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Old 04-20-2016, 07:10 PM   #981
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Again, this line of thinking is just completely wrong. Clinton can't move any legislation that the left finds dear to their hearts until Republicans are out of congress. There's no compromise legislation when the right won't even budge an inch.
Which is why Clinton is making efforts in reclaiming the House and Senate. Whereas Sanders is doing not much and is even railing against the efforts of Clinton and the Democratic Party to try. Yes, I'm talking about the fundraisers she's having for the Democratic Party and whoever will be the nominee for them (which is most likely Clinton). You need a political infrastructure (which costs money) to get the votes. And to get legislation passed into law, you need other politicians too who support you. You can't do it on your own, which sometimes seems like something Sanders is not aware of (or not willing to accept).
Hence, why I think that Clinton is a better candidate than Sanders. Though for the fate of the rest of the world I would also hope that Sanders wins the general election, should he gets nominated.
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:20 PM   #982
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but is it our job to fix their wrongdoing, though?

Where on earth did I say that?

You can't just be anti-Clinton for the sake of being anti-Clinton. Not everything she does is automatically evil or wrong. I'm liking watching our relationship with terrorist harboring Wahhabi Saudis crumble. I hope that we find a healthy relationship with the Iranians in the process.
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:29 PM   #983
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This just feels hopeless. It's all or nothing with you it seems, if you can't have the full progressive agenda passed, then nothing is good enough.

We don't operate that way. Obama had the public option in the ACA to start and had a majority in both houses, and yet it was stripped out. He couldn't even get what was the closest thing to Universal Healthcare passed within his own party. Why would Bernie succeed? Especially when he's been an Independent his whole career?
It's not "all or nothing" for me. It's the fact that Clinton supporters argue that she can get things done when she truly can't with a Republican House. It's nothing or nothing, really, but I would rather have the person on the far left being the one to have no legislative accomplishments in office.

My argument for Sanders is that there would be "more" even if his positions were further to the left. He'd have more people marching in the streets to protect abortion rights or raise the minimum wage and thus there would be more pressure on House Republicans to cave, even if it was just a small increase in the minimum wage, for example. The movement could certainly help although, in essence, you still probably would have almost no success with the current dimwits in congress.

The big irony in Clinton and her supporters calling Bernie a fantasist is that the biggest fantasy of all is the belief from her camp that she can actually accomplish anything through congress while she's President. We've already seen the wall they've put up against Obama, so why exactly would things suddenly change?

At least Sanders has a plan to have millions of politically active people to try and accomplish his goals. Clinton isn't going to call for marches or phone-banking of Republican House members. She's just going to get her party to introduce some half-assed legislation that Paul Ryan will refuse to take to the floor and then she'll point fingers.
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:34 PM   #984
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Which is why Clinton is making efforts in reclaiming the House and Senate.
I don't know if you're aware of the intricacies of the current House situation, but it's literally impossible for Democrats to take it back given all the gerrymandering that has gone on...even Clinton's own campaign team dialed back the expectation of reclaiming the House months and months ago and it's kind of sad that they actually ever believed they could accomplish the task.

But that "leak" from insiders around her talking about her wanting to win back Congress exposes exactly why she wants to have a Democratic House...because without it, the President is resigned to accomplish nothing of major importance. Clinton knows this and I'm certain she doesn't expect to be able to get us the next step on health care or Wall Street regulation (as if she'd even bother with that one) while Republicans control the House.
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:41 PM   #985
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I just like that you're going to waste your vote because Bernie didn't get the nomination.

Yes, a two party system blows. Yes, Bernie is ideologically closer to my views than Clinton. But let's be realistic here - and I'm not just preaching from the Land of Instant Runoffs and Honey without an appreciation of voting in a system that doesn't allow you to give preferences. I suck it up when I vote in New Zealand and vote Labour on the half of the ballot that is first past the post (for local seats), even though I prefer the Greens (and vote for them on the party list half, because thank fuck for Mixed Member Proportional). There's no way in hell the Green candidate is even going to be competitive, let alone be victorious, and the risk of splitting the left vote and letting a right-wing candidate win is unconscionable to me. Same principle here. A vote that splits the American left is a vote for Trump/Cruz/Fuckwaddle McShittery.
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:45 PM   #986
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I'm not particularly fussed about Sanders losing, but the apologism for Hillary, hoo boy ...

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wait so if you guys support Hillary, are you guys okay with she being kinda hawkish in Middle East? i just wonder
It goes further than just the Middle East, and I'm not necessarily talking military intervention.
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Old 04-20-2016, 10:41 PM   #987
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isn't she supporting wars (or interventions) in Syria and Libya?

Also, she's supporting current Israel gov't, that's kinda insane.
She's whatever they want her to be
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Old 04-20-2016, 10:59 PM   #988
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She's whatever they want her to be
I want her to be liberal. is that too much to ask?
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Old 04-20-2016, 11:00 PM   #989
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I want her to be liberal. is that too much to ask?
Well, she's a liberal. Maybe a yes woman, but a liberal for sure.
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Old 04-20-2016, 11:07 PM   #990
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I want her to be liberal. is that too much to ask?
I've always felt she was the very definition of liberal.
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Old 04-20-2016, 11:17 PM   #991
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I want her to be liberal. is that too much to ask?

But the far right thinks she'll push the "progressive agenda" more than Bern would


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Old 04-20-2016, 11:29 PM   #992
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I want her to be liberal. is that too much to ask?


I get that we want candidates to reflect our values and priorities, but don't we vote for the candidate who "best" reflects them? Voting is a zero-sun game. If you're not voting for Clinton in the fall you're voting for Trump, even if you don't vote at all. I recognize not voting as a form of protest, and that's fine, but don't be under any illusions that you haven't helped some else get elected.

We don't always get exactly what we want. Sometimes we go with the least worst option. A vote is not rare and precious. It's a right, and it's a tool. And that's it.
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Old 04-20-2016, 11:59 PM   #993
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If you're not voting for Clinton in the fall you're voting for Trump, even if you don't vote at all.

I entirely disagree and think this argument is such a logical fallacy. He doesn't have an obligation to vote for a democratic candidate solely based upon the fact that the republican candidate sucks. Nor is he "voting for Donald Trump." This is not a good argument, and undermines someone's right to not vote.

If he doesn't like Hilary Clinton, fine. Explain to him why voting for Clinton is still voting for a lot of what he supports. But don't draw that card... there's several possible outcomes of his vote, one including him actually voting for Trump due to his distaste for Clinton. As a simple form of statistics, he has never supported Clinton and continues not to support Clinton. The only individuals who are a "vote for trump" are the individuals who agree to support Clinton and do not vote.
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Old 04-21-2016, 02:28 AM   #994
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Then you have to throw in the Electoral College. I, for example, live in California which is arguably the hardest state in the union to flip red for Republicans. There's a handful that are more liberal, but their populations are far, far smaller and therefore it would take a lot less time and money to flip, say, a few hundred thousand votes there instead of millions upon millions here. Any scenario where Clinton is within range of losing California to someone like Trump or Cruz means she's already lost the election.
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Old 04-21-2016, 02:33 AM   #995
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It doesn't have to even be that complex. There's nothing fair about saying "you not willing to vote for the candidate that I want to win is the same as you voting for the candidate neither of us want to win." That's just not true.
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Old 04-21-2016, 04:09 AM   #996
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It's now at a point where the Democratic candidacy is more entertaining than the Republican one. I did not think that would happen. It's not because of Hillary or Bernie themselves, it's the fighting between Hillary supporters and Bernie supporters. It is hilariously pathetic. Trump must be absolutely laughing himself to sleep.
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Old 04-21-2016, 04:41 AM   #997
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It's now at a point where the Democratic candidacy is more entertaining than the Republican one. I did not think that would happen. It's not because of Hillary or Bernie themselves, it's the fighting between Hillary supporters and Bernie supporters. It is hilariously pathetic. Trump must be absolutely laughing himself to sleep.
Fucking seriously.

I now read this thread for comedy.
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Old 04-21-2016, 04:43 AM   #998
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Fucking seriously.

I now read this thread for comedy.
I think i should do that too.
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Old 04-21-2016, 05:42 AM   #999
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It's now at a point where the Democratic candidacy is more entertaining than the Republican one. I did not think that would happen. It's not because of Hillary or Bernie themselves, it's the fighting between Hillary supporters and Bernie supporters. It is hilariously pathetic. Trump must be absolutely laughing himself to sleep.
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Fucking seriously.

I now read this thread for comedy.
Really, guys?
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Old 04-21-2016, 05:48 AM   #1000
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Really, guys?
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