2008 U.S. Presidential Campaign Discussion Thread-Part 10.

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Why is it that scorning intellectuals in their speeches is not equivalent to not welcoming them, STING?
 
McCain finished in the top 98% of his college class. I suppose that makes him intellectual.


1. Have you ever tried to get accepted to one of the 4 military academies?

2. Look at what John McCain did for 23 years as a Naval Officer. Its difficult if not impossible to reach the top ranks of the military without being smart and intellectual.

3. Look at the decisions he has made has a congressman and Senator over the past 27 years! He understood why it was vital to this nation's security to push Saddam's military out of Kuwait in 1991 unlike Joe Biden and probably Barack Obama. He has actually opposed his own party on a variety of issues. When has Barack Obama EVER taken on his own party?
 
1. No.

2. Or have ancestry in the military to help you make your way up.

3. Opinion.
 
Why is it that scorning intellectuals in their speeches is not equivalent to not welcoming them, STING?

Because its about certain intellectuals who support policies that are wrong for this country, not intellectuals as a whole, or McCain would be implicating himself.
 
2. Or have ancestry in the military to help you make your way up.

Sorry, but that aspect of civilian society is not found in the military.



3. Opinion.

Its a fact that John McCain supported the removal of Saddam's military from Kuwait in 1991 and Joe Biden did not. Its also a fact that John McCain has opposed his own party on multiple issues and Barack Obama has not.

Successful policies and the ability to step away from ones own party and oppose it when you feel it is wrong are excellent examples that are often found in intellectual individuals.
 
Your fetishisation of the military grows tiresome.

Ultimately, who pays for your precious military?

It's us in the civilian world, with our taxes.
 
If I recall correctly, the main line against Obama for a while was that he was an elitist, not that he was a liberal elitist. To try and deny that the Republicans have been trying to bring scorn upon unapologetic intellectualism is ignoring reality.

If you take a good look at McCain's military record you would realize that had he not had the McCain lineage before him, he would most likely have not made it past the military academy. And definitely would not have still had his wings after crashing two planes (prior to his crash in Vietnam).
 
Your fetishisation of the military grows tiresome.

Ultimately, who pays for your precious military?

It's us in the civilian world, with our taxes.


Your attempts to characterize members of the forum grows tiresome.

Its certainly not in keeping with the rules of the forum.

It is ultimately a waste of time for those reading this thread, especially your own.
 
If I recall correctly, the main line against Obama for a while was that he was an elitist, not that he was a liberal elitist. To try and deny that the Republicans have been trying to bring scorn upon unapologetic intellectualism is ignoring reality.

The reality is that the Republican party is no less intellectual than the Democratic Party.



you take a good look at McCain's military record you would realize that had he not had the McCain lineage before him, he would most likely have not made it past the military academy. And definitely would not have still had his wings after crashing two planes (prior to his crash in Vietnam).

Even if that were so, you don't actually have to graduate from the Naval Academy in order to be a pilot in the Navy.

Accidents don't in of themselves cause you to lose your wings, poor decisions and judgements do. Unknown to many civilians, accidents, some of them fatal, happen every year in the military.
 
McCain calls comments by Georgia Democrat 'shocking' - CNN.com

Sen. John McCain called a statement by a Georgia congressman Saturday, which compared the feeling at recent Republican rallies to those of segregationist George Wallace, "a brazen and baseless attack."

Rep. John Lewis, D-Georgia, who has been praised by McCain in the past, issued his statement after several days of headline-grabbing anger aimed at Democratic nominee Barack Obama from some attendees at campaign rallies of McCain and running mate Gov. Sarah Palin.

"What I am seeing reminds me too much of another destructive period in American history. Sen. McCain and Gov. Palin are sowing the seeds of hatred and division, and there is no need for this hostility in our political discourse," Lewis said in a statement.

"George Wallace never threw a bomb. He never fired a gun, but he created the climate and the conditions that encouraged vicious attacks against innocent Americans who were simply trying to exercise their constitutional rights. Because of this atmosphere of hate, four little girls were killed on Sunday morning when a church was bombed in Birmingham, Alabama," wrote the Democrat.

...

But the Arizona senator blasted Lewis' remarks, and called on Obama to repudiate them.

"Congressman John Lewis' comments represent a character attack against Gov. Sarah Palin and me that is shocking and beyond the pale," he said in a Saturday afternoon statement released by his campaign.

"The notion that legitimate criticism of Sen. Obama's record and positions could be compared to Gov. George Wallace, his segregationist policies and the violence he provoked is unacceptable and has no place in this campaign. I am saddened that John Lewis, a man I've always admired, would make such a brazen and baseless attack on my character and the character of the thousands of hardworking Americans who come to our events to cheer for the kind of reform that will put America on the right track.

"I call on Sen. Obama to immediately and personally repudiate these outrageous and divisive comments that are so clearly designed to shut down debate 24 days before the election. Our country must return to the important debate about the path forward for America."

He really has no shame anymore. Anybody with an ounce of reading comprehension can look at Lewis' comments and realize that he was not talking about criticisms of Obama's record, but of the tone of the rallies, and the hateful comments and anger that went completely unchecked from the stage. To try and spin this around as if it's Lewis' comments that are "beyond the pale" is spineless, and then to have the gall to call on Obama to repudiate the comments and return to the important issues of the day is really quite laughable.

I hope Obama has the guts to stand up to this and call it for what it is.
 
Lewis could not have hit the nail on the head more. McCain and Palin are allowing hate to spread just to not alienate that relatively large, ignorant portion of the Republican base.

That part of the base has no equal in the Democratic Party. And that's the point. There's a sector of Republicans that pride themselves on not being "elitist" (a buzz word for well spoken and intellectual), and to deny that is to ignore a large part of modern American politics.
 
Bleh.
I KNEW it was going to get ugly and come down to race.....I'm surprised it took so long.

Fucking racists.:down:
 
That part of the base has no equal in the Democratic Party. And that's the point. There's a sector of Republicans that pride themselves on not being "elitist" (a buzz word for well spoken and intellectual), and to deny that is to ignore a large part of modern American politics.

You realize that West Virginia is historically a democratic state. The Democrats have not won the White House since 1916 without winning West Virginia. We know how well Barack Obama did in the Democratic Primary there. So please, stop this nonsense in saying that its only parts of the Republican party that act and feel this way. If that was the case, Barack Obama would not have been complaining about western Pennsylvanians clinging to Guns and Religion in the Democratic Primary in the spring.
 
Lewis could not have hit the nail on the head more. McCain and Palin are allowing hate to spread just to not alienate that relatively large, ignorant portion of the Republican base.

That part of the base has no equal in the Democratic Party. And that's the point. There's a sector of Republicans that pride themselves on not being "elitist" (a buzz word for well spoken and intellectual), and to deny that is to ignore a large part of modern American politics.


No, to be fair, McCain condemned it. Soundings are coming from his camp that he is against this type of behaviour. Of course, it could be just a tactic but I don't believe that it is just that, myself.

There is, believe it or not, a middle ground between the Strongbow point of view that McCain is perfect in every way, and the alternative point of view, sometimes vented on FYM, that McCain is a conniving bollix that will do anything to get elected.
 
Its as uninformed and anti-intellectual a statement as any other statement in here.

Go tell it to David Brooks, of your conservative Republican persuasion.

I can't believe you are standing there with a straight face and telling us that intellectuals and "elites" have not been scorned by the Republicans. Did you watch the GOP convention this year? Did you not hear Romney's speech? Giuliani's speech? Please. Get a dose of reality check.
 
Yes, there are racists of every political persuasion, including among independents. And they aren't the majority in either major party.

I don't, however, recall reading about shouts of "Kill him!" "Off with his head!" "Traitor!" and "Terrorist!" at Hillary Clinton rallies, and I doubt that's mere coincidence.
 
No, to be fair, McCain condemned it. Soundings are coming from his camp that he is against this type of behaviour. Of course, it could be just a tactic but I don't believe that it is just that, myself.

There was a moment in those clips, after the shout of "kill him!" came over, that McCain looked up and paused, and a look of concern passed over his face. Then he continued on.

To me that's troubling. Especially with the delay between those kinds of remarks and finally a plea for a respectful campaign. It's the kind of delay that says (to me) "ok, we're getting pummelled in the press and the polls over this, let's not continue down this path" rather than "this is obviously wrong and I need to speak up."
 
There was a moment in those clips, after the shout of "kill him!" came over, that McCain looked up and paused, and a look of concern passed over his face. Then he continued on.

To me that's troubling. Especially with the delay between those kinds of remarks and finally a plea for a respectful campaign. It's the kind of delay that says (to me) "ok, we're getting pummelled in the press and the polls over this, let's not continue down this path" rather than "this is obviously wrong and I need to speak up."

I tend to take a different view, but possibly I have a more favourable impression of McCain than you. I never really classed him as a true-believin' neo-con. Of course, I could be wrong.
 
Actually I agree with financeguy that I think McCain isn't a racist and probably this isn't the way he wants to win. However, it is also extremely duplicitous of him to be standing up (to some degree) against these loons while Palin is going around inciting them. I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways.
 
I never really classed him as a true-believin' neo-con.

Neither did I. I don't think McCain is a racist. I do however think he was going down a very dangerous and poorly chosen path (to put it mildly) in an attempt to rally support. My hope is that yes, he has realized that now, but then as anitram has pointed out, he can't have it both ways. It comes across as disingenuous when only one member of the team is calling for a respectful campaign.
 
Neither did I. I don't think McCain is a racist. I do however think he was going down a very dangerous and poorly chosen path (to put it mildly) in an attempt to rally support. My hope is that yes, he has realized that now, but then as anitram has pointed out, he can't have it both ways. It comes across as disingenuous when only one member of the team is calling for a respectful campaign.

I agree. I feel he's back himself in a corner...
 
It’s because Sarah Palin probably is "one of us" (them). She's more than happy to stoke those feelings, she probably isn't sure whether Obama is an evil secret Muslim or not herself. It's not the elitist thing that's getting them angry, it's that. Go to a site like Free Republic and just have a look around. The ignorance and fear is absolutely stunning, and it's from there that the anger is getting whipped up. It's certainly not about healthcare or tax.

I'd like to think that McCain genuinely doesn't like it and doesn't want to either go down or win that way. I think he sold his campaign out a long time ago, but if you notice, he has pushed back a little a few times. Whether thats just for appearence or not could be disputed, but I would like to think there is some decency there.

Like the wide open racism in the primaries, when I wanted Clinton to get up there and say something like - "If you are not voting for Obama simply because he's black" (remember people were openly saying that in, I think, West Virginia?) "then I don't want your vote either" - I'd love to see McCain do something similar now.
 
As a supporter of McCain in 2000, the only solace I take is a full on, soul searching mea culpa. next year about the tactics that he's been forced into.

You can tell by his reaction to the lady who called Obama an "arab" that he loathes this.

He's got so much pressure behind him to go this route... don't completely throw McCain under the bus just yet. Palin, I would suspect she's a true believer.
 
Democrats out-register Republicans in swing states - Telegraph

In eight swing states that could decide the election, Democrats have out-registered Republicans by ratios ranging from 2 - 1 to 6 - 1.

With electoral rolls now closed in most states, Mr Obama has a clear advantage among first-time registrants, many of whom are under 30 or African Americans. The big question mark over new voters is how many of them will show up on Nov 4.

Historically their turn out rate has been significantly lower than regular voters. Even allowing for that, Democrats are quietly confident that a silent minority of new voters are lying in wait to deliver the White House - and cancel out the voters who may be unwilling to support a black candidate.

If new voters turn out at the same rate as in 2004 - and cast their ballots in line with their registration - then Mr Obama is set to win the swing states he needs to beat Senator John McCain.
 
As a supporter of McCain in 2000, the only solace I take is a full on, soul searching mea culpa. next year about the tactics that he's been forced into.

You can tell by his reaction to the lady who called Obama an "arab" that he loathes this.

He's got so much pressure behind him to go this route... don't completely throw McCain under the bus just yet. Palin, I would suspect she's a true believer.

Yeah... When McCain loses he'll end up looking like a complete tool. He's turned his back on almost every piece of integrity he had left... It's actually pretty sad.
 
It alienates independents, doesn’t bring them in. There’s no need to keep whipping up the base, certainly not from McCain anyway, he’s got Palin out there and there are plenty who even if McCain puts them offside will now still show up and vote for her or against Obama. They’re on board now and that won’t change. He has nothing to lose and a bit to gain (independents, his reputation/legacy) from coming out and putting all of it down, something along the lines of: He’s a Christian. He’s an American. He’s a good guy, a great family man. He’s worked hard, he’s earned it. None of this is disputable. I absolutely, truthfully, do not believe anything otherwise and if you do, frankly, you are wrong. You should however definitely not vote for him if you believe (onto policy/issues differences)… Fat chance of that happening, I know, but it would certainly save his reputation and would only gain him votes, not lose them, as is clearly happening now while he lets ignorance, racism, fear and hate control the tone and message of his campaign.
 
You can tell by his reaction to the lady who called Obama an "arab" that he loathes this. [/I].

Yes, the look on his face and the reaction to that were quite telling. A lot of people thought he should have more forcefully put her down, but you could see he was floored by it, in a “My god, I can’t believe this is really happening” kind of way. More sad than angry. Sometimes, like at that moment, I think he looks defeated by more than just Obama, but by his own campaign as well, and that’s why I like to think that there’s still some decency in there.
 
As a supporter of McCain in 2000, the only solace I take is a full on, soul searching mea culpa. next year about the tactics that he's been forced into.

You can tell by his reaction to the lady who called Obama an "arab" that he loathes this.

He's got so much pressure behind him to go this route... don't completely throw McCain under the bus just yet. Palin, I would suspect she's a true believer.

But doesn't the fact that he picked a "true believer" as his running mate say something about him? It says he either didn't mind that mentality in his running mate or he wasn't aware of it.
 
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