2016 US Presidential Election Thread Part XI - Page 30 - U2 Feedback

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Old 07-29-2016, 09:09 AM   #581
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While I'm uncomfortable with Obama's heavy use of drone strikes (which we've discussed separately and is obviously a complicated issue), I'm very turned off by Hillary's tendency to embrace aggressive foreign policy. She's certainly more right-wing on that front than Obama. There is a reason a lot of prominent neoconservatives are behind her, and it's because they consider her one of them in the arena of foreign policy.

BMP's attacks on HRC are largely nonsense, however. He seems to stray away from the actual negatives of Clinton regularly (aside from her economic policies, but he only really scratches the surface on the actual issues involved there), opting instead to get really fucking upset that it took her slightly longer to get on board with gay marriage than it took Barack Obama.
These are genuine criticisms, but I don't think they answer the question about the Hillary-being-the-devil narrative. And I think most of it comes from the 1990s, in a time when partisan media was being consolidated (across the ideological spectrum), and she became the target of attacks for everything that was wrong with liberal America.
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Old 07-29-2016, 10:47 AM   #582
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My point is that there is an actual case to be made that Hillary Clinton is a dangerous candidate, and almost everyone who is calling her dangerous is doing it for totally the wrong reasons.
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Old 07-29-2016, 10:54 AM   #583
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This guy is way more articulate about Bernie Sanders vs. Hillary Clinton than I think most in here (including myself) have been:

This trucker makes the best argument for Bernie or Bust - Vox

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Bill Clinton, the only reason he was successful in getting stuff pushed through Congress is that he made so many concessions to the right he basically was a Republican. I’ve read some articles that Bill Clinton was ready to push privatization of Social Security through in ‘99 and the only thing that stopped him was a blow job from an intern. [The Cato Institute basically agrees.]

I just feel like the Clintons have betrayed me over and over. I read a book about the Clinton years and how the liberal class just sold out the middle class, and Clinton was a big part of that. Living through these things, I remember when they said, "We’ll reform welfare" and they did that by taking millions of single women off of food stamps with no way to feed their children. Then they started the "three strikes and you’re out" policy, and it put a generation of black men in jail.

Clinton got rid of Glass-Steagall and after that we fell apart. We lost our jobs in the recession. We lost our homes, and after that they bailed out the bankers and gave them trillions of dollars so they could keep their bonuses while the working man hasn’t gotten a raise in 25 years. And the elite give themselves money and pat themselves on the back.

...

If she wins, she’ll be back in the bubble again. She’s out there saying whatever she needs to say right now, sure. But we’ve seen the reality of a Clinton presidency; it wasn’t as rosy as it was portrayed to be.

I see her taking money from Goldman Sachs and the banks and the pharmaceutical companies. And Clinton was on the board of Walmart. The Clinton Foundation — my god.

I find it hard to believe she’ll do anything for me after taking all this money from these special interest groups. Why will she turn on those people when it’s so easy to turn on us?

...

I know Donald Trump will appoint worse judges. I would never vote for him. I’m just trying to imagine either of them being president, and all I see is them as puppets for the bankers and the elites pulling the strings behind the scenes.
I understand that a lot of what's being talked about is about Bill Clinton's presidency, but it's a thoughtful take regardless.
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Old 07-29-2016, 11:14 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
This guy is way more articulate about Bernie Sanders vs. Hillary Clinton than I think most in here (including myself) have been:

This trucker makes the best argument for Bernie or Bust - Vox



I understand that a lot of what's being talked about is about Bill Clinton's presidency, but it's a thoughtful take regardless.
I don't think this is thoughtful at all. It is the same senseless parroting we've had to endure for many months now.
First Bill Clinton is Bill Clinton. Not Hillary. Second, those years of Bill Clintons, the country was at a much different place. The electorate was backing far more conservative agendas, and to even have a chance, Bill had to be a right leaning Democrat.

She is a different person in a different time. I think its sad that people cant believe that maybe through her experience over the years, living with both good and bad decisions, that she has actually learned a damned thing or two and actually now has a much more real understanding of why not to make those mistakes again.
Now that the Democratic party is leaning much more left, She understands that she is there to represent the people who elect her, and she has shown this by backing the most progressive agenda in Democratic history.

And I'm sorry, but the whole Goldman Sachs speeches wreaks of sexism. She was NOT in office. She had every right to go out and speak and make just as much money as any other man with her background would make.
She got paid hundreds of thousands speaking to Universities and non-financial institutions as well.
And after all that money, what has she done to prove that she does any favors for wall street or big banks?
Coming out this campaign with the most comprehensive plan to regulate them? Pushing through Dodd Frank?
Somehow Sanders who actually voted for deregulation of credit default swaps, and voted for weakening credit card regs, is the champion of the little guy. But if Hillary had made those votes, she would be credited with single-handedly bringing the crash of 08.
Bernie voted for the crime bill, But hillary who didn't is the one that has "imprisoned a generation of black people"
It's just stunning delusion.
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Old 07-29-2016, 11:17 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
My point is that there is an actual case to be made that Hillary Clinton is a dangerous candidate, and almost everyone who is calling her dangerous is doing it for totally the wrong reasons.
There is a genuinely useful discussion to be had on Hillary as a dangerous candidate (to the point that I don't see a substantial difference between her and you-know-who aside from rhetoric), which I think a lot of her supporters may be unaware of. I would like to contribute some things to it tomorrow.
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Old 07-29-2016, 11:46 AM   #586
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Somehow Sanders who actually voted for deregulation of credit default swaps, and voted for weakening credit card regs, is the champion of the little guy. But if Hillary had made those votes, she would be credited with single-handedly bringing the crash of 08.
Bernie voted for the crime bill, But hillary who didn't is the one that has "imprisoned a generation of black people"
It's just stunning delusion.
Exactly.
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Old 07-29-2016, 12:04 PM   #587
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If Hillary is blamed for the conservatism of Bill's domestic policy (which I don't agree with, womanfish makes a good case about), shouldn't she be praised for the internationalism of his foreign policy as well? It's like people pick and choose the issues to complain about very selectively.

Bill ran as a southern Democrat 4 years after the end of the Reagan presidency.

Hillary runs as a former New York Senator and Secretary of State for the most internationalist and liberal President in half a century.
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Old 07-29-2016, 12:06 PM   #588
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Does Hillary have any substantial differences in her economic policy from Bill? I'm genuinely curious.
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Old 07-29-2016, 02:33 PM   #589
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I've literally brought up almost every single point in the trucker's opinion that PhilsFan posted. But I guess those aren't valid points if they come from me...at this point, if some people can't realize why the history of the Clintons makes so many on the left fearful, then there's no point in even continuing the discussion. Boiled down to its essence, it's decades of policies and positions that liberals absolutely loathed.

After all, there's a reason nearly three million people voted Nader in 2000.
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Old 07-29-2016, 02:46 PM   #590
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And I'm sorry, but the whole Goldman Sachs speeches wreaks of sexism. She was NOT in office. She had every right to go out and speak and make just as much money as any other man with her background would make.
Seriously, wtf? You don't think liberals will hold accountable anybody that does that shit? Because we certainly will.

The problem isn't that she was a woman taking money from Goldman Sachs, it's that she was taking money from Goldman Sachs.
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Old 07-29-2016, 02:54 PM   #591
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I've literally brought up almost every single point in the trucker's opinion that PhilsFan posted. But I guess those aren't valid points if they come from me...at this point, if some people can't realize why the history of the Clintons makes so many on the left fearful, then there's no point in even continuing the discussion. Boiled down to its essence, it's decades of policies and positions that liberals absolutely loathed.

After all, there's a reason nearly three million people voted Nader in 2000.
Sometimes it's all about articulation. Plus I think when you constantly pepper your posts with complete and utter bullshit like Clinton will be more of a hawk than Trump you lose all credibility.
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Old 07-29-2016, 03:07 PM   #592
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Seriously, wtf? You don't think liberals will hold accountable anybody that does that shit? Because we certainly will.

The problem isn't that she was a woman taking money from Goldman Sachs, it's that she was taking money from Goldman Sachs.
And she wasn't in office!!! So who gives a shit. That's the point. Bernie's writing a book now. So i guess he's in the pocket of big publishing.

And don't be coy about it. The question was always - Why did you get paid SO MUCH? meaning it must be nefarious because she obviously couldn't demand that fee by
just being the First lady, 2 term NY senator, SOS and 20 time most admired woman in the world right?
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Old 07-29-2016, 03:11 PM   #593
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I guess for some people, you must be pure of heart to be any good. No mistakes ever, no flip flopping.

It reminds me of a David Brent quote, "A good idea is a good idea forever"
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Old 07-29-2016, 03:20 PM   #594
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Hillary Clinton bizarre tick video.

Mini-Seizure? Demonic Possesion? Reptilian Shift? Or just a brain freeze from that Cold Chai?

https://youtu.be/RhhrSr-hjxY


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Old 07-29-2016, 03:26 PM   #595
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Wait, Bernie is writing a book? Oh he better not get any revenue from this or I'm staging a fart in at one of his book signings.
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Old 07-29-2016, 03:41 PM   #596
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And she wasn't in office!!! So who gives a shit.
Everybody knew she would be running again in 2016. That's the problem. If you don't think people have been buying themselves political favors with her either directly or through the Clinton Fund, then you're as naive as they come.
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Old 07-29-2016, 03:43 PM   #597
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Hillary Clinton bizarre tick video.
there are stretches, and then there are STRETCHES.

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Old 07-29-2016, 03:44 PM   #598
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Everybody knew she would be running again in 2016. That's the problem. If you don't think people have been buying themselves political favors with her either directly or through the Clinton Fund, then you're as naive as they come.
so the moral of your little story is you aren't allowed to make any money if there's a chance you might be running for office some day. okayyyy
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Old 07-29-2016, 03:47 PM   #599
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Hillary Clinton, the person women can trust on abortion.

Or maybe not since she decided to choose a VP who refuses to stop favoring the Hyde Amendment.

Kaine Contradicts Clinton Statements on Abortion Funding - NBC News
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Old 07-29-2016, 03:51 PM   #600
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so the moral of your little story is you aren't allowed to make any money if there's a chance you might be running for office some day. okayyyy
No, the moral is that people running for office shouldn't be accepting what are essentially bribes from corporations. If it were a Republican like Romney doing the same shit, you'd all be having a field day with it.

Honestly, take away her history with the party and none of you would be supporting a candidate that voted for the War in Iraq, gave glowing speeches to Goldman Sachs, etc. Plenty of you are twisting your values so that you can pretend that Clinton's politics fit firmly within them.
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