2008 U.S. Presidential Campaign Discussion Thread-Part 10.

[phillyfan26]

Why is it that scorning intellectuals in their speeches is not equivalent to not welcoming them, STING?

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by phillyfan26

McCain finished in the top 98% of his college class. I suppose that makes him intellectual.

1. Have you ever tried to get accepted to one of the 4 military academies?

2. Look at what John McCain did for 23 years as a Naval Officer. Its difficult if not impossible to reach the top ranks of the military without being smart and intellectual.

3. Look at the decisions he has made has a congressman and Senator over the past 27 years! He understood why it was vital to this nation's security to push Saddam's military out of Kuwait in 1991 unlike Joe Biden and probably Barack Obama. He has actually opposed his own party on a variety of issues. When has Barack Obama EVER taken on his own party?

[phillyfan26]

1. No.

2. Or have ancestry in the military to help you make your way up.

3. Opinion.

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by phillyfan26

Why is it that scorning intellectuals in their speeches is not equivalent to not welcoming them, STING?

Because its about certain intellectuals who support policies that are wrong for this country, not intellectuals as a whole, or McCain would be implicating himself.

[financeguy]

Originally Posted by Strongbow

Because its about certain intellectuals who support policies that are wrong for this country...

Which ones? Can you name them?

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by phillyfan26

2. Or have ancestry in the military to help you make your way up.

Sorry, but that aspect of civilian society is not found in the military.

3. Opinion.

Its a fact that John McCain supported the removal of Saddam's military from Kuwait in 1991 and Joe Biden did not. Its also a fact that John McCain has opposed his own party on multiple issues and Barack Obama has not.

Successful policies and the ability to step away from ones own party and oppose it when you feel it is wrong are excellent examples that are often found in intellectual individuals.

[financeguy]

Your fetishisation of the military grows tiresome.

Ultimately, who pays for your precious military?

It's us in the civilian world, with our taxes.

[Diemen]

If I recall correctly, the main line against Obama for a while was that he was an elitist, not that he was a liberal elitist. To try and deny that the Republicans have been trying to bring scorn upon unapologetic intellectualism is ignoring reality.

If you take a good look at McCain's military record you would realize that had he not had the McCain lineage before him, he would most likely have not made it past the military academy. And definitely would not have still had his wings after crashing two planes (prior to his crash in Vietnam).

[Diemen]

Originally Posted by Strongbow

Sorry, but that aspect of civilian society is not found in the military.

And we're just supposed to take your word for it, are we?

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by financeguy

Your fetishisation of the military grows tiresome.

Ultimately, who pays for your precious military?

It's us in the civilian world, with our taxes.

Your attempts to characterize members of the forum grows tiresome.

Its certainly not in keeping with the rules of the forum.

It is ultimately a waste of time for those reading this thread, especially your own.

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by Diemen

If I recall correctly, the main line against Obama for a while was that he was an elitist, not that he was a liberal elitist. To try and deny that the Republicans have been trying to bring scorn upon unapologetic intellectualism is ignoring reality.

The reality is that the Republican party is no less intellectual than the Democratic Party.

you take a good look at McCain's military record you would realize that had he not had the McCain lineage before him, he would most likely have not made it past the military academy. And definitely would not have still had his wings after crashing two planes (prior to his crash in Vietnam).

Even if that were so, you don't actually have to graduate from the Naval Academy in order to be a pilot in the Navy.

Accidents don't in of themselves cause you to lose your wings, poor decisions and judgements do. Unknown to many civilians, accidents, some of them fatal, happen every year in the military.

[Diemen]

McCain calls comments by Georgia Democrat 'shocking' - CNN.com

Sen. John McCain called a statement by a Georgia congressman Saturday, which compared the feeling at recent Republican rallies to those of segregationist George Wallace, "a brazen and baseless attack."

Rep. John Lewis, D-Georgia, who has been praised by McCain in the past, issued his statement after several days of headline-grabbing anger aimed at Democratic nominee Barack Obama from some attendees at campaign rallies of McCain and running mate Gov. Sarah Palin.

"What I am seeing reminds me too much of another destructive period in American history. Sen. McCain and Gov. Palin are sowing the seeds of hatred and division, and there is no need for this hostility in our political discourse," Lewis said in a statement.

"George Wallace never threw a bomb. He never fired a gun, but he created the climate and the conditions that encouraged vicious attacks against innocent Americans who were simply trying to exercise their constitutional rights. Because of this atmosphere of hate, four little girls were killed on Sunday morning when a church was bombed in Birmingham, Alabama," wrote the Democrat.

...

But the Arizona senator blasted Lewis' remarks, and called on Obama to repudiate them.

"Congressman John Lewis' comments represent a character attack against Gov. Sarah Palin and me that is shocking and beyond the pale," he said in a Saturday afternoon statement released by his campaign.

"The notion that legitimate criticism of Sen. Obama's record and positions could be compared to Gov. George Wallace, his segregationist policies and the violence he provoked is unacceptable and has no place in this campaign. I am saddened that John Lewis, a man I've always admired, would make such a brazen and baseless attack on my character and the character of the thousands of hardworking Americans who come to our events to cheer for the kind of reform that will put America on the right track.

"I call on Sen. Obama to immediately and personally repudiate these outrageous and divisive comments that are so clearly designed to shut down debate 24 days before the election. Our country must return to the important debate about the path forward for America."

He really has no shame anymore. Anybody with an ounce of reading comprehension can look at Lewis' comments and realize that he was not talking about criticisms of Obama's record, but of the tone of the rallies, and the hateful comments and anger that went completely unchecked from the stage. To try and spin this around as if it's Lewis' comments that are "beyond the pale" is spineless, and then to have the gall to call on Obama to repudiate the comments and return to the important issues of the day is really quite laughable.

I hope Obama has the guts to stand up to this and call it for what it is.

[phillyfan26]

Lewis could not have hit the nail on the head more. McCain and Palin are allowing hate to spread just to not alienate that relatively large, ignorant portion of the Republican base.

That part of the base has no equal in the Democratic Party. And that's the point. There's a sector of Republicans that pride themselves on not being "elitist" (a buzz word for well spoken and intellectual), and to deny that is to ignore a large part of modern American politics.

[JOFO]

Bleh.
I KNEW it was going to get ugly and come down to race.....I'm surprised it took so long.

Fucking racists.

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by phillyfan26

That part of the base has no equal in the Democratic Party. And that's the point. There's a sector of Republicans that pride themselves on not being "elitist" (a buzz word for well spoken and intellectual), and to deny that is to ignore a large part of modern American politics.

You realize that West Virginia is historically a democratic state. The Democrats have not won the White House since 1916 without winning West Virginia. We know how well Barack Obama did in the Democratic Primary there. So please, stop this nonsense in saying that its only parts of the Republican party that act and feel this way. If that was the case, Barack Obama would not have been complaining about western Pennsylvanians clinging to Guns and Religion in the Democratic Primary in the spring.

[financeguy]

Originally Posted by phillyfan26

Lewis could not have hit the nail on the head more. McCain and Palin are allowing hate to spread just to not alienate that relatively large, ignorant portion of the Republican base.

That part of the base has no equal in the Democratic Party. And that's the point. There's a sector of Republicans that pride themselves on not being "elitist" (a buzz word for well spoken and intellectual), and to deny that is to ignore a large part of modern American politics.

No, to be fair, McCain condemned it. Soundings are coming from his camp that he is against this type of behaviour. Of course, it could be just a tactic but I don't believe that it is just that, myself.

There is, believe it or not, a middle ground between the Strongbow point of view that McCain is perfect in every way, and the alternative point of view, sometimes vented on FYM, that McCain is a conniving bollix that will do anything to get elected.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by Strongbow

Its as uninformed and anti-intellectual a statement as any other statement in here.

Go tell it to David Brooks, of your conservative Republican persuasion.

I can't believe you are standing there with a straight face and telling us that intellectuals and "elites" have not been scorned by the Republicans. Did you watch the GOP convention this year? Did you not hear Romney's speech? Giuliani's speech? Please. Get a dose of reality check.

[yolland]

Yes, there are racists of every political persuasion, including among independents. And they aren't the majority in either major party.

I don't, however, recall reading about shouts of "Kill him!" "Off with his head!" "Traitor!" and "Terrorist!" at Hillary Clinton rallies, and I doubt that's mere coincidence.

[Diemen]

Originally Posted by financeguy

No, to be fair, McCain condemned it. Soundings are coming from his camp that he is against this type of behaviour. Of course, it could be just a tactic but I don't believe that it is just that, myself.

There was a moment in those clips, after the shout of "kill him!" came over, that McCain looked up and paused, and a look of concern passed over his face. Then he continued on.

To me that's troubling. Especially with the delay between those kinds of remarks and finally a plea for a respectful campaign. It's the kind of delay that says (to me) "ok, we're getting pummelled in the press and the polls over this, let's not continue down this path" rather than "this is obviously wrong and I need to speak up."

[financeguy]

Originally Posted by Diemen

There was a moment in those clips, after the shout of "kill him!" came over, that McCain looked up and paused, and a look of concern passed over his face. Then he continued on.

To me that's troubling. Especially with the delay between those kinds of remarks and finally a plea for a respectful campaign. It's the kind of delay that says (to me) "ok, we're getting pummelled in the press and the polls over this, let's not continue down this path" rather than "this is obviously wrong and I need to speak up."

I tend to take a different view, but possibly I have a more favourable impression of McCain than you. I never really classed him as a true-believin' neo-con. Of course, I could be wrong.