2008 U.S. Presidential Campaign Discussion Thread-Part 10.

[purpleoscar]

Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Uh Oh, now Oscar is going to come in here and tell you Warren is just stricken by the guilt of being rich and he's worried about people not liking him...

That's right. You are learning my young padawan.

[JOFO]

Originally Posted by Utoo

John McCain, Douchebag.


Y'know, usually I'm not the type to post a bunch of quoted articles in a single day. But it seems to me that with only 2 weeks left in this election, the deplorable, despicable side of John McCain emerges almost hourly.

I mean, that mailer is beyond reproach.
We know damn well that it's supposed to mean
Obama is a terrorist.
McCain: go to hell asshole.

[JOFO]

Re: Palin

I just heard on the news her approval rating is lower than Bush's...is that even possible?


.......Wait it gets better; she just said she think the job of the VP is to "get in there with the senate and make policy changes".......



Amazing, really.

[namkcuR]

From last night:

MSNBC pwns Palin(I think Maddow had a segment too but I can't find it)

YouTube - Ignorant Palin talks like 2nd grader to America Chris Mathews Pat Buchanan Mark Green

YouTube - Keith Olbermann Campaign Comment 10-21-08 - Palin and the VP

[Popmartijn]

Originally Posted by Utoo

John McCain, Douchebag.


Y'know, usually I'm not the type to post a bunch of quoted articles in a single day. But it seems to me that with only 2 weeks left in this election, the deplorable, despicable side of John McCain emerges almost hourly.

What's interesting about this, is that there's also this story about McCain and his connection to Iraq.
McCain Transition Chief Aided Saddam In Lobbying Effort

McCain Transition Chief Aided Saddam In Lobbying Effort
William Timmons, the Washington lobbyist who John McCain has named to head his presidential transition team, aided an influence effort on behalf of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein to ease international sanctions against his regime.

The two lobbyists who Timmons worked closely with over a five year period on the lobbying campaign later either pleaded guilty to or were convicted of federal criminal charges that they had acted as unregistered agents of Saddam Hussein's government.

So, what's it going to be...?

[purpleoscar]

Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Well Yolland spelled this one out pretty well. You have always had a problem with the definition of Socialism, we discussed this in one of your first posts in FYM... Why is it Republicans always act like they are small government and small spenders yet they are constantly trying to legislate what goes on in the bedroom and start big expensive wars of choice?

Not all Republicans are conservative, and spending on war is something that would be nice to avoid but enemies prevent that from happening. From your response it shows that George Bush's over spending and "compassionate" conservatism doesn't work and gives ammunition for the democrats. "If Republicans do it why can't we?" That's important to know. Conservatives aren't all that happy with Bush and need to know that "crossing the aisle" has more to do with public relations than good policy.

I'm not for legislating what goes on in the bedroom. Even homosexual marriage, which is legalized in Canada, is for a small percentage of the population and when the political mission is eliminated less people seem to care as long as it's private.

What conservatives should be more worried about is gay adoption and influence on children. Just read Plato's Symposium, and you'll know what I mean about fear of the older influencing the younger in relationships. They believed that young teenage boys were real sexy. There was no political correctness when Plato was around to censor that book.

The question will be more heated when we talk about gay adoption. What is a Catholic adoption service supposed to do for a gay couple? Should the government force them to provide the service to gay couples despite their beliefs? You know the government is going to be pulled in on this debate.

Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Last week you said saving provides jobs. Well which one is it? Sorry but this is a one sided short sighted economic theory...

If I don't have a job how can I save? Companies hire us not out of duty but because they hope to make money off our labor. They are not doing philanthropy. Obama is weak on this area. It follows the typical attitude that government can increase our wealth and that we have little to do with it. Very contagious line of thinking. It's usually based on envy and class warfare. If money is distributed to the middle class who still have a job then what happens if they don't save the money and just buy more despite mounds of debt?

When Fred Thompson said in the RNC that "Obama is not going to take water from this side of the bucket but from the other side of the bucket." It was actually a line with a lot of thought put into it. Basically we are interconnected. There are unintended consequences to redistributionist policies. If we can't force people to hire (which would be like communism) then all there is are incentives.

Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar

What is the "trickle down" theory? It's a theory that the richest will spend and invest and that will SPREAD out and eventually help the working class. There's only so much pie at one time, most economic theories in one way or another is about spreading it out, you have to spread in hope that you will eventually make the pie bigger. The problem is, trickle down doesn't work...

The trickle down theory is that we get jobs because in order for companies to grow and get richer they need employees. Lower taxes helps with that. If the middle class continues with this 0% savings rate they will dwindle no matter what the government does. Tax redistributionist policies simply move money already in the economy to others creating winners and losers. Many rich millionaires and billionaries are rich because the middle class bought into the consumer BS. We can make them work harder for us by not blowing our credit to support them. Not every product is worth buying. With the savings in the bank it can be lent out to companies that supply us with what we demand. If a company sells dog crap, no amount of advertising and investment will get it off the ground. Some companies need to fail. Jobs will be lost but people needs jobs that actually produce something worth while. Jobs can be replaced. When the middle class saves they can handle these unemployment shocks much better. Also employees can more confidently change their job when they have a financial cushion they can rely on. You don't have to wait for a recession to find another job. If government wants to help with unemployment it should be focussed on retraining so people instead of just giving them money. That would be worth the taxes.

After redistributionist policies are started people evenutally join special interest groups to collect as much as possible of this handout and some with the aim of getting part of their tax money back by controlling where the spending goes. This creates apathy in democracy and low voter turnout. Individuals without a special interest group feel they are competing against blocks of group voters.

Also the lot of people who make huge money usually have talents and HARD WORK to get their money and have to deal with constant competition for their jobs. There has to be an incentive for people to get up in the morning to do work like that. It's like war sometimes in these high powered jobs.

Even Sweden decided to lower their corporate tax rates because their personal tax rates were so high. There needs to be a reason for corporations to be there or else there won't be any payroll to tax.

I think the major weakness of capitalism is that if people lose self-restraint and self-discipline their wealth can spoil them and ignorance on top of that can lead to rampant consumerism that makes us soft and weak. The kinds of things people get stressed about are so minimal compared to what people in 3rd world countries have to go through. The modern wealthy man has to invent tragedy out of small things. Without self-discipline and morality (which is found in religion and philosophy) societies decay. I prefer philosophy to religion but most people are attracted to religion because it offers rewards in the afterlife and if they lose belief or have none in the first place they tend to go to egoism. Adam Smith wrote an economics book but also an ethics book as well.

You can see it's a fragile balance that individuals need to be aware of. If morality is missing, or good economics, a crisis ensues until we learn our lessons. If we do.

[corianderstem]

Republicans have unleashed a blistering mailing against Barack Obama that invokes the 9/11 attacks with a disturbing image of a jumbo jet and a warning that the Democrat nominee isn't "who you think he is."

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

Not all Republicans are conservative, and spending on war is something that would be nice to avoid but enemies prevent that from happening.

History will prove that Iraq was not a war of necessity.

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

From your response it shows that George Bush's over spending and "compassionate" conservatism doesn't work and gives ammunition for the democrats. "If Republicans do it why can't we?"

I'm glad you put compassionate in quotes, for it was nothing of the sort...

But once again you miss my point, it's not a "if Republicans do it why can't we", it's about quit using the slogans of yesteryear, they no longer exist. The Republicans are not small government.

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

What conservatives should be more worried about is gay adoption and influence on children. Just read Plato's Symposium, and you'll know what I mean about fear of the older influencing the younger in relationships. They believed that young teenage boys were real sexy. There was no political correctness when Plato was around to censor that book.

Wow, just wow.

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

If I don't have a job how can I save? Companies hire us not out of duty but because they hope to make money off our labor. They are not doing philanthropy. Obama is weak on this area. It follows the typical attitude that government can increase our wealth and that we have little to do with it. Very contagious line of thinking. It's usually based on envy and class warfare. If money is distributed to the middle class who still have a job then what happens if they don't save the money and just buy more despite mounds of debt?

Man you are all over the place with this paragraph. Yes you need a job to save, but that's not what you said, I pointed out to you that you have contradicted yourself from last week.

Who has the typical attitude that government can increase our wealth? I've never met anyone who has that attitude.

Then you get into your psychoanalytical envy bullshit again...

And then you go on to talk about how even if the middle class does get money they will just live out of their means. What does this have to do with anything? Do you want the government to come in and control the middle class spending? You aren't making sense.

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

If we can't force people to hire (which would be like communism) then all there is are incentives.

Once again, where does this come from? Who is talking about forced hiring? I know one canidate that has incentitives to keep tech jobs in the US, and it's not McCain.

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

The trickle down theory is that we get jobs because in order for companies to grow and get richer they need employees. Lower taxes helps with that.

But it doesn't happen in practice.

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

If the middle class continues with this 0% savings rate they will dwindle no matter what the government does. Tax redistributionist policies simply move money already in the economy to others creating winners and losers. Many rich millionaires and billionaries are rich because the middle class bought into the consumer BS. We can make them work harder for us by not blowing our credit to support them. Not every product is worth buying. With the savings in the bank it can be lent out to companies that supply us with what we demand. If a company sells dog crap, no amount of advertising and investment will get it off the ground. Some companies need to fail. Jobs will be lost but people needs jobs that actually produce something worth while. Jobs can be replaced. When the middle class saves they can handle these unemployment shocks much better. Also employees can more confidently change their job when they have a financial cushion they can rely on. You don't have to wait for a recession to find another job. If government wants to help with unemployment it should be focussed on retraining so people instead of just giving them money. That would be worth the taxes.

Once again, a lot of words, but nothing really said. Yes, people need to save, but like you said they need a decent job in order to save. Do you know how many people are living paycheck to paycheck?

But get off your savings thing, for you can't ever force people to save, focus on what we can do.

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

After redistributionist policies are started people evenutally join special interest groups to collect as much as possible of this handout and some with the aim of getting part of their tax money back by controlling where the spending goes. This creates apathy in democracy and low voter turnout. Individuals without a special interest group feel they are competing against blocks of group voters.

Can you give an example of where this is happening in America or Canada?

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

Also the lot of people who make huge money usually have talents and HARD WORK to get their money and have to deal with constant competition for their jobs. There has to be an incentive for people to get up in the morning to do work like that. It's like war sometimes in these high powered jobs.

Just like in all walks of life yes this is true for some. But there are also very talented folks in the middle class that didn't have the right connection. There are some born with a silver spoon, and some born without a spoon. So don't give me this crap about incentive. You honestly think some folks are going to purposely work less because they might make the next tax bracket even though they'll be making more at the end of the day? Give me a break, your grasp on economics makes my brain hurt sometimes.

[MrsSpringsteen]

This is all kinds of awesome

YouTube - Did John McCain just say the "C" word on live TV?

[corianderstem]

Well, at least it wasn't directed at his wife this time.

[Tiger Edge]

Originally Posted by corianderstem

Well, at least it wasn't directed at his wife this time.

I disagree. He was clearly giving a speech out of his second mouth on the back of his head. You know, the mouth McCain used to talk with before this new mouth was planted firmly on his face.

[corianderstem]

[JOFO]

LOLOLOL.

Man, that statement also had the word "Bush" in it as well.


I like how his wife heard it and moved uncomfortably.

[Varitek]

Great article on just how crazy/full of shit/dangerously unstable McCain might be.

Make-Believe Maverick : Rolling Stone

[Varitek]

And I haven't read it yet, because it's long, but the snippets I've heard about it are pretty awesome if you are for Obama, but also kind of scary re: McCain, and at the very least quite juicey.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/ma...=1&oref=slogin

[Varitek]

Originally Posted by namkcuR

From last night:

MSNBC pwns Palin(I think Maddow had a segment too but I can't find it)

thanks for the olberman vid, that was great

[kellyahern]

Originally Posted by namkcuR

From last night:

MSNBC pwns Palin(I think Maddow had a segment too but I can't find it)

Chris Matthews was at it again just now. This issue really ticks him off

If nothing else, this election has drilled into my head what the role of the Vice President is according to the Constitution.

[Varitek]

yeah, you, me, and everyone in america except sarah palin, candidate for vp.

[toscano]

See, here's why I've always said not to be counting chickens re. the presidential race - Too many stupid people

AP presidential poll: Race tightens in final weeks - Yahoo! News

[dazzledbylight]

Originally Posted by kellyahern

Pfriend or Pfoe? | The Daily Show | Comedy Central

So, U2democrat, are you part of real or fake Virginia?

Is that like northern Florida is really Georgia, but we just don't like to publicize it?

See, I'm from west central Florida, which is the real Florida. As opposed to south Florida, which is the fake Florida (or "Cuba") and northern Florida, which is actually Georgia, as I said before. Central Florida is Disney World, so it's a different country all together. And east central Florida is known as the space coast, so you know . . . . aliens. The Florida Keys . . . well, we just pretend they don't exist and only pay attention to them when it's hurricane season or we want to vacation there.

I think everyone in FYM should examine if they are in the real or fake part of their state (or province, for our Canadian posters ).

very good, kelly!