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Old 02-05-2016, 02:54 PM   #861
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Yes, male politicians' looks have been mocked and criticized, but the media still also talks seriously about their policies, and treats them like actual politicians.
One exception I can think of in this election cycle is Chris Christie - people have actually openly discussed whether he is too fat to be president. And he is regularly called Crisco, Crispy or whatever on Twitter and other places.
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:58 PM   #862
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My god... this is like saying its racist to describe a black man as being a black man.

Um, no it's not. A better analogy would be if you said Obama was using his being black to appeal to _______.




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Old 02-05-2016, 02:58 PM   #863
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We were not talking about her policies, directly. We were talking about her lack of genuine behavior and delivery.

And Jesus Christ... she fucking launched her campaign with a huge emphasis on the fact that she's a grandmother to illustrate her experience and repair her family values reputation. She ACTUALLY put on the grandmother act. That's not SEXIST. It's what she DID. My god... this is like saying its racist to describe a black man as being a black man.

well, she has to in order to humanize her. after all, ambitious women are inauthentic and full of Botox. what is she if she can't remind us that she has/had a functioning vagina and a maternal instinct? after all, conservative female politicians respond to every question with, "Tim, as a mother, I would want anyone who harmed a child to be given the death penalty."

i do know what you're getting at, though.

if you dig back to 2008, i remember being really irritated when she sniffled a little bit at a NH town meeting or whatever after she came in 3rd in Iowa. she also talked about the tough times on the campaign trail and how it's easy to gain weight "when all there is to eat is pizza." i remember rolling my eyes like Liz Lemon and being all like, "Jesus, lady, could you work that frumpy menopausal lady thing any harder?"

and it was wise old Yolland who basically said, "well, what else would she do? she's a politician. she has to work every advantage she can." it's no different than Rubio talking about his father owning a bar on the beach or Clinton being the boy from Hope. they work whatever they have that will make their life story seem compelling to the uninformed. we only notice it more with women because it's new. Romney trotted out his moderately hot sons and all their children whenever he could -- but does that arise the same amount of ire?

at the end of the day, i can't argue that Hillary may come across as inauthentic. i can't tell you what you're thinking. but i do think that some charges of inauthenticity are rooted in gender because a woman has no other choice but to play the political game if she is to have any prayer at elected office at all.
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Old 02-05-2016, 02:59 PM   #864
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We were not talking about her policies, directly. We were talking about her lack of genuine behavior and delivery.

And Jesus Christ... she fucking launched her campaign with a huge emphasis on the fact that she's a grandmother to illustrate her experience and repair her family values reputation. She ACTUALLY put on the grandmother act. That's not SEXIST. It's what she DID. My god... this is like saying its racist to describe a black man as being a black man.
I think the problem i see here is that you call it a "grandmother act"!? She's a grandmother. I'm sure a proud one, and like having a child can change your life's perspective, I would imagine having a grandchild could be nearly as immense.

I know she's serious, no-nonsense, and doesn't have the charm of Bill (nor do many others) but it seems that you may be laying everything on her personality, instead of her obvious experience, unmatched knowledge, solid detailed plans and proven determination over decades.

I think there is something deep down in people that just wants or expects a woman to be more emotional or passive or something that evokes a negative feeling. I am not saying this because it HRC. I loathe Carly Fiorina and would say she faces similar obstacles.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:01 PM   #865
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One exception I can think of in this election cycle is Chris Christie - people have actually openly discussed whether he is too fat to be president. And he is regularly called Crisco, Crispy or whatever on Twitter and other places.
What you said is true. What is also absolutely true, is that NO woman, if she was his weight, would have ever, ever been elected as Governor. I promise you.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:03 PM   #866
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One exception I can think of in this election cycle is Chris Christie - people have actually openly discussed whether he is too fat to be president. And he is regularly called Crisco, Crispy or whatever on Twitter and other places.
And let's be honest, looks have been an important part of electing a president since television, going back to the Nixon/Kennedy debates.

Ross Perot's huge ears were roundly mocked in 92.

Dukakis was known as the midget from Massachusetts.

A woman being a serious contender for the office is new territory, but judging candidates by their looks is not. Sad as it may be, for a lot of the population its more like voting for prom king or queen than for someone's policies and abilities to lead.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:04 PM   #867
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2016 US Presidential Election Pt. IV

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yes, i agree that men's appearances come under scrutiny. but it's seen as a personality quirk rather than a character flaw. that's the sexist problem.
Well, in the case of Botox the analogy just so happened to fit with a character flaw. Botox = cosmetic poker face. Hides emotions. Hence "seeing right through it."



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you'll have to explain further because i don't understand what you're saying here.

You assume you're the only gay person around here and therefore you have the Interference say-all on all things gay.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:08 PM   #868
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I think the problem i see here is that you call it a "grandmother act"!? She's a grandmother. I'm sure a proud one, and like having a child can change your life's perspective, I would imagine having a grandchild could be nearly as immense.

Im sure she is. My point was that my utilization of "Mom" from Futurama was a character representation of someone who uses a gimmick that isn't typical of her personality in order to appeal to emotion.

But the reference wasn't used simply because she's simply an old lady. It was used because it's what she *actually* did. It was her campaign, not her as an individual.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:09 PM   #869
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And Jesus Christ... she fucking launched her campaign with a huge emphasis on the fact that she's a grandmother to illustrate her experience and repair her family values reputation. She ACTUALLY put on the grandmother act. That's not SEXIST. It's what she DID. My god... this is like saying its racist to describe a black man as being a black man.
She may well have been playing that up in her campaign, but I don't get where that's necessarily something to criticize or mock her for.

I'm just saying that the whole thing about her possibly having had Botox or commenting on her grandmotherly demeanor doesn't seem very relevant to the discussion about her record on various issues or whether or not she's genuine when speaking to people or whatever. Just like I don't really get why anyone would bring up the fact that Trump wears a toupee in a serious discussion about his political history.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:09 PM   #870
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You assume you're the only gay person around here and therefore you have the Interference say-all on all things gay.

i don't ascribe myself that much power. i certainly speak up, and will offer my opinion -- as i do on a wide, wide variety of topics -- and do experience the world as a gay male and no one has the right to tell me how i should or should not experience my gayness or present it.

i guess i'd like to think that if i come off as an authority it's because of the strength of my arguments, and not my sexual orientation. but i guess you see it differently?

i also can't think of another openly gay active poster in here. Melon hasn't been here in years.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:12 PM   #871
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She may well have been playing that up in her campaign, but I don't get where that's necessarily something to criticize or mock her for.



I'm just saying that the whole thing about her possibly having had Botox or commenting on her grandmotherly demeanor doesn't seem very relevant to the discussion about her record on various issues or whether or not she's genuine when speaking to people or whatever. Just like I don't really get why anyone would bring up the fact that Trump wears a toupee in a serious discussion about his political history.

Well, we were talking about her disingenuous behavior. The Botox was an analogy. Is her Botox actually relevant? No of course not. Was I actually judging her for having Botox? Clearly not.

But yes, her grandmother card is pertinent to the discussion. I am questioning the many faces of Hilary Clinton. Because she's an act. She's overly scripted. You don't know when she's being genuine. When she actually cares about something. I think that matters.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:14 PM   #872
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i also can't think of another openly gay active poster in here. Melon hasn't been here in years.
Are you missing something here Irvine? Or just messing with LN7?
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:15 PM   #873
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Are you missing something here Irvine?

perhaps i am? i'm doing three things at once. posting in here is the 4th thing.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:18 PM   #874
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One exception I can think of in this election cycle is Chris Christie - people have actually openly discussed whether he is too fat to be president. And he is regularly called Crisco, Crispy or whatever on Twitter and other places.
Very true. And that sort of criticism is silly and dumb, too. And it's also ignorant, 'cause if I recall rightly, some of our previous presidents haven't exactly been on the skinny side, so...yeah.

In short, there's a lot of really dumb stuff people will judge a president's capability or lack thereof on that has nothing to do with their actual politics. The type of scrutiny you get just varies depending on who you are or what your background is.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:32 PM   #875
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lo and behold, i just stumbled across this.

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There’s a second major reason millennials prefer Sanders to Clinton, and that one is more stylistic than substantive.

It has to do with his so-called “authenticity,” by which is usually meant his willingness to look and sound like a hot mess.

I suspect young Americans have always been skeptical of anyone trying too hard to look and sound a particular way (see: Holden Caulfield vs. the “phonies”). But that skepticism is heightened among today’s youth.

In the social media era, meticulous image management is both a necessity and a source of constant resentment and cynicism. We are bombarded with carefully curated Instagram feeds, tweets and other forms of self-conscious digital preening. We must be camera-ready at all times, lest an unflattering image find its way onto Facebook. Yet what’s perhaps the bravest, most powerful boast you can make online? “#Nofilter,” a humblebrag hashtag applied to unedited photos. Or perhaps its close cousin, “#IWokeUpLikeThis.”

It is precisely Sanders’s au-naturel-ness that endears him to his young fans: his unkempt hair, his ill-fitting suits, his unpolished Brooklyn accent, his propensity to yell and wave his hands maniacally. Sanders, it appears, woke up like this.

These qualities are what make him seem “authentic,” “sincere” even — especially when contrasted with Clinton’s hyper-scriptedness. Sanders, unlike Clinton, doesn’t give a damn if he’s camera-ready.

This is, of course, a form of authenticity that is off-limits to any female politician, not just one with Clinton’s baggage.

Female politicians — at least if they want to be taken seriously on a national stage — cannot be unkempt and unfiltered, hair mussed and voice raised. They have to be carefully coifed and scripted at all times, because they have to hew as closely as possible to the bounds of propriety available to both their sex and their occupation. They can’t be too quiet or too loud, too emotional or too cold, too meek or too aggressive, and so on.

But they also can’t appear to be trying too hard, either. At least if they want the kind of enthusiastic millennial support that Sanders enjoys.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...html?tid=sm_fb
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Old 02-05-2016, 04:00 PM   #876
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lo and behold, i just stumbled across this.
Very well said, the second half especially
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Old 02-05-2016, 05:40 PM   #877
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same with Hillary (or any female politician) and her gender. but especially her, since she's running for president. we've never had another credible female run for office.

she can't yell. she can't be angry. she can't have a hair out of place. she has to be perfect in a way that men don't. you think a woman could get away with Trump's hair? we blast her for not being perfect, and then get angry because she's too cold and calculating. because she's a woman she can't be an outsider or a revolutionary, because if she were to sound like Bernie everyone would be all "OH LOOK IT'S THOSE CODE PINK CRAZIES." i think that's where these charges of "fake" and "inauthentic" come from. do you think Rubio says a damn word that hasn't been scripted and vetted? was anyone more heavily stage managed than W? are these men subject to the same charges of phoniness? has any woman in the past 30 years been subjected to more scrutiny than her? where "ambitious" is used as a pejorative, but only because she's female? i feel for the girl. i really do.

This is a really fair point, and something I should honestly probably keep in mind more than I do.


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Old 02-05-2016, 05:54 PM   #878
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Well, this is kind of a big deal...latest Quinnipiac poll has Sanders behind Clinton by only 6 points...they began conducting that poll before the Iowa caucus.

The last national poll from that same firm? December 21st with Clinton holding a 31 point advantage.

Again, I have to ask why so may people think Bernie's chances are improbable when he continues to close the gap with Clinton. If he could gain 25 points on her in about a month, then what's 6 more by Super Tuesday a month from now?
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Old 02-05-2016, 05:59 PM   #879
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Hillary is pro gay rights, strongly pro-choice, strongly pro gun control, anti citizens united, has a more comprehensive wall st. reform plan than any other candidate, pro immigration reform, pro universal health care, has been endorsed by about every large liberal org in the country, and yet, doesn't meet the new standard of progressive that seems to have been shifted to suit Bernie's needs.
Progressives don't vote for the Iraq War.

Progressives don't wait to support gay rights and the blocking of the Tar Sands pipeline and TPP until it's politically popular to do so.

Progressives don't say they support universal health care without trying to obtain universal health care.

Progressives aren't war hawks.

Progressives don't call themselves moderates if they're in a swing state or queue up a fake Southern accent if they're in the lower half of the country.

Progressives don't say they're anti-Citizens United, yet have a Super PAC.

Progressives don't say they'll reform Wall Street without immediately attempting to break up the banks.


People don't consider Clinton authentic because of her constantly fluctuating opinions on the issues to whatever suits her. She has never actually been a liberal candidate in the slightest. Nor can we really trust her to deliver on progressive policies when her husband signed NAFTA, the repeal of Glass-Steagall and drastically cut welfare.

Finally, her "liberal group" endorsements are mostly hot air. Planned Parenthood for example. That was a top-down endorsement from the leader of PP who happens to have worked for the Clintons in the 90s and whose daughter is working on the Clinton campaign. If you investigate further as a lot of left-leaning sites did, you'll find that most of the organizations that have endorsed Clinton have come from the top-down rather than a vote and they're almost always headed by someone with extremely close Clinton connections.

Clinton's core support system happens to be people voting out of name recognition and/or fear that Bernie is unelectable. That's it. Most of them are old, uninformed and scared that one of these Republican clowns could actually win (no chance). There is nothing that any true liberal gets out of a Clinton Presidency that Sanders couldn't do better. And again, she will NOT get shit done either with a Republican congress. Unless of course she plans to sign conservative legislation like her husband did in the second half of his Presidency.
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Old 02-05-2016, 06:00 PM   #880
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Well, this is kind of a big deal...latest Quinnipiac poll has Sanders behind Clinton by only 6 points...they began conducting that poll before the Iowa caucus.

The last national poll from that same firm? December 21st with Clinton holding a 31 point advantage.

Again, I have to ask why so may people think Bernie's chances are improbable when he continues to close the gap with Clinton. If he could gain 25 points on her in about a month, then what's 6 more by Super Tuesday a month from now?
I can buy that
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