prevailing attitudes of Americans in America in 2002.
Well, at least you limited it to "the prevailing attitudes of SOME Americans" (emphasis added).

I was down here in good ol' conservative Alabama at a football game Saturday night with about 80,000 other people. Sitting near us were 3 guys who appeared to be Middle Eastern, dressed in Alabama Crimson Tide gear like the rest of us. No one went and alerted security, no one called up Fox News or Tom Ridge, they were not ejected, detained, or chased down the Florida Turnpike. They just enjoyed the game like the rest of us; in fact, they left the stadium at the same time we did, when the last second ticked off the clock. I was hoping no one would get all nervous and make an awkward situation for them. No one did.

However, another fan (not Middle Eastern) was forced to move from his ticketed seat and threatened with jail time because he kept standing up and cheering for the team during nig plays. This was at a football game, not the opera.

Obvioulsy the incidents that make it to the media are usually those that require I-75 to be shut down. Remember also that a potentially dangerous cell has been succesfully diffused in Buffalo, New York.

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Old 09-16-2002, 10:15 PM   #14
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But what power does the hospital have? None. It can say it received these emails. It can say racism is wrong. But at the end of the day, it has to protect its patients and give them the best care possible.

How can a doctor provide care to a patient when he has to walk through a group of ignorant protesting Americans being loud in front of a hospital? How can a hospital treat its patients with cops outside to protect it?

I believe I said it in the 9/11 thread-- those of us who are interested in these issues are alot smarter than those who send hateful emails. There are some "Americans" who are stupid fucks, who feel its their patriotic duty to spit at anyone wearing a turban, deface a mosque or go on a killing spree shooting gas station attendants that "look muslim." There are some who would go through with their threats and harm that hospital no matter how many times the president of our country says terrorists, not Muslims, are our enemy.

In the end, the hospital has to protect its patients and is it worth trying to defend three interns when that money could be spent to save a person's life?
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Old 09-16-2002, 11:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama


Well, at least you limited it to "the prevailing attitudes of SOME Americans" (emphasis added).

I
I think I actually posted something like "some of the prevailing attitudes of Americans," but I'll be happy to qualify it further in the phrasing that Bama suggested. I don't want to stereotype Americans; hey, I'm still one of them.
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Old 09-17-2002, 02:13 PM   #16
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Here is how I see it:

Everyone in this situation is wrong.

First of all we as Americans should be embarrassed by the way the "authorities" handled this, but let me begin with who is wrong and why chronilogically.

1. The woman who 'reported' this was wrong. Supposedly she kept turning around and staring at the three students. She kept trying to overhear their conversation. Due to this the three students played a practical jke on her. She was rude. She should have minded her own business and stayed out of the affairs of the three students she obviously (and racially) found suspicious.

2. The three students were wrong. In a time when a country is at its weakest, and at a time when tempers are flairing (mostly racially motivated) the three students should have been wise enough to not joke about a terrorist attack. I understand they should not stand up for anything racially motivated, or even obnoxious or stupid people, but they should have confronted the woman directly and asked her to leave them alone.

3. The authorities were wrong in making such a stupid display of over-zealousness. They should have researched and investigated the 'threat' in more depth. If the cops are going to close 111 miles of highway every time there is a bomb-threat or other empty threat, we will be paralized as a country.

4. The press is clearly in the wrong once again for jumping to conclusions. They should never have allowed that ignorant woman to speak on television, they should have used prudence in the way they handled this, but hey it is the American press, they are lower than trash in my mind...
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Old 09-17-2002, 02:51 PM   #17
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The chicken or the egg..

Not too long ago there were anthrax scares all across the US. I remember hearing of one guy who pulled a similar stunt on his friend- sending white powder or something that could look like anthrax to his friend to scare him. Well, the FBI were called in and the guy had a huge mess on his hands, ended up in jail for his 'practical joke'.

I agree with everything Ouizy said- everyone was wrong in this situation. But I think these three should never have joked about a subject like this and I'd be surprised if they weren't punished for it in the same vein as the guy I mentioned above was.

Quote:
Originally posted by ouizy

2. The three students were wrong. In a time when a country is at its weakest, and at a time when tempers are flairing (mostly racially motivated) the three students should have been wise enough to not joke about a terrorist attack. I understand they should not stand up for anything racially motivated, or even obnoxious or stupid people, but they should have confronted the woman directly and asked her to leave them alone.
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Old 09-17-2002, 03:44 PM   #18
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People working in clinics where abortions are performed have to deal with this type of thing EVERYDAY, and it is largely ignored.
They have to walk by ppl protesting and threatening their patients on an ongoing basis, steps need to be taken to protect this industry across the board. It should not result in discouraging potential health care professionals from doing what they love, and the hospitols have just as much need to protect their workers, as well as patients.

It's like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
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Old 09-17-2002, 04:10 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
But what power does the hospital have? None. It can say it received these emails. It can say racism is wrong. But at the end of the day, it has to protect its patients and give them the best care possible.


It can say racism is wrong and we refuse to give in to racists. It can stand up to the pathetic individuals who are too ignorant to realise that you can't identify criminals by the colour of their skin. It can tell them that no matter how many racist emails they send and no matter how many threats they make, they will not get to dictate to the hospital who may work there, especially not when they want that judgement to be based on the colour of a person's skin.

Quote:
How can a doctor provide care to a patient when he has to walk through a group of ignorant protesting Americans being loud in front of a hospital? How can a hospital treat its patients with cops outside to protect it?


I don't know - you could always try asking a doctor who works at a family planning clinic and has to face anti-choice protestors on a daily basis. You could ask her how she feels going to work everyday with the knowledge that some extremists would happily blow up the building she works in and then celebrate the "innocent lives they saved." You could always ask her patients how they feel about being screamed at, having objects thrown at them, being spit at, when they arrive for an appointment.


Quote:
I believe I said it in the 9/11 thread-- those of us who are interested in these issues are alot smarter than those who send hateful emails. There are some "Americans" who are stupid fucks, who feel its their patriotic duty to spit at anyone wearing a turban, deface a mosque or go on a killing spree shooting gas station attendants that "look muslim." There are some who would go through with their threats and harm that hospital no matter how many times the president of our country says terrorists, not Muslims, are our enemy.


I'm glad that you and many others are smarter than that and I agree wholeheartedly with your condemnation of those "stupid fucks"

Quote:
In the end, the hospital has to protect its patients and is it worth trying to defend three interns when that money could be spent to save a person's life?
It also has a duty to protect its staff from racist abuse. If that hospital was threatened by "terrorism" (in the sense that word is used after September 11) would you object to money being spent to protect it? If the answer is no then I don't see why the answer should be any different when the threat comes from racist thugs and not terrorism.
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Old 09-17-2002, 04:27 PM   #20
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For the record, the 3 students have denied that they were joking about anything terrorist-related.

from the New York Times:

"Not once did we mention 9/11," Mr. Butt said. "Not once did we mention anything about 9/13, nor did we joke about anything of that sort. She was probably just eavesdropping on our conversation and might have heard a few key words that she misconstrued."
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