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Old 11-06-2012, 04:08 AM   #321
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Not really my place but I'd side with LN7 on this one. It's one vote, and I'm sure in the USA one vote isn't going to make a fucking difference. If LN7 votes Libertarian that's not going to be the difference between Romney and Obama. You might as well use your vote on whoever represents your views most closely, even though that party won't win. That's what I'll be doing next Australian election. I don't see how it's a cop-out. Everyone goes "fuck it I'll pick between two" and you're going to be stuck between the same two choices for eternity. I've always been a realist but if you're unhappy you might as well make your voice heard. Particularly given it's not compulsory. A third party gets an extra 0.5% every election and eventually people will pay a little more notice.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:33 AM   #322
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Hard to compare with Australia given we're enlightened enough to have preferential voting. Nobody in Australia voting Green or Democrat or Fundies First is throwing away their vote in the final Labour/Liberal race.

I don't see the big deal in voting third party in the US in a state where the outcome is obvious, since the national popular vote outcome is totally irrelevant, but if you're in a swing state, I'm more sympathetic to the argument that you're wasting your vote if you vote third party. (I'm most sympathetic to the argument that you're wasting your vote if you don't vote Obama.)
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:07 AM   #323
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The fact that Obama did so well in two northern NH towns that usually go GOP is an ominous sign for Romney.
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:45 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Axver
Hard to compare with Australia given we're enlightened enough to have preferential voting. Nobody in Australia voting Green or Democrat or Fundies First is throwing away their vote in the final Labour/Liberal race.
Ahh, but our Constitution was Divinely Inspired, so our absur... err, perfect presidential election system must be preserved forever.

How about this compromise to make everyone happy: the Republican Party is eliminated and the Libertarian Party magically takes its place. That would get rid of all of the social issue absurdity coming from the right. It would also do much better things for foreign affairs. If Gary Johnson were the primary challenger to Barack Obama, I don't think Obama would get away with his drone strikes (my biggest complaint about this administration) so easily. Finally, I would really enjoy an economic debate between ideologically-consistent Keynesians and ideologically-consistent Classicists (borderline Austrians?).
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:08 AM   #325
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Obama is an ideologically-consistent Keynesian now? Okay...
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:18 AM   #326
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Obama is an ideologically-consistent Keynesian now? Okay...
He's not. I should explain more. I think that, if there was an ideologically consistent "other side", the Democrats would be somewhat more likely to hold down a consistent position. I think. Or maybe not.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:22 AM   #327
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The fact that Obama did so well in two northern NH towns that usually go GOP is an ominous sign for Romney.
You mean Dixville Notch? What's the other one? Dixville was 5/5 Romney /Obama.

As for Elizabeth Warren all polls have that one very close. I would love to see MA have our first female Senator and that would be a QUALIFIED one. And I think she's qualified. Scott Brown touts himself as the second most bipartisan Senator but I just don't see it. If Obama is reelected that won't matter, one guy up against all that. Same if Romney is elected, don't think Brown will go all Democrat on us. One guy just can't create bipartisanship in that mess. That's why people like Olympia Snowe are getting out. And his voting record seems sort of fuzzy in that regard.

Come on, we have Republicans criticizing Christie for being too complimentary of Obama re Hurricane Sandy. That's the situation we're in. The story came out this week that Christie was Mitt's first choice for VP, but he did things to tick them off.

About third party -like I said in the other thread, if you're comfortable with the idea of possibly helping Mitt win then that's fine. But you're not going to change the system by voting that way today. I get and admire the desire to change it.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:35 AM   #328
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Not really my place but I'd side with LN7 on this one. It's one vote, and I'm sure in the USA one vote isn't going to make a fucking difference.
Keep in mind that in 2000 the election was decided by a less than 600 vote difference in Florida. That's only a few people saying that one vote won't make a difference.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:46 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Popmartijn

Keep in mind that in 2000 the election was decided by a less than 600 vote difference in Florida. That's only a few people saying that one vote won't make a difference.


Exactly.

I am about to go vote in VA (likely for the last time, we'll probably move back into DC itself in the next few months) and I really do feel like my vote counts.

It's very energizing. Was hard to sleep last night.

Vote for third parties all you want. But don't be surprised when you get blamed for 2000. At least defend that rather than pass it off on something else. Just let us know that it was more important to try to get a candidate to 5% of the vote than it was to prevent the worst president in all our lifetimes to win the office in 2000.

At least own that.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:58 AM   #330
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Yes. If you don't have a problem with what happened in the 8 years under Bush. You do have to think about that.

I always think my vote counts. Especially as a woman. We had to work to even have the right to vote. I never take that for granted.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:20 AM   #331
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I always think my vote counts. Especially as a woman. We had to work to even have the right to vote. I never take that for granted.
I understand what you're saying, but do you think you would still feel that your voice counted if your were a republican in your state voting in the presidential election?
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:27 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen

You mean Dixville Notch? What's the other one? Dixville was 5/5 Romney /Obama.
Yes, and Hart's Location is the other, where Obama surprisingly easily won.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:35 AM   #333
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Keep in mind that in 2000 the election was decided by a less than 600 vote difference in Florida. That's only a few people saying that one vote won't make a difference.
yeah, exactly. your vote always matters and makes a difference. i live in a red state, but there's at least a chance we'll go blue. if i'd gone "fuck it" and voted third party, there's a lesser chance we'd go blue right there. even for something like a more localised election like a senator, it matters.

if you live somewhere like alabama or somewhere in new england where they're incredibly red or blue and there's not even a chance of the state turning even purple, i still look at it as wasting an opportunity to try. this whole trying to change the system by voting third party won't work. i notice my post where i stated our voting system lends itself to a two-party system got completely ignored. anything to keep making the case for third party votes i guess.

i wouldn't advocate speeding because you disagree with the speed limit laws or committing a particular felony because you think it should be a misdemeanour. this system of trying to change the way things are by doing the opposite doesn't work. people have railed against tipping for years by not tipping and have only made themselves look like jerks to their friends and waiters. restaurant owners haven't come any closer to seeing the light and paying waiters a liveable wage.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:38 AM   #334
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Been in line for over half an hour so far.

Lots of professional under 40s in line.

It's such a crock that voting is on a Tuesday. People have to get to work. I'm glad I have some flexibility but I can see why some people -- particularly the poor, working 2 jobs and likely harder than most of us -- might just say, "fuggit."

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Old 11-06-2012, 08:39 AM   #335
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I understand what you're saying, but do you think you would still feel that your voice counted if your were a republican in your state voting in the presidential election?
I didn't say anything about Republican, I'd still feel the same. It has nothing to do with party for me. Even in the state I live in. I was talking about not voting and saying that your vote doesn't count.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:41 AM   #336
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Yes, and Hart's Location is the other, where Obama surprisingly easily won.
Where the heck is that? Sorry, I'm ignorant about little towns like that. In MA too.

Another thing about not voting. Look at all the people who lost everything in Sandy. And they're getting out to vote.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:49 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Irvine511

It's such a crock that voting is on a Tuesday. People have to get to work. I'm glad I have some flexibility but I can see why some people -- particularly the poor, working 2 jobs and likely harder than most of us -- might just say, "fuggit".
That's why absentee and early voting is so important. Even the early voting places had huge lines. So at least some people will make every effort and they are.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:55 AM   #338
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Still in line ...
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:01 AM   #339
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I always think my vote counts. Especially as a woman. We had to work to even have the right to vote. I never take that for granted.
yes I fully believe in this too (and always have) as a woman.
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:07 AM   #340
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I didn't say anything about Republican, I'd still feel the same. It has nothing to do with party for me. Even in the state I live in. I was talking about not voting and saying that your vote doesn't count.
My apologies. I was trying (and did a poor job of it) to make a point about the Electoral College. Your state and the current state I reside in are notorious for going blue with each presidential election. Some colleagues (who often vote republican) of mine from both states feel like their votes don't matter. Yet, they vote every election.
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