#2 - Knowledge

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melon

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Is it better to be knowledgable about the world--thus embittered and angered about all the corruption about it, frustrated by your inability to change it--or to be blissfully ignorant of the world around you--thus under the illusion that life is perfect and always happy?

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
 
i.e. Blue pill or Red pill?

I've given considerable thought to your question, and have arrived at the conclusion that I'm happy as hell that I don't have to make that choice.
 
difficult question to answer..... its very easy to ignore it all and just live in bliss... sorta like going to a U2 concert, nothing offensive intended there. i love going to U2 concerts, its way to escape it all... and live in the moment...

somehow im leaning toward that side of living in the moment rather than striving my whole life to reach for something that might be impossible, but i cannot say enough words or compliments to express my admiration for those who will give up their life here on earth in hte persuit of trying to achieve such impossible goals...

i.e. Mother Teresa...

"Put it a little lovin in it, before it... brings you down, brings you down." (c) the band Ike Reilly
 
Originally posted by Diamond The U2 Patriot:
How about -
acquire knowledge and then make wise decisions
and
create your own happiness?


That's the best thing I've evr heard you say.
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Thanks.
 
Time for a signature change. Like it?

Melon

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"Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work." - Hanif Kureishi, Intimacy
 
Okay, I'm totally ducking the question here, but why must knowledge of the follies and sins of man condemn one to a life of frustration and bitterness?

After all, a wise man once said "I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."
 
I like to consider myself knowledgeable (keep all giggles on the inside please
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), so I'm past the choice to be ignorant. Lately I've been thinking about how great a life I have. If I could I'd go into the Peace Corps along with sula, but I want to go to college first. So I've been getting really involved with Jubilee and Drop the Debt. It makes me feel like I'm doing something and it's helping me get my foot in the doorway of helping others. So my answer is get educated, never stop learning, then help the world to be a better place. Change the world within you then outside of you.

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"Just tell 'em what they wanna hear & nobody will complain."
 
Originally posted by melon:
Is it better to be knowledgable about the world--thus embittered and angered about all the corruption about it, frustrated by your inability to change it--or to be blissfully ignorant of the world around you--thus under the illusion that life is perfect and always happy?

Melon


hmm. Well perhaps the other related question would be are the two mutually exclusive?
 
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
hmm. Well perhaps the other related question would be are the two mutually exclusive?

Probably not, at least if you have access to large amounts of morphine, Prozac, Valium, etc.
 
I would choose saccharine. Hey, it's been known to kill laboratory rats, but at least it's less fattening.
 
Originally posted by Diamond The U2 Patriot:
How about -
acquire knowledge and then make wise decisions
and
create your own happiness?

D
B
9

I *gasp* like this.
smile.gif
 
Is it better to be knowledgeable about the world--thus embittered and angered about all the corruption about it, frustrated by your inability to change it--or to be blissfully ignorant of the world around you--thus under the illusion that life is perfect and always happy?

I've thought about this since I was a child and still cannot decide.

A source of my unhappiness is that I can't stop thinking, or at least rarely do. I've had a few friends who I've discussed this with and we've all noticed that in some sense ignorant people tend to be "happier".

The thing is, I think about the times when I'm not thinking. Usually it's when I'm doing something on auto pilot and there is nothing else to fill my brain. These times when I'm not thinking really scare the hell out of me. First cause it's a different sense of being than I normally have, second because it makes me wonder about the people who seem to always be on automatic pilot.

To sort of bring back to what your talking about. My inability to change a world of corruption does frustrate me. It reminds me of a skit that comedian Bill Hicks used to do concerning the two political parties, where he had one hand talking to the other hand, but both run by the same operator. With a lot of Hicks comedy he was trying to change people's minds, and in the course of his routines you could sometimes hear him growing more and more frustrated. Some times to the point where it was disheartening as a listener to hear someone trying to make an audience listen and the audience is a brick wall.

But as someone who sees corruption, some times I think that?s all you can do, talk to brick walls. It may be frustrating and disheartening, but at least it?s a venting mechanism.

As for happiness, I think people destroy far too much in the pursuit of their own personal happiness. I think happiness is a fleeting thing and wouldn?t be special if it wasn?t. I flip back and forth between what?s better, being ?aware? or being ?happy?, but in the end it doesn?t matter because I?m the way I am. I?ll have to take what comfort I can from that.

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It?s off topic, but you asked what we thought of the new signature. I don?t have the context of the quote, so I may be misinterpreting it.

My question is, what political creedo doesn?t involve endless work for the price of luxury? That is the price of luxury to a certain extent, though I know(personally and otherwise) people who don?t work anymore and live in what I would call luxury. I also know people on the opposite end who are greedy and don?t work and live in shite. I personally just want to live well and at a certain point stop working, like my grandparents did and my grandparents before them.

Also, what political programme is based on ?bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness.?? Cause I can?t remember that party on the ticket when I voted, and believe me, I was in such a bad mood when I looked at my choices, that I probably would have voted right down the BDAIH party lines just out of spite.

Finally, ?elevation of greed? is a human vice and It happens everywhere despite social standing, politics, education, locality, etc. etc. etc. And again I don?t remember seeing the party that espoused this on my ticket. I remember seeing some candidates who espoused this, but they belonged to a few different parties.

[This message has been edited by hermes (edited 04-02-2002).]
 
Originally posted by hermes:
I've thought about this since I was a child and still cannot decide.

A source of my unhappiness is that I can't stop thinking, or at least rarely do. I've had a few friends who I've discussed this with and we've all noticed that in some sense ignorant people tend to be "happier".

The thing is, I think about the times when I'm not thinking. Usually it's when I'm doing something on auto pilot and there is nothing else to fill my brain. These times when I'm not thinking really scare the hell out of me. First cause it's a different sense of being than I normally have, second because it makes me wonder about the people who seem to always be on automatic pilot.

To sort of bring back to what your talking about. My inability to change a world of corruption does frustrate me. It reminds me of a skit that comedian Bill Hicks used to do concerning the two political parties, where he had one hand talking to the other hand, but both run by the same operator. With a lot of Hicks comedy he was trying to change people's minds, and in the course of his routines you could sometimes hear him growing more and more frustrated. Some times to the point where it was disheartening as a listener to hear someone trying to make an audience listen and the audience is a brick wall.

But as someone who sees corruption, some times I think that?s all you can do, talk to brick walls. It may be frustrating and disheartening, but at least it?s a venting mechanism.

As for happiness, I think people destroy far too much in the pursuit of their own personal happiness. I think happiness is a fleeting thing and wouldn?t be special if it wasn?t. I flip back and forth between what?s better, being ?aware? or being ?happy?, but in the end it doesn?t matter because I?m the way I am. I?ll have to take what comfort I can from that.


I agree with everything you said here. Great post.
 
From what I've seen the less knowledged always find something to be unhappy about anyway, it's just less relevant things like my neighbour has a nicer car, it's a shame I only have two days off per week and to work eight hours a days is too much and on and on. To be knowledged and aware of what's around you open your eyes to see how much we have to be happy about.

So I'd rather be knowledged and be happy about my life compared to how bad it can be and maybe in that awareness help one person to a better life, it's not about saving all people out there. I think the happiness that would give, is so much greater then any of those who is ignorant can ever be.

It is frustrating, yes, but I rather be frustrated over these things then that my neighbour has a nicer car.
wink.gif


Just my thoughts...
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"U2 on it?s own is a very interesting group and all. But U2 with it?s audience is a culture" - Bono

http://community.webshots.com/user/misszooropa
Pictures from Copenhagen (shirtless ones), London and Dublin, Slane.
 
thanks Mug222
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Funny, a quote was just posted at the Marc Maron message board that sort of pertains to this subject:

"There are those whose own vulgar normality is so apparent and stultifying that they strive to escape it. They affect flamboyant behavior and claim originality according to the fashionable eccentricities of their time. They claim brains or talent or indifference to mores in desperate attempts to deny their own mediocrity. These are frequently artists and performers, adventurers and wildlife devotees.

Then there are those who feel their own strangeness and are terrified by it. They struggle toward normalcy. They suffer to exactly that degree that they are unable to appear normal to others, or to convince themselves that their aberration does not exist. Those are true freaks, who appear, almost always, conventional and dull." --Katherine Dunn (from the novel Geek Love)

Actually, I'm not sure how much it really pertains to this discussion, but whatever...
 
From hermes post:

"Then there are those who feel their own strangeness and are terrified by it. They struggle toward normalcy. They suffer to exactly that degree that they are unable to appear normal to others, or to convince themselves that their aberration does not exist. Those are true freaks, who appear, almost always, conventional and dull." --Katherine Dunn (from the novel Geek Love)"
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its very scary to read a quote like that and realise the first you think is...shit! thats me
 
In regards to part #2 of hermes' post on my signature (BTW, I love what you wrote on part #1), I should give you the entire context of that quote, which is, directly, a critique on Thatcher-era politics and leftism:

"Like the hippies we disdained materialism. Yet we were less frivolous that the original 'heads.' If we dropped out to become carpenters and gardeners it was because we wanted to share the experience of the working class. We were an earnest and moral generation, with severe politics. We were the last generation to defend communism. I knew people who holidayed in Albania; apparently the beaches are exquisite. An acquaintance supported the Soviet Union on the day they invaded Afghanistan.

We were dismissive and contemptuous of Thatcherism, but so captivated by our own ideological obsessions that we couldn't see its appeal. Which isn't to say that we didn't fight it. There was the miners' strike, and the battles at Wapping. We were left enervated and confused. Soon we didn't know what we believed. Some remained on the left; others retreated into sexual politics; some became Thatcherites. We were the kind of people who held the Labour Party back.

Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work."

Of course, perhaps why I clung to this quote is because I'm beginning my post-idealistic jump into the world; one where my once extreme left beliefs now would actually exclude me as a "yuppie."

As young as I am (21 going on 22), I've always been painfully observant, with the reality now that we work the most out of everyone in industrialized nations, and, yet, we don't ever seem to have *enough.* Go back 10 years, and we used to laugh at Japan for working themselves to the point of suicide. Ultimately, at the present, are we any different? And are we really any wealthier?

Go back 35 years, and we used to have a very strong industrial economy for its time, where we needed, really, no more than a high school diploma and the man working a 40-hour work week to live very highly. Now, we demand more and more education for less and less buying power with worse benefits and more forced overtime than ever, with a dual-income household just to keep afloat in many instances.

And, I ask myself, is it really all worth it? It is pretty damn obvious that we have no time for ourselves and our families, as we have a high divorce rate and children raised on babysitters and day care. And we wonder why we have such a breakdown of families?

Once again, I am tortured by my knowledge of what was and what is.

So, in essence, that quote made a lot of sense to me. Maybe it didn't to others, so I apologize.

Melon

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"Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work." - Hanif Kureishi, Intimacy
 
didn't offend me or anything, no apology needed for me.

I've just been a bit sensitive lately about blind attacks against political parties and beliefs. Let's just say in my every day life the past couple days I?ve encountered those have been highly critical of a few different viewpoints, ones I don't even share, and they had no idea what those viewpoints actually mean. It didn't end well. Talking to walls, I suppose.

But please, don?t apologize for anything you believe in, even when I disagree with you, you've seemed thought out and educated in your opinions. Much healthier discusions and much mroe fun than I've had to deal with lately.

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As for society, I agree all those problems exist. I don?t think we?re any better or worse off than we were 35 years ago, when you look at society as a whole.

I do think a troubling trend is that people have their priorities backwards in most instances. We have a sickening cycle of consumerism. We have political parties which are buying into this cycle because, well that's where the votes are. We have business creating and being created by this cycle.

Which is where I get frustrated. How do you change the hearts of people?
 
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