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Old 10-22-2008, 04:52 PM   #861
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
i now live in the fakest part of fake Virginia -- communist Arlington!




*runs to get a can of PINKO spray-piant to paint up Irving!*


ETA:
Then would YOU like to choose your very own hue/ tint/ shade of "Pinko-Pink", Irving?

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Old 10-22-2008, 04:54 PM   #862
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my people are known for good taste.

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Old 10-22-2008, 04:59 PM   #863
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Oh leave them alone, they don't have time to look it up, they're too busy getting the government to prop up the "free market", they'd never do THAT ina socialist country.......
...tears........

Quote:
Originally Posted by toscano View Post
"Less Government" (except in cases of federal bans on gay marriage, abortion, propping up the banks.....)


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Old 10-22-2008, 05:12 PM   #864
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Uh Oh, now Oscar is going to come in here and tell you Warren is just stricken by the guilt of being rich and he's worried about people not liking him...
OK..... then ........


.... Warren Buffet please meet your other guilty rich people pals- FDR, First Lady Eleanor, Teddy Roosevelt & RFK.


The super conservatives have never forgiven FDR and later others for giving us Socialistic Programs like Social Security, Disability, Medicare & Medicaid etc.

Rushbo......
"Roosevelt is Dead....." approx next part.......... And we're doing something about his policies..........
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:43 PM   #865
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See, here's why I've always said not to be counting chickens re. the presidential race - Too many stupid people
tosc- it's not so much even that as this, now:

there are at least 2 current frivolous law-suits by Republicans in 2 states - one in Indiana, I think, that will throw out hundreds of thousands, possibly a million new voters> And it's very possible that the people who voted EARLY to avoid having their votes screwed with will also get tossed out!


If you're the praying or good vibes kind--- pray/vibe that these Judges do the right thing, and stop assisting Voter Suppression techniques.
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:26 PM   #866
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*crickets*


bye
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:37 PM   #867
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History will prove that Iraq was not a war of necessity.
I'm glad you put compassionate in quotes, for it was nothing of the sort...

But once again you miss my point, it's not a "if Republicans do it why can't we", it's about quit using the slogans of yesteryear, they no longer exist. The Republicans are not small government.
So if Republicans are not small government and what are Democrats? You get my meaning? There is ticket that wants to reform the Republican party and control spending. The other ticket is into redistributionism. It's clear that voting for democrats because past Republicans spent too much doesn't make sense. Are the democrats the alternative that can balance the budget? What promises will Obama have to nix in order to accomplish that?

The idea that Republicans don't include people who want small government is not true. Yes there are big government Republicans but that's what McCain and Palin want to change. Big spending republicans also reflects the American voter. Maybe they will demand more out of congress when they finally understand that bankruptcy is not good no matter what entitlements are spent on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Wow, just wow.
Yeah when I read Symposium it was exactly what I thought. There's an entire section where a general is trying hard to screw Socrates. You have to read it to believe it. At least Plato focused on the goal of looking at love being in different levels and love of the forms being the best, the next best love of character, and the least a love of the flesh.

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Man you are all over the place with this paragraph. Yes you need a job to save, but that's not what you said, I pointed out to you that you have contradicted yourself from last week.
No contradiction. I was talking about what an individual should do in regards to savings. I haven't changed my point of view on that. If the government takes more money from corporations and they layoff more people then it's harder to save when you don't have a job.

So the point is don't increase taxes on corporations. It's not difficult to understand. The government can't do much to help you but it can do a lot of harm. Let's limit the government to what it can do. Once you start with redistributionism for more equal outcomes where does it stop?

If people save while they still have a job during the recession they are doing the right thing. Even in Sweden saving can give you benefits, but if you make 30,000/year U.S. or more you will pay 70% to the government so you better like what the government gives you because if the quality is not good you will have to find savings in that 30% net pay.

At least Sweden has a lower corporate tax rate. Why do they? Because they want companies to stay. Get it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Who has the typical attitude that government can increase our wealth? I've never met anyone who has that attitude.

Then you get into your psychoanalytical envy bullshit again...
The democratic party believes that the government is the solution to the economic problems. What do you think the Community Reinvestment Act is for? It's to have government force banks to include more risky loans to help poor people.

Envy, envy, envy! You hate my envy argument. I think envy is a HUGE part of the human psyche and should not be considered a small issue. I'm confident that everybody (including you) who succeeded at anything in their lives has seen envy in others, especially in work environments. Bullying in office workplaces are often related to envy.

I love this book. Lots of good examples:

Amazon.com: ENVY: HELMUT SCHOECK: Books


This is a good site that gives some solutions to what can trigger envy in the workplace.

The Green-Eyed Monster - Keeping Envy Out of the Workplace

Examples

Jealousy, envy common problems at workplace

The Main Drive Behind the Bully: Envy | Bully Free at Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
And then you go on to talk about how even if the middle class does get money they will just live out of their means. What does this have to do with anything? Do you want the government to come in and control the middle class spending? You aren't making sense.
Well Obama wants tax cuts for the middle class and to increase corporate taxes. Most people in the middle class don't run corporations and they have currently a low savings rate. If they spend more money (from Obama's tax cuts) instead of saving/paying down debt it won't do much. I'm only hoping that people will save money no matter what tax plan occurs. It's still possible if you have a job.

We want the productive classes to reinvest their profits and not have it taxed because that creates more job opportunities. See the Sweden example above. If you are going to do redistribution then pushing for higher corporate taxes when we want companies to be attracted to North America will kill jobs. I want individuals to save, of course, but they need jobs first.

The reason to vote for the rich to get stuck with an increasing tax bill only sounds good if you look at individuals being envious of the rich and wanting to stick it to them.

So in summary. Keep personal taxes as they are and corporate taxes as they are. Cut spending. Then when the budget is balanced start paying down the debt. Once interest payments are starting to reduce you can lower taxes more permanently. McCain wants to lower taxes right away but he better find enough savings in government expenditures to balance the budget.

As individuals you can make a budget and map out what you want to have as a nest egg for your retirement and start following the savings plan. If people don't follow their own budgets and continue with huge debt loads they are not going to achieve the retirement they want whether Obama or McCain win. But if McCain wins you will likely get a job if you lose one (and if well educated maybe not lose your job)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Once again, where does this come from? Who is talking about forced hiring? I know one canidate that has incentitives to keep tech jobs in the US, and it's not McCain.
My point was that companies don't hire people for philanthropic reasons so you you need incentives for people to do this. Allowing companies to reinvest their profits will allow them to grow faster and hire people.

Lower corporate taxes brings it's own incentive. Higher corporate taxes will not keep jobs in the U.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
But it doesn't happen in practice.
If they save their money it does. If they don't it doesn't. The "trickle down" is your pay cheque. What you do with your pay cheque is up to you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Once again, a lot of words, but nothing really said. Yes, people need to save, but like you said they need a decent job in order to save. Do you know how many people are living paycheck to paycheck?
They didn't have to live pay cheque to pay cheque. Why didn't they get an education? What's the point of having training and school if people don't take advantage of it? My dad was an immigrant and had low paying jobs all his life but he controlled his expenses because he didn't have this pride related to a standard of living he felt he deserved. It wasn't fun to do the savings but it yielded a decent retirement for him and he will have an inheritance to give that his father never gave him. There are lots of budgeting tools to help you get back on your feet. Looking at the consumption you see in any mall you can tell people find money for all kinds of crap and still say they can't save. Of course they can save. They just don't want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
But get off your savings thing, for you can't ever force people to save, focus on what we can do.
My point is that there are always opportunities to save and people are not honest about their spending habits. We can't force people to save but the necessity is there if they want a decent retirement that has some dignity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Can you give an example of where this is happening in America or Canada?
All democracies have lobbyists that compete for tax payers money. They all vote for parties that support their funding. Why do you think McCain and Palin are scary to those people? It's their jobs. If a person has a useless job in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac they will donate money and vote for parties that protect them. If special interests get their way most of the time people who vote (and aren't part of a special interest group) feel that politicians never do what they are supposed to and follow lobbyists first. This adds to voter apathy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Just like in all walks of life yes this is true for some. But there are also very talented folks in the middle class that didn't have the right connection. There are some born with a silver spoon, and some born without a spoon. So don't give me this crap about incentive. You honestly think some folks are going to purposely work less because they might make the next tax bracket even though they'll be making more at the end of the day? Give me a break, your grasp on economics makes my brain hurt sometimes.
Yes you can be born with a silver spoon in your mouth and that causes envy amongst people who aren't but I say that it's not the right attitude. You have to find equanimity and focus on your plan for life. Many people who are rich are extremely spoiled and not happy. That's why I like philosophy a lot, and it covers desire and know it needs to be controlled. The west has lost it's understanding of goods and their role on happiness. They used to be religious but lost it. Most people got their self-discipline from religion so when they lose it they often go into egoism and consumerism. You don't have to join a religion to find ethics but certainly reading philosophers and reflecting on your life is important.

"A life unexamined is not worth living." ~ Socrates

Prior generations were more thrifty. That has to be taught again for Western civilization to remain healthy and strong. Does anybody care about retirement anymore?
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:43 PM   #868
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Originally Posted by toscano View Post
See, here's why I've always said not to be counting chickens re. the presidential race - Too many stupid people

AP presidential poll: Race tightens in final weeks - Yahoo! News
I’m surprised so many people have forgotten John Kerry, it was only 4 years ago. Wasn’t he leading in the polls right up to the day?

Also, you can never write off Republican dirty bullshit. Of course McCain will pull closer, and off course it will be because of the focus of the last couple of weeks, which no doubt will intensify over the next one and a half.

Repeat after me:

Terrorist/Socialist/Muslim/Not really American/Not Real American.
Terrorist/Socialist/Muslim/Not really American/Not Real American.
Terrorist/Socialist/Muslim/Not really American/Not Real American.

Continue for 4 weeks.
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:44 PM   #869
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
Yes there are big government Republicans but that's what McCain and Palin want to change.

So, are they going to repeal all those laws that allow the US government to spy on its own citizens?

Or is that necessary big government?
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:53 PM   #870
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
There is ticket that wants to reform the Republican party and control spending.

- $150,000 in new clothes and makeup paid for by voters' donations
- Tanning bed installed in the governor's mansion
- Charged Alaskan taxpayers for 300 days' per diem when she was living at home
- $43,900 of taxpayer money for travel for her husband and children from Wasilla to Juneau
- $21,012 of taxpayer money for her children to travel with her to events to which they weren't invited





I call B.S.
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Old 10-22-2008, 07:08 PM   #871
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WTF is McCain saying here? I think he needs a nap.





BTW, I really want a President who inspires a crowd to "boo" other people on a daily basis.
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Old 10-22-2008, 07:23 PM   #872
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they're not booing. they're saying buuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrnnns!
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Old 10-22-2008, 07:24 PM   #873
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To agree or to disagree?

Good question.
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Old 10-22-2008, 07:28 PM   #874
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they're not booing. they're saying buuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrnnns!
See, I was torn between whether they were booing or saying "Manuuuuuuuute" in honor of former basketball behemoth Manute Bol.

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Old 10-22-2008, 07:38 PM   #875
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I really, really, really hate this ultra divisive "this is where people love their country" crap that the McCain campaign is peddling. As if those in big towns don't love their country/work hard for their families/serve their communities/etc. It's pathetic, it's insulting, and in an ideal world should pretty much put the final nail in the coffin of anyone seeking to hold the office of President of the United States of America.

Is this the kind of tenor people want from the President? Someone who freely questions the patriotism of millions of Americans? Someone who all but directly calls his opponent a terrorist, and is proud of that message? I was going to say that John McCain is better than that, but I'm not so sure anymore. I'd like to say that at one point he was better than this.

This country deserves better than the John McCain of today.
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Old 10-22-2008, 07:48 PM   #876
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So if Republicans are not small government and what are Democrats?
You make an artform of missing points. The point is Republicans are claiming to be small government attack Dems by comparing them to communists and socialists but then turn around and play big government themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
Yes there are big government Republicans but that's what McCain and Palin want to change.
Then you haven't been paying attention to their platform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
Big spending republicans also reflects the American voter.



Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
Yeah when I read Symposium it was exactly what I thought. There's an entire section where a general is trying hard to screw Socrates. You have to read it to believe it. At least Plato focused on the goal of looking at love being in different levels and love of the forms being the best, the next best love of character, and the least a love of the flesh.
No, I know what it says, I was just appalled at the stretch you were trying to make... but I guess it's another one of those bigotries you are unable to recognise.


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No contradiction. I was talking about what an individual should do in regards to savings.
I give up... That is not what you said, and I wasn't the only one that called you out on it.

I'm not going to comment on your mixture of personal economy with national and global economy...


Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
All democracies have lobbyists that compete for tax payers money. They all vote for parties that support their funding. Why do you think McCain and Palin are scary to those people? It's their jobs. If a person has a useless job in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac they will donate money and vote for parties that protect them. If special interests get their way most of the time people who vote (and aren't part of a special interest group) feel that politicians never do what they are supposed to and follow lobbyists first. This adds to voter apathy.
WHAT?

McCain is scared of lobbyists? He has very very close ties to lobbyists. You do realize that oil, tabacco, and many others have lobbyists as well, right?

But none of this has to do with "redistributionist policies" which was your whole premise.
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Old 10-22-2008, 08:05 PM   #877
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To be fair, I think in that particular case McCain was specifically responding to Murtha's publically characterizing Western Pennsylvania as "redneck."
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Old 10-22-2008, 08:18 PM   #878
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Originally Posted by Utoo View Post
WTF is McCain saying here? I think he needs a nap.
.
he needs a power nap.

heres a better vid:

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Old 10-22-2008, 08:22 PM   #879
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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
You make an artform of missing points. The point is Republicans are claiming to be small government attack Dems by comparing them to communists and socialists but then turn around and play big government themselves.

Then you haven't been paying attention to their platform.

It's not an artform. There are 2 sets of conservatives. In fact Rush could probably tell you more about the divide. Conservatives who want small government do exist. Some are trying to move to the left and some even support Obama now. Others are not. The public was supporting big spending in the Republicans because they were demanding entitlements. Conservatives in the Republican party were always against it.

The Future of Conservatism

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
No, I know what it says, I was just appalled at the stretch you were trying to make... but I guess it's another one of those bigotries you are unable to recognise.
So you approve of targeting young boys? You should be embarrased. The abuse in ancient Greece was institutional. Even parents were okay with their boy having men call on them and bring gifts. I'd rather be called a bigot and protect minors than feed them to the perverted wolves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
I give up... That is not what you said, and I wasn't the only one that called you out on it.

I'm not going to comment on your mixture of personal economy with national and global economy...
Don't misunderestimate me!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
WHAT?

McCain is scared of lobbyists? He has very very close ties to lobbyists. You do realize that oil, tabacco, and many others have lobbyists as well, right?

But none of this has to do with "redistributionist policies" which was your whole premise.
He wants to change that. If you don't believe that he's changed you may have a point. He even flirted with joining the democratic party. I think he's changed a new leaf when he picked Sarah Palin. I trust them to handle the economy better than Obama/Biden who love lobbyists and want to expand government.

Now answer this question. Would Obama be better at dealing with lobbyists?

Unless the democratic party moves right and the republicans move left I really see the future of good economics coming from the small government conservatives in the Republican party. Whether you think they exist or not.

With the "fairness" doctrine maybe they won't exist:



Eyeblast.tv - Joy Behar: 'Rush Limbaugh Is A Terrorist'
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Old 10-22-2008, 08:22 PM   #880
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heres a better vid:



Once again----John McCain had his arms broken and was tortured, therefore he has everything it takes to be President of the United States!


And please, don't misconstrue this as belittling McCain's experience, as you and others have done repeatedly when people make this argument. What I'm doing instead is belittling the fact that McCain and his supporters peddle his POW experience as the be-all, end-all qualification for the Presidency. I get it. He was a fucking POW. I have a great deal of respect for that. I still think he'll be a shitty President. Give it a rest.
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