2016 US Presidential Election Thread IX

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Axver

Most of the world is waiting for your retrograde country of reprobates to hurry the fuck up and elect a woman as a leader because it's not 1700 any more.

this isn't going to help either.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

No, you holding?

If I was rich I'd buy you a ticket to come to America. That's the point, the middle class hasn't seen significant wage increases in 15 years. Many don't have enough money to pay for an out of pocket car repair. Insurance premiums keep skyrocketing every year. You may have the answer in your part of the world, still wrought with difficulties.

These Americans are pissed off at politicians in general. They're bucking the established system by supporting Trump and Sanders. Hillary is the poster-child of establishment power. I've yet to meet one person in my circle of friends family that is truly enthusiastic about her.

It's not like half the country listens to Rush Limbaugh everyday and takes their marching orders from him, but many people in their own minds do not like Hillary Clinton one bit. To many people she is an embarrassment and is embarrassing herself even more on the campaign trail.


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference

NONE of this speaks to how she's an embarrassment though. "Establishment" does not necessarily = "embarrassment".

What plan does dickhead Donald have to increase your salary? How does a man who's been handed everything in his life, and when he did fail walk away from his responsibilities by filing bankruptcy, qualify as someone who is a champion for the middle class? Can you see how that makes absolutely no sense to anyone outside of the world of Breitbart?

[Hewson]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

Hillary is the poster-child of establishment power. I've yet to meet one person in my circle of friends family that is truly enthusiastic about her.

Exactly.
I was at a party for a friend's wife's birthday Saturday night. It was in the very democratic town I grew up in and pretty much every attendee was raised there, most still live there. When the subject of the election came up, everyone in a group of 20 plus said they disliked both candidates. I honestly don't know anyone (outside of this site) who has a favorable opinion of Hillary. People talk about how Trump's candidacy is showing the Republican party how fed up their members are with the status quo. The Democratic party needs to wake up too, cause there's a realistic chance Trump beats her in November, she's that poor of a candidate.

Worst election choice evah.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Hewson

Exactly.
I was at a party for a friend's wife's birthday Saturday night. It was in the very democratic town I grew up in and pretty much every attendee was raised there, most still live there. When the subject of the election came up, everyone in a group of 20 plus said they disliked both candidates. I honestly don't know anyone (outside of this site) who has a favorable opinion of Hillary. People talk about how Trump's candidacy is showing the Republican party how fed up their members are with the status quo. The Democratic party needs to wake up too, cause there's a realistic chance Trump beats her in November, she's that poor of a candidate.

Worst election choice evah.

People are fired up in both directions about Trump. They misguidedly think he'll do something, I'm not sure what they think he'll do, but he'll do something "great". Or they truly fear what he will do based on history and the fact that he's completely erratic.

Sanders excites people. Many that he should excite, or others that he did excite at one time find his lack of specifics troubling. AND don't be fooled, he would fire up the right if he got the nom. I honestly think if Sanders was a young politician, he or she would be a force to reckon with, they wouldn't win this time around, but they'd start something that with some fine tuning and specifics could be president in the future. I think it's unfortunate that it's happening now with someone who is 74 years old.

Hillary doesn't really excite many in her party, she'll be the practical vote, but she does excite the right. Honestly I think being up against Trump will kind of help her, I think she'll get a lot of anti-Trump votes.

At the end of the day, it's shit choices.

It's cloud 9 dreaming vs meh vs I could destroy this country

[Irvine511]

If I talk about misogyny, will people respond the same way they do when someone brings up race and Obama? (STOP SAYING I'M RACIST IF I DISAGREE WITH OBAMA)

Because it's an issue (not the only issue, but it is present) here.

Gender is more complex than even race, and there may be something about the power of the presidency -- it's not like being PM, there are real differences -- that makes men (and many women) upset when envisioning a woman in that position.

I know, I know. HRC has been around for 25 years. She's as establishment as they come. She's "unlikeable." She's shrill. Earlier we talked about how much of a bitch she was or wasn't. Remember that?

Is the presidency so inherently alpha that any female candidate would be "unlikeable"?

[Oregoropa]

Originally Posted by BVS

NONE of this speaks to how she's an embarrassment though. "Establishment" does not necessarily = "embarrassment".



What plan does dickhead Donald have to increase your salary? How does a man who's been handed everything in his life, and when he did fail walk away from his responsibilities by filing bankruptcy, qualify as someone who is a champion for the middle class? Can you see how that makes absolutely no sense to anyone outside of the world of Breitbart?

I'm not sure the details of his specific bankruptcy filings. Businesses and individuals can file for those protections to rectify insurmountable debt. Many middle class Americans are faced with the specter of choosing bankruptcy protection in this day and age. The one type of a debt that cannot be discharged in a personal filing is student loan debt. When asked about his bankruptcies Trump could actually pivot to point out how the middle class has increasingly turned to bankruptcy protection as a last ditch alternative to clean the slate of outrageous medical bills or out of control credit card APRs which skyrocketed after Dodd-Frank. A pox on both the houses of government and big banking. A sign of government meddling causing unforeseen blowback on the Middle Class.

Business bankruptcies seem to be more commonplace. Companies need to reorganize. Some jobs are lost, but many can be saved by not allowing the business to completely shutter its doors.


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

I'm not sure the details of his specific bankruptcy filings. Businesses and individuals can file for those protections to rectify insurmountable debt. Many middle class Americans are faced with the specter of choosing bankruptcy protection in this day and age. The one type of a debt that cannot be discharged in a personal filing is student loan debt. When asked about his bankruptcies Trump could actually pivot to point out how the middle class has increasingly turned to bankruptcy protection as a last ditch alternative to clean the slate of outrageous medical bills or out of control credit card APRs which skyrocketed after Dodd-Frank. A pox on both the houses of government and big banking. A sign of government meddling causing unforeseen blowback on the Middle Class.

Business bankruptcies seem to be more commonplace. Companies need to reorganize. Some jobs are lost, but many can be saved by not allowing the business to completely shutter its doors.


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference

Yeah, probably not. The difference between a middle class citizen filing bankruptcy or a small business owner filing bankruptcy and Trump is that most don't ever recover from bankruptcy. Trump walked away owing millions that he'll never have to answer for, jobs were lost, he still kept his 500,000 a month apartment and was personally unscathed.

Not someone who has a clue about the middle class, nor a plan for them.

[bobsaget77]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

No, you holding?

If I was rich I'd buy you a ticket to come to America. That's the point, the middle class hasn't seen significant wage increases in 15 years. Many don't have enough money to pay for an out of pocket car repair. Insurance premiums keep skyrocketing every year. You may have the answer in your part of the world, still wrought with difficulties.

These Americans are pissed off at politicians in general. They're bucking the established system by supporting Trump and Sanders. Hillary is the poster-child of establishment power. I've yet to meet one person in my circle of friends family that is truly enthusiastic about her.

It's not like half the country listens to Rush Limbaugh everyday and takes their marching orders from him, but many people in their own minds do not like Hillary Clinton one bit. To many people she is an embarrassment and is embarrassing herself even more on the campaign trail.


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference

[anitram]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Is the presidency so inherently alpha that any female candidate would be "unlikeable"?

I think you're wrong here.

Female candidates in general would face all kinds of opposition and protest that male candidates would not, but "unlikeable" is not really a general anti-feminist trait as exhibited by those with misogynist tendencies.

If Elizabeth Warren were the nominee, she would be attacked for being a bleeding-heart liberal (there go those gals wanting everyone to have health care, hugs, bunnies and rainbows), but not for being unlikeable. Take somebody a bit out of left field, like say Caroline Kennedy - again she is not unlikeable and my guess is they would attack her for being an entitled princess or some similar thing Rush would come up with.

Hillary is uniquely unlikeable in my opinion. She has a tendency to come across as really, really smug, which is interesting because I see Obama as more professorial and intellectual which a certain segment of society hates, but he (mostly) manages to not come across like he is irritated to be explaining something to the masses yet again. She also comes across as a liar in the sense that she would be willing to do or say whatever it takes - plenty of examples of male politicians who also change their votes whichever way the wind blows. Hell Trump is a much bigger liar and has been branded so.

None of this in any way justifies voting for Trump, but I think that we're really trying to twist ourselves into a pretzel here to explain away Hillary's faults as somehow being the inherent fault of a sexist electorate. Sorry, there is plenty there to dislike without any misogyny. I have many, many highly educated feminist (some even ultra-feminist) friends, not a single one of them thinks much of her, though would all vote for her given the alternative.

[Hewson]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Is the presidency so inherently alpha that any female candidate would be "unlikeable"?

I honestly think "No", for most folks. Obviously there'll always be some who will have that viewpoint, just like some will never vote for Obama or the next non-white candidate. But I think a female candidate can be seen as likeable while still being tough and having leadership qualities, just HRC (and VP wannabe Carly also) can't.
Just needs to be the right candidate, with the right resume and persona.

Would have been interesting to see Condoleeza Rice run back in 2008, and try and break 2 barriers at once, wonder how she'd have fared. I think Republicans might have embraced her (the left definitely not, but it wouldn't have been due to her gender or race)

[anitram]

Originally Posted by Hewson

But I think a female candidate can be seen as likeable while still being tough and having leadership qualities, just HRC (and VP wannabe Carly also) can't.

This is an excellent point. Carly Fiorina is terribly unlikeable. More unlikeable than Hillary. And so is Ted Cruz.

[deep]

There are no norms this year. Conventional wisdom is out the window.

Hillary is in trouble. And in these wild times, a socialist would beat a populist businessman.

Anoa Changa is a feminist who isn’t going to vote for Hillary Clinton. Last July, when the 34-year-old Atlanta-based attorney began volunteering with the grassroots organization Women for Bernie Sanders, she received immediate pushback from other women. Over social media, they accused her and other Sanders volunteers of betraying their gender, and of being fake feminists. Even former professors and friends questioned how she could support the Vermont senator over the secretary of state.

“Some women I encounter act as if I’ve betrayed some kind of secret society,” says Changa. “I reject this brand of feminism. I’m not only voting for my gender, I’m voting for other issues.”

For the first time in its history, America is close to electing a female president, yet many women from across the political spectrum don’t like Clinton.

It’s true that, as a whole, women support her more than both Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders, but that support is not nearly as overwhelming as black voter support was for Barack Obama in 2008 and 2012. Millennial women, for example, prefer Sanders to Clinton and 49% of American women give the secretary of state an unfavorable rating.

[Hewson]

Originally Posted by anitram

This is an excellent point. Carly Fiorina is terribly unlikeable. More unlikeable than Hillary. And so is Ted Cruz.

Fuck Ted Cruz.

[Oregoropa]

Originally Posted by BVS

Yeah, probably not. The difference between a middle class citizen filing bankruptcy or a small business owner filing bankruptcy and Trump is that most don't ever recover from bankruptcy.

On the personal bankruptcy side you can't get a mortgage for 7 years. Not a death knell. Unless you're one of those people who fall into mindset that you need to 'own' you will survive.


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference

[deep]

Hillary had a (presumed) legit resume' in 2008. In 2016 her real resume' fails.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by deep

There are no norms this year. Conventional wisdom is out the window.

Hillary is in trouble. And in these wild times, a socialist would beat a populist businessman.

So that's your opinion, and it must be a fact because one opinion piece backs it up.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

On the personal bankruptcy side you can't get a mortgage for 7 years. Not a death knell. Unless you're one of those people who fall into mindset that you need to 'own' you will survive.


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference

Well it's a lot more than that, it's 7 years after the last activity, which could be years after the filing, but it's not just mortgages it's most credit.

But what I was meaning is that statistically most do not recover in the sense of returning to the same financial place prior to their filing.

[deep]

We do have the pass 6 months, for those of us that live in the real world.

There have been elections where Hillary was expected to win by 8-9 points and lost by quite a few. And then there are all your fantasy postings that Trump was just doing this for a lark, for the publicity and would fold and be out. Why not read a legit newspaper or two and apply some critical thinking. Is that too much too ask? And that was a rhetorical question. So please carry on.

[Hewson]

Originally Posted by deep

Why not read a legit newspaper or two and apply some critical thinking. Is that too much too ask? And that was a rhetorical question. So please carry on.

So newspapers are the only place to gain factual info?
Welcome to 1924 deep.

[deep]

better than FB postings. That was suggested as a start, multiple sourcing from many points of view is what I would recommend. It seems like people don't want to understand the arguments and just want to label the opposition as scum, worthless pieces of shit. I am not ready to write off 50% of Americans because at this point in time their opinion might be different from my current conclusions. I do have a hard time relating to the abusive and hostile language people use to put forth their arguments. So I try and find more measured presenters of those positions so I can understand why one believes a certain way.