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Old 09-16-2015, 12:32 PM   #921
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I read the whole thing. The only portion of that piece where I might agree that with your "objective perspective" is in his assessment of Trump's character. But the doomsday scenarios he's providing around Trump are just silly politicking and a plea for attention masquerading as taking a stand.







Note how liberalism is defined as inherently bad (if not downright evil), Obama's incompetence is stated as if it is absolute fact so plain it doesn't even require the faintest hint of actual evidence, and liberals are implicitly equated with gun fearing, God-hating weaklings who are destroying this country. That's not objective perspective. That's fear mongering, of perhaps a slightly less obtuse form than Trump employs, but fear-mongering all the same.

Well, I chose to focus mainly on the heart of the article. The abstract. And I think he's bringing about points to republicans that others cannot about Trump. Of course, he's capitalizing on the opportunity to grab attention... but from his republican perspective, within his own people and the republican base... he hit the nail on the head. It might be a cry for attention, but it deserves to be an effective one amongst republicans.
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Old 09-16-2015, 12:40 PM   #922
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Because Ron Paul ������

No but seriously, I agree. Rand Paul got all the batshit crazy from Ron, but left the integrity at home.

In other news, I've really disliked Bobby Jindal since the whole Duck Dynasty fiasco... but has anyone read his Op-Ed for CNN on Trump? Dude absolutely kills it, from an objective perspective. I didn't know he was capable of such articulation. I was impressed (even though I still strongly disagree with Jindalism).
Jindal: Donald Trump is a madman who must be stopped - CNN.com

because I don't write off Trump and his followers, some people in here think I am all in for him. Truth is I will probably end up voting with the majority of the posters in this forum, which I have in the last several Presidential elections. I write what I think about these election processes, what I believe motivates people, what I think will likely happen next, etc. At election time I vote pragmatically for the candidate that is best overall for the country.

ok, all that said, I just wanted to say I took the time to read that linked article, my only take away,
is given a choice between Jidal and Trump, I would choose Trump.

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We do need to Make America Great Again. We do need to burn down Washington. We do need to eradicate political correctness. But we will not achieve that by nominating a walking punch line.

We face a choice: We can decide to win, or we can be the biggest fools in history and put our faith not in our principles, but in an egomaniac who has no principles. It's time for Trump to take the ride down his own elevator. It's time we rally behind a serious candidate.

I'm the Ivy League educated son of immigrants. Liberals hate me for that because instead of joining their ranks, I'm a gun-owning, God-fearing conservative who's made a career of beating Democrats. They're now an endangered species in Louisiana. As are bureaucrats -- I've laid off more of them than Trump has fired people and I've cut my state's budget by more than he's worth.

If you want to stick it to the man so badly that you are willing to see Clinton win, vote for Trump. But if you want a politically incorrect conservative revolution, I'm the guy who can lead it.
It is total asshat, jerk bag, politicians like Jindal that are responsible for the rise of Trump
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Old 09-16-2015, 01:41 PM   #923
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because I don't write off Trump and his followers, some people in here think I am all in for him.
I'm pretty sure no one in here thinks that.
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Old 09-16-2015, 01:53 PM   #924
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Here is an off-topic question that parallels Trump vs Gop establishment. Do you think the Democratic establishment will do whatever it takes to prevent Sanders from getting the nomination?

The democrat primary is different in that Super-delegates get leverage in picking the nomination. I would think they would side more with Clinton or Biden.


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Old 09-16-2015, 02:10 PM   #925
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Here is an off-topic question that parallels Trump vs Gop establishment. Do you think the Democratic establishment will do whatever it takes to prevent Sanders from getting the nomination?

The democrat primary is different in that Super-delegates get leverage in picking the nomination. I would think they would side more with Clinton or Biden.


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Here's the issue with candidates like Trump and Sanders; they could both get the majority of theirs base's support, BUT candidates like this will absolutely motivate those that oppose their views to get out of their seats. So if Trump or Sanders went up against a mainstream candidate they are gifting the presidency to the other side.


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Old 09-16-2015, 02:17 PM   #926
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of all the nominees
there are only 2 Sanders has a slim chance of beating

they are Hillary and Biden, if he gets past them, he would lose to any in the GOP that get the nom, Trump would beat him in a land slide.

If Biden gets the nomination, he is a sure loser.


party insiders, can not always stop a disaster nomination i.e. Goldwater in 64
McGovern in 72

Sanders falls in the category of Goldwater or McGovern as a sure loser
Trump is not in that category.
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Old 09-16-2015, 02:34 PM   #927
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Just because you don't like someone, doesn't mean you can't tip your hat to them. I don't like him. But, did you read the whole thing?
I did read the whole thing and I didn't find it particularly objective - to me it is nothing I haven't read a hundred times before. Now maybe you can say that he's standing alone in the GOP field in being willing to put pen to paper but generally speaking it's just a pretty histrionic article.
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Old 09-16-2015, 02:36 PM   #928
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As much as I like Bernie Sanders on a personal level I have a hard time seeing how he pulls off beating Hillary in the primaries. Yes, he has a substantial lead in Iowa and New Hampshire, but those are both states with primaries basically custom made for candidates like him. Once you get to the bigger states he will get trounced by the Clinton machine. And no, I'm not at all a Hillary fan, but think that she'll be the nominee in the end.
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Old 09-16-2015, 02:51 PM   #929
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2016 US Presidential Election Pt. II

I wouldn't underestimate Biden.
He can connect to people on a personal level, similar to the way Sanders does. But is much more close to the left-center than Sanders. I think Biden is actually a generally likeable guy.

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Old 09-16-2015, 03:02 PM   #930
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I did read the whole thing and I didn't find it particularly objective - to me it is nothing I haven't read a hundred times before. Now maybe you can say that he's standing alone in the GOP field in being willing to put pen to paper but generally speaking it's just a pretty histrionic article.

I guess the difference is that I chose to read it not as though Jindal was even the writer. It's not until the personal plug where I think it's hogwash. But up until then, I don't think it's just the same-old. I particularly see it as a breakdown in words that most politicians fail to achieve. The true politician is someone like Ted Cruz, who is kissing Trump's ass at every second he gets. Ted Cruz is why Trump exists. Clowns. Which, Jindal normally is, but if this was PTI I'd be giving him some points
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Old 09-16-2015, 03:07 PM   #931
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the huge problem with Biden, outside of this left-leaning internet forum of many like minded souls, is that a Biden nomination makes this a referendum on Obama, as Biden is lock step with the Obama-Biden Presidency.

Clinton was a much more popular president with more accomplishments in 1999-2000 than Obama is now and will be next year. And a younger more competent VP than Biden, could not beat a total light weight idiot non-savant like W.

Why do you think the GOP insiders are clamoring for Biden over Hillary??
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Old 09-16-2015, 04:34 PM   #932
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but if this was PTI I'd be giving him some points
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Old 09-16-2015, 05:06 PM   #933
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I wouldn't underestimate Biden.
He can connect to people on a personal level, similar to the way Sanders does. But is much more close to the left-center than Sanders. I think Biden is actually a generally likeable guy.

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I like Biden a lot, his candor and humility are refreshing - but I don't think he's going to run. He's been very open about dealing with his grief over the loss of his son - he's even said that he's not at a point and doesn't know when he will be at a point where he could even entertain the idea of committing to everything a presidential run entails. I'd rather he be given the time and space he needs to grieve without any political pressure.
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Old 09-16-2015, 05:41 PM   #934
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I kind of like Biden, but honestly at his age, he's had a really good career and there is no shame in "only" being VP. I would hope for him to ride off into the sunset in his corvette, enjoy the rest of his days with his family, and work only if and when he desires. The job of potus isn't something i would wish on anyone his age, even though it's quite likely someone his age (or near) will get it (Hillary, Sanders, TRUMP!, etc.)

That said, if Joe does decide to run, it's probably a telltale sign that Hillary is in deep trouble or the party doesn't think she can win because of server-gate or whatever they are calling it. I can sort of see Joe getting into the ring for the sake of the party, country, or general sense of duty. But i sure hope for his sake that he doesn't have to.
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Old 09-16-2015, 07:03 PM   #935
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Biden is actually doing a lot better than Clinton in the heads-up polls against Republicans...he has far less baggage. I also think Clinton, as Secretary of State in Obama's first term, will also get targeted as "Obama's Third Term" regardless by the GOP Super Pacs.

Ultimately, I don't think it matters if Sanders or Clinton or Biden is the Democratic Nominee...especially with the Electoral College. Unless one of those three is mired in some major scandal or just flat out screws up, it won't make a difference and the election result will basically be the same.
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Old 09-16-2015, 07:04 PM   #936
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Originally Posted by deep View Post
of all the nominees
there are only 2 Sanders has a slim chance of beating

they are Hillary and Biden, if he gets past them, he would lose to any in the GOP that get the nom, Trump would beat him in a land slide.

If Biden gets the nomination, he is a sure loser.


party insiders, can not always stop a disaster nomination i.e. Goldwater in 64
McGovern in 72

Sanders falls in the category of Goldwater or McGovern as a sure loser
Trump is not in that category.
Sanders is very similar to a McGovern

The Dems are in a pickle right now. Sanders is the second coming of McGovern and Hillary is wounded and does not sound good on the stump.

As a conservative voter I'd welcome a match-up against either of them.

Behind closed doors, I wonder what National Democrats are strategizing. If they can't draft Biden then where do they look to?

Warren, Gore, Kerry?
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Old 09-16-2015, 07:08 PM   #937
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Except this country is a hell of a lot more liberal (and now undeniably left leaning) than it was in 1972. Sanders would do just fine as what he preaches is pretty much what Obama pretended to support in 2008. How will it be hard for Sanders to become President when Democrats will have gained a five million voter advantage in the last eight years just from Republicans dying? This is in no way the same country it was almost 50 years ago. Sanders and his policies might scare some people in the middle, but he'll make up for that easily by getting a ton of people that otherwise wouldn't vote to show up at the polls.

The white vote alone drops like 2.5% every four years. It's a very, very easy climate to elect another Democratic President and it's quickly making it almost impossible for a Republican to ever be elected to that office again.
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Old 09-16-2015, 07:09 PM   #938
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Ultimately, I don't think it matters if Sanders or Clinton or Biden is the Democratic Nominee...especially with the Electoral College. Unless one of those three is mired in some major scandal or just flat out screws up, it won't make a difference and the election result will basically be the same.
I wouldn't be so quick feel safe behind the blue wall electorally. Obama was an exceptional candidate in 08' and popular enough in '12. Kerry and Gore fought a good fight in their time.

Pennsylvania and Wisconsin may not be safe territory depending on the match-up.
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Old 09-16-2015, 07:13 PM   #939
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Except this country is a hell of a lot more liberal (and now undeniably left leaning) than it was in 1972. Sanders would do just fine as what he preaches is pretty much what Obama pretended to support in 2008. How will it be hard for Sanders to become President when Democrats will have gained a five million voter advantage in the last eight years just from Republicans dying? This is in no way the same country it was almost 50 years ago. Sanders and his policies might scare some people in the middle, but he'll make up for that easily by getting a ton of people that otherwise wouldn't vote to show up at the polls.

The white vote alone drops like 2.5% every four years. It's a very, very easy climate to elect another Democratic President and it's quickly making it almost impossible for a Republican to ever be elected to that office again.
Some of what you're saying is correct with demographic changes. I just think Sanders has his limits with reaching beyond his party base.
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Old 09-16-2015, 07:21 PM   #940
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There was a poll before the 2012 election that had Obama at 70%, Romney at 13% and the rest undecided among people that weren't planning to vote. That's a group that ended up being over 40% of the electorate. That's a lot of would be left-leaning voters and the Republicans would already be dead on the national level if everybody voted.

As far as people "in the middle" that do vote, well, there's hardly anybody left that fits the bill. Most of the election ads are geared at getting people to the polls rather than trying to convince the 5% that are total morons and still undecided. Or at least, I hope that's the case, otherwise we're spending billions to convince the stupid...

Anyway, my argument is that the country is so partisan and so clearly left-leaning when people actually bother to vote that there's no doubt Sanders would do just as well as the other Democrats. He only does worse than Biden/Clinton in the heads-up polls simply because a lot of Americans still don't know who the hell he is...but I'll tell you one thing, I'd feel more comfortable with someone running in November '16 with Bernie's platform than with Clinton and her current unfavorable and "not trustworthy" polling results.
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