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Old 07-24-2016, 01:21 PM   #21
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Old 07-24-2016, 01:23 PM   #22
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Old 07-24-2016, 01:31 PM   #23
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Old 07-24-2016, 01:42 PM   #24
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Old 07-24-2016, 02:50 PM   #25
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He's not dumb, he's not irresponsible, he's boring but not unlikeable. Basically he's...okay. I'm a bit disappointed that in an election that I believe the other side will lose in a landslide AND in an election that could set up the Dems for a very nice future reign, the choice was made to go with "okay."
Kaine helps guarantee Virginia, which is barely a blue state. In the 2014 senate race, Warner (D) beat the Republican by less than 1%. Without the libertarian(who did better in many red counties) in the race, Warner may have lost.
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Old 07-24-2016, 03:57 PM   #26
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2016 US Presidential Election Thread Part XI

If we can guarantee that Virginia goes Blue and that Clinton doesn't struggle in kinda-blue states like Nevada, Iowa, New Mexico, and New Hampshire, then Clinton just has to win one of Pennsylvania, Ohio, or Florida to win. Colorado doesn't matter either way in this scenario.

So, in my mind, the Kaine pick makes sense if the election is really tight. If the dynamics really shift towards Trump, it won't matter. But if it is a close race, it will help by making Clinton need only one of the big three swing states, assuming that Kaine locks in Virginia (which isn't certain, of course).


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Old 07-24-2016, 04:45 PM   #27
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i think it's a nice thought to want a progressive Democratic presidential ticket, but the reality is, at this point, we aren't getting any more progressive than Obama, who is definitely to the Left of B. Clinton. winning isn't the most important thing, it's the only thing given the straight up insanity of the GOP since 2000. these people must be kept out of power by whatever legal means necessary. if that means playing it safe and being moderate, on a national level, so be it. a president is president of all the people, not just the residents of the Bay Area or Madison, WI.

what Democrats need to do is start turning out in off-year elections and not just show up when the cool black guy is on the ticket. state houses and governorships are where future stars are born, and progressive states like CA and MA and NY and even CO need to groom progressive leaders with national appeal. think Tim Kaine is too bland? think his straight white maleness disqualifies him from being a part of the future? find your local stars and support them.

i feel the same way about the Green Party. and instead of paraphrasing, i'll post the Dan Savage post on Jill Stein that went viral a few days ago:

Quote:
CALLER: Hi my name is Pheasant and I live in Kansas. My question is, why — you guys talk a lot about politics — I would love to hear you guys talk about third party politics: Independent Party, the Green Party, and the Libertarian Party.

I’m a huge Green Party supporter; I’m voting for Jill Stein. And I realize that people say that if you vote for these, it’s just a wasted vote, it’s a vote for Republicans.

But I also feel we need to start sending a message to Washington and to our political leaders that we’re sick and tired of this two party system and candidates who are controlled by corporations and special interest groups. And they can’t piss off their donors, you know, because they buy the votes.

So I’m just wondering why you guys never talk about it because I think Jill Stein — she’s a member of the Green Party — she’s amazing. And for the people that bitch and moan about… Hillary didn’t always support gay rights, and Bernie didn’t always support this… I agree with you Dan, I think it's ridiculous how — that people can change. That’s what we want, we try to get people — hey, stop being a homophobic asshole, hey stop being a racist prick. But you know the Green Party has never changed. They’ve always supported gay rights, equality for all, the environment…

DAN SAVAGE: Alright, blah blah blah. Sorry I had to stop you. Yeah, let’s talk about the Green Party for just a moment, or third parties, getting a third party movement off the ground here in this country. Because we are sick of the two party system!

Here’s how you fucking do that: you run people not just for fucking president every four fucking years.

I have a problem with the Greens, I have a problem with the Libertarians. I have a problem with these fake, attention seeking, grandstanding Green/Libertarian party candidates who pop up every four years, like mushrooms in shit, saying that they're building a third party. And those of us who don't have a home in the Republican Party, don't have a home in the Democratic Party, can't get behind every Democratic position or Republican position, should gravitate toward these third parties. And help build a third party movement by every four fucking years voting for one of these assholes like Jill fucking Stein, who I'm sure is a lovely person, she's only an asshole in this aspect.

If you're interested in building a third party, a viable third party, you don’t start with president. You don't start by running someone for fucking president.

[B]Where are the Green Party candidates for city councils? For county councils? For state legislatures? For state assessor? For state insurance commissioner? For governor? For fucking dogcatcher? I would be SO willing to vote for Green Party candidates who are starting at the bottom, grassroots, bottom up, building a third party, a viable third party.

You don't do that by trotting out the reanimated corpse of Ralph fucking Nader every four fucking years. Or his doppelgänger, whoever it is now, Jill Stein and some asshole-to-be-named four years from now. You start by running grassroots, local campaigns. And there've been — and I'm sure we're going hear from lots of people out there listening — there have been a couple of Green Party candidates who’ve run in other races here and there across the country. But no sustained effort to build a Green Party nationally. Just this griping, bullshitty, grandstanding, fault-finding, purity-testing, holier than thou-ing, that we are all subjected to every four fucking years by the Green Party candidate.

And the folks, including you caller — and I love you and I respect you and we’re having this debate and I'm not treating you with kid gloves because I respect you — who are fooled by them, who are sucked into this bullshit, who are tricked by these grandstanding, attention-seeking, bullshit-spewing charlatans, into wasting your vote.

Which is what you are going to do, I'm sorry to say, to circle back to the top of your call. You are essentially, if you're voting for Jill Stein, helping to potentially elect Donald J. Trump president of these United States. Which would be a catastrophe.

Which is what some people say that they want. People supported Ralph Nader in 2000 and said there was no difference between Al Gore and George W. Bush, therefore we could all afford to throw our votes away, protest-style, on Ralph Nader, who had no hope of getting elected, because there was no difference between Bush and Gore.

These same people, at the same time, said that George Bush was so manifestly obviously terrible that he would bring the revolution if he got himself elected somehow. They didn’t say this about Gore, he wouldn’t bring the revolution. They’re exactly the same, exactly as awful, but one would bring the revolution and one wouldn’t. Which means they weren't exactly the same and they weren't equally awful.

And we're hearing the same thing now about Hillary and Donald. That they’re both equally awful. They're both equally terrible, corrupt two party system, fuck it, fuck it, fuck it. Fuck them both, fuck both their houses! Vote for Jill Stein!

And if Donald should get elected, oh he’s so terrible, so much worse than the equally awful Hillary Clinton, that his election will bring the revolution.

It's bullshit.

The revolution did not come in 2000 when George W. Bush got close enough to winning to steal the White House. It will not come if Donald J. Trump gets his ass elected.

Disaster will come. And the people who’ll suffer are not going to be the pasty white Green Party supporters — pasty white Jill Stein and her pasty white supporters. The people who’ll suffer are going to be people of color. People of minority faiths. Queer people. Women.

Don’t do it. Don't throw your vote away on Jill Stein/vote for, bankshot-style, Donald Trump.

And if you want to build a viable third party, more power to you. I could see myself voting for a Green Party candidate for president in 25 years, after I've seen Green Party candidates getting elected to state legislatures, getting elected to governorships, getting elected to Congress. Then you can run some legitimate motherfucker for president.

Dan Savage on Jill Stein: Just No. - Slog - The Stranger

there are people who get up very early in the morning and work very hard to make the Democratic Party viable. you go to an election with the electorate you have, not the electorate you want.

Obama's biggest failure -- and, i agree, Kaine should share some blame for this -- has been the resounding defeats in 2010 and 2014. however, we can only blame the leaders so much. people have to get out and actually vote. like how old people do. you want a progressive country? vote for one.
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Old 07-24-2016, 05:38 PM   #28
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If anything the pick of Kaine underscores the ridiculousness of the electoral college system, in which major party decisions, with implicit future directions, are made based on picking up a state here or there.

And who knows, maybe Kaine and Hillary get along famously as she has claimed. Maybe she implicitly trusts him and the two will make a great team. If that is the case, we should be focusing on that, not on whether he can turn a few states in November.
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Old 07-24-2016, 05:46 PM   #29
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This is it for me, too.

It could also be summed up in two other words: Supreme Court.
Yeah, THIS. If nothing else! And there is plenty of else! to go around.

I f (gak) trump wins it's gonna be...

"baby, baby, where did our libs go?...."
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:25 PM   #30
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i

what Democrats need to do is start turning out in off-year elections and not just show up when the cool black guy is on the ticket.
Which is actually basically the purpose for the DNC's existence. Worst defeat imaginable, which created a lot of the gridlock in Washington in subsequent years, and that defeat happened under the guidance of Kaine. That's why I don't care for him. Whether he picks up Virginia or whatever else, that had left a bad taste in my mouth and my theory has always been that he (much like most Dems) really doesn't believe in a 50-state strategy, but in running for a state or two. When you run elections to NOT LOSE instead of to win, eventually, the chickens will come home to roost.

To be perfectly honest if she nominated Kaine and he said he had no interest in running for president after her term(s), I'd have no issue with him. I just don't want him to be seen as the future.
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:33 PM   #31
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One thing that I think about regarding Clinton and Stein is that Clinton, as the Savage piece pointed to, is having to pull together an anti-Trump coalition from people both to her left and to her right, and I feel like we all have a duty to recognize that.

I come from somewhat to the right of the post-Bernie Clinton campaign, and I'm having to hold my nose a good bit when voting her. I strongly support the Trans-Pacific Partnership. I think that a $15 national minimum wage is a terrible idea. I'm pretty lukewarm on the left's campaign finance reform causes. A tax on high frequency trading seems really silly to me.

But I recognize that it would be a disaster for this country. And I honestly feel that I need to do everything I can to support the only credible candidate who can defeat him. I believe in a world that is more open, more democratic, more fair to people of all backgrounds. I think that most people who, like me, typically vote for Democrats are. And I believe that Donald J. Trump is at best someone who will set that project back in numerous ways and at worst an existential crisis for it. So, I'm With Her, even if she's to my left.

I understand people who are far to my left who think that the revolution is coming every day, who think that the system isn't worth saving, and who want to cast a protest vote in that sense. But I think that's a rather small minority of people considering voting for Stein; for most of those people, Stein is way too far to the right. So, for the rest of us, for everyone who doesn't want to set the stage for potential global catastrophe, I feel like Clinton is the only answer. I'm sucking up and voting for someone to my left, and I don't think it's too much to ask for the favor to be returned. I think we all have similar goals, if different ideas on how to reach them correctly. But Donald J. Trump must, must, must, must, must be defeated.

That said, there's a strong argument for major electoral reform in this country. The electoral college is what prevents third party candidates from being viable, and it might have outlived its usefulness. But it's not going away in 2016.
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:11 PM   #32
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Michael R. Bloomberg, who bypassed his own run for the presidency this election cycle, will endorse Hillary Clinton in a prime-time address at the Democratic convention and make the case for Mrs. Clinton as the best choice for moderate voters in 2016, an adviser to Mr. Bloomberg said.

The news is an unexpected move from Mr. Bloomberg, who has not been a member of the Democratic Party since 2000; was elected the mayor of New York City as a Republican; and later became an independent.

But it reflects Mr. Bloomberg’s increasing dismay about the rise of Donald J. Trump and a determination to see that the Republican nominee is defeated.

Mrs. Clinton is seeking to reach out to middle-of-the-road swing voters and even moderate Republicans uneasy about Mr. Trump. Polls show that significant numbers of Republicans remain wary of Mr. Trump, and question his fitness for the presidency.

Mr. Bloomberg will vouch for Mrs. Clinton “from the perspective of a business leader and an independent,” said Howard Wolfson, a senior adviser to Mr. Bloomberg.
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:14 PM   #33
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i think it's a nice thought to want a progressive Democratic presidential ticket, but the reality is, at this point, we aren't getting any more progressive than Obama, who is definitely to the Left of B. Clinton. winning isn't the most important thing, it's the only thing given the straight up insanity of the GOP since 2000. these people must be kept out of power by whatever legal means necessary. if that means playing it safe and being moderate, on a national level, so be it. a president is president of all the people, not just the residents of the Bay Area or Madison, WI.

what Democrats need to do is start turning out in off-year elections and not just show up when the cool black guy is on the ticket. state houses and governorships are where future stars are born, and progressive states like CA and MA and NY and even CO need to groom progressive leaders with national appeal. think Tim Kaine is too bland? think his straight white maleness disqualifies him from being a part of the future? find your local stars and support them.

i feel the same way about the Green Party. and instead of paraphrasing, i'll post the Dan Savage post on Jill Stein that went viral a few days ago:




there are people who get up very early in the morning and work very hard to make the Democratic Party viable. you go to an election with the electorate you have, not the electorate you want.

Obama's biggest failure -- and, i agree, Kaine should share some blame for this -- has been the resounding defeats in 2010 and 2014. however, we can only blame the leaders so much. people have to get out and actually vote. like how old people do. you want a progressive country? vote for one.
That's phenomenal
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:19 PM   #34
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When you run elections to NOT LOSE instead of to win, eventually, the chickens will come home to roost.
I agree with this completely. I don't want to see Clinton's campaign go the way of "this is why we can't have Trump elected" instead of "this is why I should be elected."

From my recollection that's what Romney tried last election cycle - to convince everyone he wasn't Obama - and it failed miserably as a strategy.
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:31 PM   #35
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what can she do, though? given that, 1) it's Donald fucking Trump (and that ad where he's talking about Megyn Kelly's menstrual blood while the children are watching is awfully effective), and, 2) we've all had to admit how awful she is, how we'll have to hold our noses, how she is UNLIKEABLE and SHRILL and has NO CHARISMA and that her only redeeming quality is that she isn't Donald Trump.

all this while the opposition had a grieving mother accuse her of murder last week, and have been doing so since 1992.
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:33 PM   #36
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I agree with this completely. I don't want to see Clinton's campaign go the way of "this is why we can't have Trump elected" instead of "this is why I should be elected."
But let's be honest, it already has and that's the only direction to go given how unpopular Clinton is with the general public. It's a shame because that has led to candidates like John Kerry in the past who offered basically nothing other than not being Bush.

Clinton was already positioning herself that way in the primaries...doing photo-ops in front of a Trump Tower, arguing that she shouldn't have to release her paid speech transcripts because the Republican's don't, etc. It's an easy-out and politically boring, but the fear of a Republican presidency is a huge reason why she got so many people to support her in the primaries to begin with...stopping them at all costs seems to mean more to older voters and they're obviously the easiest group to get spooked over the proverbial Bogeyman, regardless of political affiliation.

Clinton certainly has her ideas and plans that can bring people in, but the election is really going to come down to a referendum on the other candidate with the person people detest less, all things considered, ultimately winning.
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:35 PM   #37
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Michael R. Bloomberg, who bypassed his own run for the presidency this election cycle, will endorse Hillary Clinton in a prime-time address at the Democratic convention and make the case for Mrs. Clinton as the best choice for moderate voters in 2016, an adviser to Mr. Bloomberg said.

The news is an unexpected move from Mr. Bloomberg, who has not been a member of the Democratic Party since 2000; was elected the mayor of New York City as a Republican; and later became an independent.

But it reflects Mr. Bloomberg’s increasing dismay about the rise of Donald J. Trump and a determination to see that the Republican nominee is defeated.

Mrs. Clinton is seeking to reach out to middle-of-the-road swing voters and even moderate Republicans uneasy about Mr. Trump. Polls show that significant numbers of Republicans remain wary of Mr. Trump, and question his fitness for the presidency.

Mr. Bloomberg will vouch for Mrs. Clinton “from the perspective of a business leader and an independent,” said Howard Wolfson, a senior adviser to Mr. Bloomberg.
Bloomberg represents moderates and working class people, or Goldman Sachs, Romney is there too, in spirit. Neo-cons that brought the Iraq debacle are with her, too.
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:39 PM   #38
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Bloomberg represents moderates and working class people, or Goldman Sachs, Romney is there too, in spirit. Neo-cons that brought the Iraq debacle are with her, too.


good. everyone needs to denounce that authoritarian Cheeto.

i know who the Bush family is voting for. and i know who Romney is voting for.
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:40 PM   #39
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I don't expect anyone wants to talk about the DNC being rigged, just like Trump has been saying it is


Democratic Party chief to step down after embarrassing anti-Sanders emails are released - LA Times

and this did not only start only after Bernie has lost in the primaries,
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:42 PM   #40
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i know who the Bush family is voting for. and i know who Romney is voting for.
a good point, about corruption and selling out regular working class people

Bernie supporters should really consider this.
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