2016 US Presidential Election Thread XIV: May This Entertainment Never End

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by DaveC

as someone who is part of "the LGBT community", all i have to say is that you couldn't be more wrong about this.

Are you referring to me or are you referring to you?

[DaveC]

myself.

[martha]

Originally Posted by DaveC

as someone who is part of "the LGBT community", all i have to say is that you couldn't be more wrong about this, and i'm a bit surprised to hear you take such an exclusionary tone.

Oh c'mon. You guys are as monolithic as "the black community." Don't you have a spokesperson like they do?


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[LuckyNumber7]

I'm not sure what you mean by an "exclusionary tone," Dave. I'm not excluding anyone. I've explicitly said that everyone has their role in order to create social justice. But if you think it's exclusionary to believe that someone from a minority group has an inherent better understanding of themselves versus someone who is trying to help them, I don't really know what to say.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by martha

Oh c'mon. You guys are as monolithic as "the black community." Don't you have a spokesperson like they do?


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Seriously?

[BVS]

:facepalm:

LN7 you're backing yourself in a corner.
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[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by BVS

:facepalm:

LN7 you're backing yourself in a corner.
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K, fine, BVS has spoken. I'm clearly a racist, sexist, xenophobic, islamophobic, self hating homosexual because I chose this corner of the room and backed into it. You know, because my view on who is responsible for social justice is different than yours.

[cobl04]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

I'm not sure what you mean by an "exclusionary tone," Dave. I'm not excluding anyone. I've explicitly said that everyone has their role in order to create social justice. But if you think it's exclusionary to believe that someone from a minority group has an inherent better understanding of themselves versus someone who is trying to help them, I don't really know what to say.

Of course I don't have a better understanding and I have no idea where you got the idea that I was claiming to have a better understanding of a minority than the actual people themselves.

But you're doing the same thing - you're telling Muslims that they should take responsibility.

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

He never means to be patronizing, he just can't help it. Sort of like the last time when he told me I didn't know what I was talking about in regards to my own family origins

I never said anyone had to "prove" themselves. Yes, WE have a responsibility. Every community who wants it to change has a responsibility to do their part. The mistake you're making here is that much like gump, you think you can inherently speak for them because of your understanding of them. But you can't ever actually fully understand them, because you're not them. The best you can do is do your part. Everyone has a part, from a broad perspective.

That doesn't mean every individual. That means every general perspective. Your point about white people doesn't mean anything. White people are fully accepted by the majority because they are the majority.

I didn't see that, sorry.

But I am really struggling to comprehend what the actual heck you're talking about.

You said Muslims have a responsibility. Why do you think this? That's incredibly unfair.

[Axver]

Originally Posted by martha

Oh c'mon. You guys are as monolithic as "the black community." Don't you have a spokesperson like they do?

Yes, the spokesperson is LN7. And I now call on him to exercise this responsibility and denounce DaveC.

That's how this works, right?

[Diemen]

(Couple posts deleted. Let's quit with the personal sniping, please.)

[BoMac]

Originally Posted by mikal

78830273519483

Indeed.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by cobl04

Of course I don't have a better understanding and I have no idea where you got the idea that I was claiming to have a better understanding of a minority than the actual people themselves.



But you're doing the same thing - you're telling Muslims that they should take responsibility.







I didn't see that, sorry.



But I am really struggling to comprehend what the actual heck you're talking about.



You said Muslims have a responsibility. Why do you think this? That's incredibly unfair.

I wasn't saying you were claiming to have a better idea. I was simply saying that the discrepancy in understanding is why someone who gets dealt a minority stance in life has to speak for themselves.

I never said muslims should "take" responsibility for anything. I did say they have a responsibility [assumed to be to themselves]. A responsibility to educate us as to what Islam stands for. It's not unfair. Being in their position is unfair. Being treated poorly and unequally is unfair. Partaking in helping advance your social justice... it's not unfair if you can have a part in changing things and you don't try. But this isn't limited to just Islam. It's this way across the board, for any minority.

[cobl04]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

A responsibility to educate us as to what Islam stands for.

Well I disagree in the strongest possible terms. That's crap. It is not their responsibility to educate fucking idiots who are racist because they're ignorant.

If they WANT to do that, awesome.

But they don't have a responsibility to do so and I find that suggestion to be ridiculous.


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[Hawkmoon269]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

I wasn't saying you were claiming to have a better idea. I was simply saying that the discrepancy in understanding is why someone who gets dealt a minority stance in life has to speak for themselves.

I never said muslims should "take" responsibility for anything. I did say they have a responsibility [assumed to be to themselves]. A responsibility to educate us as to what Islam stands for. It's not unfair. Being in their position is unfair. Being treated poorly and unequally is unfair. Partaking in helping advance your social justice... it's not unfair if you can have a part in changing things and you don't try. But this isn't limited to just Islam. It's this way across the board, for any minority.

So... according to you, if I identify myself as part of the Mexican minority in the US, it is my responsibility to educate you that I'm not a rapist??

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by cobl04

It is not their responsibility to educate fucking idiots who are racist because they're ignorant.

There's also the fact that, as we've seen numerous times this election cycle alone (and in many other examples throughout history), a person can do everything imaginable to educate and explain the facts about themselves and their community until they're blue in the face...

...and there's still going to be people who will refuse even then to acknowledge what they're saying is true. Obama produced his birth certificate and that wasn't enough for people who refused to believe he was born here. A Muslim could highlight all the positive aspects of their faith and their community and somebody will still insist the majority of them are terrorists, or sympathetic to terrorists. A gay couple can extol the virtues of their loving decades-long relationship and there's still going to be people insisting gay people want to destroy the sanctity of marriage.

And so on and so forth.

There are people out there who, once properly educated, will acknowledge how misguided/ignorant their beliefs had been up to that point and work to change their attitudes for the better, of course. But for some people, it's a lost cause, and any facts or logic or rational thought just go in one ear and out the other.

[LemonMelon]

I've got to keep refreshing this thread to see all the good stuff before it's gone.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by Hawkmoon269

So... according to you, if I identify myself as part of the Mexican minority in the US, it is my responsibility to educate you that I'm not a rapist??

Definitely not what I was saying. At all.

[Kieran McConville]

Somewhat of a tangent here I admit, but people could also trouble themselves to read a book every now and then, and realise that there is no single simple thing that 'Islam' stands for. That sort of thinking might have sway with a highly centralised institution like the Roman Catholic Church, but far less so given the way that Islam has historically developed. I'm not getting into the more base 'muslim=terrorist' stuff, which is beneath contempt, and immune to any education campaign where those who want to believe it are concerned.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by cobl04

Well I disagree in the strongest possible terms. That's crap. It is not their responsibility to educate fucking idiots who are racist because they're ignorant.

If they WANT to do that, awesome.

But they don't have a responsibility to do so and I find that suggestion to be ridiculous.


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You're being very specific for a rather broad statement. It's not just "fucking idiots who are racist." It's everyone who isn't Muslim.

Look, we could go at this for days. I had a bunch more typed up in this response, but I think we should probably try to wrap this one up because either I'm not saying it clear enough, or seeing it from my perspective is simply out of the discussion. Let's just move on.

[martha]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

Seriously?

Yes.

 

WTF

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