2016 US Presidential Election Thread Part VI

[Moonlit_Angel]

Yeah, anytime a politician spouts off about "traditional family values" or "traditional marriage", or mocks or insults anything LGBT-related, I just automatically assume now that that means there's a high likelihood of them being involved in some sex scandal of their own. It's practically routine at this point.

But honestly, if this is true, you would think, in this era of social media and 24 hour news being what it is, that these politicians would learn, at the very least, how to cover this stuff better (or, preferably, learn not to do it at all in the first place, but...).

[Mrs. Garrison]

There is probably nothing to it honestly, but i could care less. Keep talking about your moral superiority and sooner or later someone will make this type of accusation about you.

[trojanchick99]

It does much more damage to the "family values" types than your run of the mill politician.

[cobl04]

Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase

See, in most of the cases I agree with you. The comparisons of Bush from the left or Obama from the right to Hitler were just plain silly.

But Trump's game plan is absolutely taking a page from early 30s Germany.

Now do I think Trump will start rounding up the Muslims and gays and throw them into camps? Of course not... but the rhetoric is frightening none the less.

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

Thank you. Seems anything even vaguely authoritarian has to draw immediate comparisons to Hitler - what a goddamn cliche.

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

Let's all pretend like Trump had no idea that having all of his supporters raise their arms in pledge to him would look eerily similar to a nazi salute.

Of course he knew what he was doing. His whole game is media manipulation. That's why he's spent next to nothing on the first third of the states. Media outlets comped him the advertising money.

If you are bothered by people's comparisons between Trump and Adolf Hitler, you're missing the fact that he's doing it on purpose. He's been training for years with this. It's by no means a coincidence.

Originally Posted by DaveC

I don't think you can necessarily draw a straight line from Trump to Hitler by any means. I think a fairer comparison is to say that this election is similar to the 1933 campaign the Nazis won. There are a lot more similarities than "Trump is fascist" (he's not). This is a pretty good analysis:

Why we have to talk about Hitler when we discuss Trump and Sanders: Don Pittis - Business - CBC News

I'm happy to admit there are some similarities, and also willing to admit that he's doing shit like the salute on purpose to stir people up because he's just such a powerful media manipulator, but they're completely superficial, as iYup points out in his later post.

We all know about Godwin's Law. It doesn't just apply to 4chan discussions. Trump is an arsehole, but until he systematically kills six million Muslims then put the lazy, haphazard comparisons to bed. It's reactionary and immediately assures your argument invalid. There are 17 million things to criticise Trump for. Pick one of them, not just call him Hitler cos he's an utter shithead.

[BVS]

How about Shitler?


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[LuckyNumber7]

I don't think anyone is saying he's going to murder 6 million Muslims. But I think the point of comparing him to Hitler is to say "look at all of these things you're doing and appreciating about him -- these are the same characteristics that Adolf Hitler exhibited when he rose to power, and he's using them intentionally."

It's suggestive that the voters are being duped and deceived. Because they are. It's suggestive that Trump could destroy the world balance of peace as did Hitler. Because he can. Nobody is comparing Trump to the holocaust, and that's not the *only* bad thing Adolf Hitler did or is known for.

[iron yuppie]

And Hitler isn't the only historical figure ever to have used scapegoating as a rallying point or to have initiated international conflict. Hence the superficiality.

[cobl04]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

And Hitler isn't the only historical figure ever to have used scapegoating as a rallying point or to have initiated international conflict. Hence the superficiality.

Exactly. Do some more research and write better analysis.

[Mack_Again]

Demagogues everywhere.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

And Hitler isn't the only historical figure ever to have used scapegoating as a rallying point or to have initiated international conflict. Hence the superficiality.

Okay? But when you make crowds of supporters salute in an eerily nazi-like fashion, support registry of a religious minority, have a white supremacist undertone, and your ex wife makes claims that you kept Mein Kampf by your bedside, and when Adolph Hitler manages to be the most historically well known historical figure to do these things, why is the specific comparison not reasonable?

If you wanted to make a comparison, should you use someone else? Sure, he's like Mussolini, too. Happy?

[Kieran McConville]

Godwin's Law, in my humble opinion, is looking more than a little motheaten. Yes, sure, you'll always have the internet commenter who thinks anyone rightwing is Hitler: that kind of commentary can be safely disregarded.

But if the death of six million of (insert despised minority here) is the yardstick for useful analogies to a certain toxic twentieth century political movement, then, well, yeah. God help us. It took even the Nazis quite a few years to get the machine oiled and running, and elections had been cancelled long before that point. The point about fascism, or fascist-like movements, is that once you can actually point to a death camp or suspicious looking train cargo, it's far, far too late.

And I'm not sure political life in America isn't very nearly as polarised as during the sorry days of the Weimar Republic. Not sure of that at all. If there is a crucial difference it is the economic situation - which is hardly fantastic, merely not Weimar-style catastrophic.

Hitler was widely regarded as a joke in the 1920s, though he talked quite openly about what he wanted to do. It took the control of a state apparatus and thirteen years in power to acquire the aura of unique evil. In Trump's case, where he absolutely differs is that I don't think he believes strongly in anything at all except Trump. But you know, that may not be clear to everyone saluting at the rally.

[LuckyNumber7]

And there's where Donald Trump's logic actually works -- you're being far too politically correct if you think a mere mention of Adolph Hitler is taboo or offensive. Nobody is calling Trump out for preparing a genocide.

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Originally Posted by cobl04

I'm happy to admit there are some similarities, and also willing to admit that he's doing shit like the salute on purpose to stir people up because he's just such a powerful media manipulator, but they're completely superficial, as iYup points out in his later post.

We all know about Godwin's Law. It doesn't just apply to 4chan discussions. Trump is an arsehole, but until he systematically kills six million Muslims then put the lazy, haphazard comparisons to bed. It's reactionary and immediately assures your argument invalid. There are 17 million things to criticise Trump for. Pick one of them, not just call him Hitler cos he's an utter shithead.

So here's the thing to shit on your argument...

They didn't think it would happen in Germany, either.

So while I don't think it will happen here, the similarities frightening me enough to take action.

And may I sternly state for the record that I'm no liberal. But what Trump is preaching is frightening beyond anything we've seen in this country in a long long time.

It must be stopped.

[iron yuppie]

What is the use in comparing him to Hitler, though? Trump is a unique politician in a unique political and historical situation. Looking at potential responses to him in the light of Weimar Germany, even if he came out and explicitly said that his highest ambition in the world is to imitate Hitler, only distracts from the need to employ modern methods to stop him. The two situations - Weimar Germany and modern US - being wildly different is the most important point here.

And yes, I get that Trump is manipulating media in a frightening way. But what is lost in that conversation IMO is that there is a massive wing of left-leaning media dedicated to exposing his every misstep whenever and however they can. That is an important counterweight that did not exist as such in Nazi times.

[Kieran McConville]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

What is the use in comparing him to Hitler, though? Trump is a unique politician in a unique political and historical situation. Looking at potential responses to him in the light of Weimar Germany, even if he came out and explicitly said that his highest ambition in the world is to imitate Hitler, only distracts from the need to employ modern methods to stop him. The two situations - Weimar Germany and modern US - being wildly different is the most important point here.

And yes, I get that Trump is manipulating media in a frightening way. But what is lost in that conversation IMO is that there is a massive wing of left-leaning media dedicated to exposing his every misstep whenever and however they can. That is an important counterweight that did not exist as such in Nazi times.

The people who are for Trump don't care about his 'missteps'. They simply do not care.

And while I'm not wholly indifferent to the larger point here, I could as easily say, why compare anything to anything? Every day's a new day, right? Even historians argue over this sort of stuff, to what extent can useful parallels be drawn.

[Irvine511]

Let's just hope that we don't have any Paris-style attacks in the US, or worse, between now and the election (or ever).

I agree that the modern US has little in common with Weimar Germany, but I would caution against underestimating what more mass death on the streets of a major American city could do to a population.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

What is the use in comparing him to Hitler, though? Trump is a unique politician in a unique political and historical situation. Looking at potential responses to him in the light of Weimar Germany, even if he came out and explicitly said that his highest ambition in the world is to imitate Hitler, only distracts from the need to employ modern methods to stop him. The two situations - Weimar Germany and modern US - being wildly different is the most important point here.

And yes, I get that Trump is manipulating media in a frightening way. But what is lost in that conversation IMO is that there is a massive wing of left-leaning media dedicated to exposing his every misstep whenever and however they can. That is an important counterweight that did not exist as such in Nazi times.

Just like your misunderstanding of the civil war, you're not understanding the overall context. You're missing the big picture by focusing on the smaller details.

This is by no means a "left wing media" thing, if you're paying attention many of the right wing media are doing the same. And when all three agreeing at some level, that should put off alarms.

This IS the closest we have actually had on US soil that fits this overused comparison.


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[Axver]

A populist demagogue is not necessarily a fascist.

[DaveC]

I mean, you can't take the comparisons to Hitler too far, there are some to be sure. But it's not like there are brownshirts marching around silencing opponents. The campaign rhetoric has a few similarities but that's as far as you can really take it. A comparison to Hitler in power, much less at the end of WWII, is asinine.

[cobl04]

Originally Posted by BVS

This IS the closest we have actually had on US soil that fits this overused comparison.

But it's not even close. It isn't 19 fucking 39. Trump is not going to go "lol sucked in I'm actually a fascist" upon being sworn in and systematically murder millions of a minority population. iYup is right - there now exists many platforms for those in opposition to speak out. Trump is not going to be able to wipe out all opposition and run a dictatorship.

Yes, there are similarities. But it is not at all helpful to just yell TRUMP IS HITLER into the wind. There's nowhere to go from there.