2008 U.S. Presidential Campaign Discussion Thread-Part 11

[Earnie Shavers]

Originally Posted by Diemen

A taste of their own medicine? Did Biden personally interview Palin? Besides, if getting asked tough questions is the medicine in question here, then I think someone gave Palin a placebo.

They're not tough questions, and neither were the ones asked of Palin.

[Diemen]

I agree that these aren't tough questions. They were presented as such, but I don't think a question arguing that Obama is a Marxist qualifies as all that tough.

[Vincent Vega]

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

Socialism is not communism. Most Political scientists look at socialism as democratic and communism as dictatorial. When someone says I want to spread the wealth around it's a legitimate question.

I also enjoyed it because I like people to taste their own medicine. Palin went through so much worse.

Also the Obama/Biden camp announced they won't be doing interviews with that station.

It's not communism, yet it is not the political form of Sweden. "Spreading wealth", or a fair income distribution, is not equal to socialism. It's dishonest, and I don't think any political scientist would do the same, to take that principle and attribute it solely to socialism.
A socialist state and a social-democratic state (and Sweden plays a special role in that kind of politics) are not to be confused, mixed or deliberately put as one.
And don't kid yourself, to call something, anything, socialism when it comes to US politics is clearly intended to move the direction into a particular direction. It's no secret that you just have to try to imply socialism and some people will think twice about who they are voting for.

I don't get the "own medicine" line either. Palin got at least intelligent questions which she should be able to answer. Her answers were awful. But it wasn't Biden or the democratic campaign that asked those questions.

The questions went clearly beyond just asking tough questions, they were outright unintelligent. I could understand the Republican campaign as well if they decided not to take questions by that station again.

[deep]

Originally Posted by Vincent Vega

It's not communism, yet it is not the political form of Sweden. "Spreading wealth", or a fair income distribution, is not equal to socialism.

I really don't know what things are like in Germany or Sweden

and I would not call Obama a Marxist or even a socialist

I do believe it is safe to say that most Americans do not believe it is the job of the American Government to be involved in "the redistribution of wealth".

I don't know what you are doing in Montana, perhaps you are on a college campus, where the concept of "the redistribution of wealth" does not alarm students.

But I am certain that if you ask the typical person on the street, they will not favor the concept at all.

[Earnie Shavers]

He’s going to take money away from Joe the Plumber and give it to gays who are going to use it to come around and take away Joe the Plumbers guns. Or something like that. And then the revolution begins!
PALIN/HANNITY 2012!
Are none of you patriots?!?

[martha]

Originally Posted by Vincent Vega

It's not communism, yet it is not the political form of Sweden. "Spreading wealth", or a fair income distribution, is not equal to socialism. It's dishonest, and I don't think any political scientist would do the same, to take that principle and attribute it solely to socialism.

Clearly those political scientists would be part of the elite.

[martha]

Originally Posted by deep

I do believe it is safe to say that most Americans do not believe it is the job of the American Government to be involved in "the redistribution of wealth".



But I am certain that if you ask the typical person on the street, they will not favor the concept at all.

Can I ask them about redistributing my tax dollars to bankers?

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by deep

I really don't know what things are like in Germany or Sweden

and I would not call Obama a Marxist or even a socialist

I do believe it is safe to say that most Americans do not believe it is the job of the American Government to be involved in "the redistribution of wealth".

I don't know what you are doing in Montana, perhaps you are on a college campus, where the concept of "the redistribution of wealth" does not alarm students.

But I am certain that if you ask the typical person on the street, they will not favor the concept at all.

what do you think taxes do?

[Utoo]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

what do you think taxes do?

QF-the-MF-T

[Irvine511]

it was a collective "you," btw.

i think deep knows what taxes do.

this is a pet peeve i have with Americans en masse. it's as if they think roads pave themselves.

[purpleoscar]

Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar

What does this have to do with the Fairness Doctine? Or Bill Clinton?

They don't like to answer conservative questions. Can you imagine Palin sticking her finger at Couric and yelling at her? It has to do with the attitude of avoiding questions.

[Bluer White]

Originally Posted by martha

Can I ask them about redistributing my tax dollars to bankers?

[JOFO]

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

They don't like to answer conservative questions. Can you imagine Palin sticking her finger at Couric and yelling at her? It has to do with the attitude of avoiding questions.

Clinton wasn't running for office at the time, and had a record of service in the vault.

[Tiger Edge]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

what do you think taxes do?

I brought that up to a conservative this weekend and the only retort he had to that was, "You guys are just socialist."

Circular reasoning, it's perfect.

[toscano]

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

They don't like to answer conservative questions. Can you imagine Palin sticking her finger at Couric and yelling at her? It has to do with the attitude of avoiding questions.

If Couric had asked some stupid questions Palin would have won a bit of respect if she'd done that.

As it was Couric asked straightforward questions which exposed Palin as completely unsuitable for the task at hand.

[purpleoscar]

Originally Posted by Vincent Vega

It's not communism, yet it is not the political form of Sweden. "Spreading wealth", or a fair income distribution, is not equal to socialism. It's dishonest, and I don't think any political scientist would do the same, to take that principle and attribute it solely to socialism.
A socialist state and a social-democratic state (and Sweden plays a special role in that kind of politics) are not to be confused, mixed or deliberately put as one.
And don't kid yourself, to call something, anything, socialism when it comes to US politics is clearly intended to move the direction into a particular direction. It's no secret that you just have to try to imply socialism and some people will think twice about who they are voting for.

I don't get the "own medicine" line either. Palin got at least intelligent questions which she should be able to answer. Her answers were awful. But it wasn't Biden or the democratic campaign that asked those questions.

The questions went clearly beyond just asking tough questions, they were outright unintelligent. I could understand the Republican campaign as well if they decided not to take questions by that station again.

What a political scientist would say is that we are all socialist to a certain extent and it's true the use of words are misused for political terms, but conservatives believe that Sweden (where $30,000 American or above gets 70% personal tax) is the ultimate goal for democratic socialists and yes they do read Karl Marx.

Das Capital is more influential than the Communist Manifesto because Marx couldn't describe the state of communism in any concrete way. Now Sweden lowered their corporate taxes so that jobs would still exist there and not move to Britain like it used to but that just bolsters the argument against shifting the tax burden to corporations.

Obama, in 2001 Interview, Lamented Failure of Civil Rights Movement to Redistribute Wealth - FOXNews.com Elections

This article also looks at what Obama would like to do. Also when you add Barney Frank's comments you get the idea there will be more tax shifts in the future. There are already welfare programs in the U.S. how much more is needed? I don't believe that Obama and Biden could go to Sweden in 4 years but the ultimate goal is that over time. If I did the questions I would focus on corporate taxes more and less on Karl Marx, but talking about Sweden is definately appropriate. I don't think anyone should avoid media questions unless they start swearing at the guy or getting physically agressive. Palin did her (edited) interviews and it's time for others to take their lumps and that won't happen until more conservative questions are asked. I'm actually surprised that those questions were even asked. In my country hard questions are usually reserved for anyone who threatens the liberal party (Conservative, NDP). If you think the debates are messy in the U.S. try and find video of the Canadian debates with 4 left wing parties after the 1 conservative party in a roundtable style with people shouting over each other. We also have the CRTC which is like the fairness doctrine. Fox News was actually not available until recently because of it. Eventually people complained they could get CNN and why not Fox News?

[purpleoscar]

Originally Posted by cydewaze

AFAIK the Fairness Doctrine's been dead since Reagan killed it back in the 80's.

Just an update for you. They tried to pass it recently and it failed. Some democrats didn't go for it. Phew!

Senator Bingaman wants to reinstate it.

[purpleoscar]

Originally Posted by Tiger Edge

I brought that up to a conservative this weekend and the only retort he had to that was, "You guys are just socialist."

Circular reasoning, it's perfect.

Well if a conservative said that to you then they need to pick up a book.

Taxes go to the government. They are put into social programs, but much of that money goes to bureaucrats who get paid defined benefit pensions and good salaries to administer the money. After they get paid what is left goes to the program. People who rely on welfare programs usually don't like what they get and wish for more. The problem is that there have to be people that don't receive the benefit and pay the taxes for the programs to exist.

This burden can make it harder for people to stand on their own 2 feet so many in the middle class start adopting the programs out of necessity. Companies that want to exist also pass the cost of increased fees and taxes onto the population because they can. This can lead to hiring freezes, more layoffs or just an increase prices. Who wants that?

Now as I belabored before the role of saving money for your retirement also is affected by increased taxes. This slows down the accumulation of capital that is necessary for starting new companies or buying out crappy old ones.

This is good finally some back and forth in this thread without snarky comments. I like this.

[Bluer White]

purpleoscar, are you for progressive taxation or for a flat tax?

[toscano]

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

Well if a conservative said that to you then they need to pick up a book.

Taxes go to the government. They are put into social programs,

And they are put into defense spending, and they pay the Military, and the FDA, and the FCC, and FEMA, the INS, etc. Funny how you left those out.

They are also used to bail out rich bankers when they screw up.