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Old 06-22-2007, 02:03 PM   #21
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Look I realize I put myself in a position of possibly defending a perv...

I don't think she can know, because she is 16. But if we're going to base it on maturity, I've known plenty of people who were 18, 20, whatever who had no clue re: relationships, and would have no business getting married.

All I'm saying is it's wrong for any of us to assume the worst of the guy (or the girl for that matter). Yeah he's marrying a 16 year old girl, I never would (what the hell would we talk about?)...but that doesn't automatically make him a hairy-palmed deviant either. Yeah he might indeed be one, but he might not.
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Old 06-22-2007, 02:17 PM   #22
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In addition to the bad parenting...

You have to be one immature and idiotic 40 year old to believe this marriage would work when she was 14 when the relationship started. Maybe he is that naive or immature, but likely (given that a relationship between a 38 year old and 14 year old is already abusive) he is taking advantage of the potential for unlimitted access to her and control of her if they are married. Sick.
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Old 06-22-2007, 02:27 PM   #23
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I'm carrying this over from my "School bans all forms of touching—including high-fives" thread as I think it's important to address it in the context of this story:

Quote:
Originally posted by intedomine
What a load of crap, to be touched by a human being can be one of the most conforting things for an individual.

It's like the uproar over teachers sleeping with students. If the student is above the legal age, there's nothing wrong with it. Let it happen, it's putting smiles on faces.
I'm curious to know what you think about the story in this thread intedomine.

While I have issues with the huge age discrepancy in this case, I find it repugnant for anyone in a position of authority to take advantage of kids this way—whether they are above the legal age of consent or not.
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Old 06-22-2007, 02:41 PM   #24
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Wow...

I understand that kids mature differently. However, 16 years old is really early to be able to judge what true love really is.

I had a boss when I taught gymnastics who was 30 years old. He started coaching this girl when he was 20 and when she was 8 and continues to this day...

When she turned 16, they started hanging out a lot at his house, going to church together and whatnot. Once 18 came around, sure enough...they made it official saying they were dating. He even told me he probably would marry her and again...a couple months later they are engaged.

What is so sad about my boss is he has molded her into what he wanted her to be. You can tell so obviously that she is just a product of what he wanted as a person and she has no personallity of her own. Just what he wanted her to be.

I see similar things in this story. Age isn't a big deal to me...but young KIDS like Windy miss out on some serious development in my eyes.
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Old 06-22-2007, 02:45 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by CTU2fan


All I'm saying is it's wrong for any of us to assume the worst of the guy (or the girl for that matter). Yeah he's marrying a 16 year old girl, I never would (what the hell would we talk about?)...but that doesn't automatically make him a hairy-palmed deviant either. Yeah he might indeed be one, but he might not.

How can you not assume the worst? She was 14 when it started. It doesn't matter what either one of them felt or whether it was real love or not.

It never should have progressed to the point of falling in love. The adult authority figure never should have let this get beyond a student-teacher relationship. Students have crushes on teachers and coaches all the time and the adult has to have enough self restraint to make sure it doesn't turn into something more.

I sent my kids to school for an education, not to get busy with their teachers.
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Old 06-22-2007, 02:47 PM   #26
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That's very true. I'm not even sure if it's intentional (on the part of the older person). If you legitimately date somebody who's younger/inexperienced they're bound to end up that way. I saw a lot of it in high school...girls would just become extensions of the guys they dated, because they hadn't been exposed enough to be their own person. I think it's going to happen to anybody who gets serious/marries young...they just miss out on things.
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Old 06-22-2007, 03:01 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's American Wife

She was 14 when it started.


so was Loretta Lynn.

and Jerry Lee Lewis's cousin.



and i agree with you.

marriage is hardly a static, unchanging institution.
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Old 06-22-2007, 03:04 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's American Wife



How can you not assume the worst? She was 14 when it started. It doesn't matter what either one of them felt or whether it was real love or not.

It never should have progressed to the point of falling in love. The adult authority figure never should have let this get beyond a student-teacher relationship. Students have crushes on teachers and coaches all the time and the adult has to have enough self restraint to make sure it doesn't turn into something more.

I sent my kids to school for an education, not to get busy with their teachers.
But what if it did?

I understand the guy is probably a dirtbag, but it's also possible that he's not.
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Old 06-22-2007, 03:51 PM   #29
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Hmm, reminds me of being back in Africa. Plenty of 14, 15, 16 year olds getting married to guys of all ages, even older than 40. Then again, culturally they are considered "women" at that age and ready to step into the role of wife and mother. I wonder how much age is a number and not necessarily an indication of maturity. That said, within the context of US culture and given the process we have in place (eg. grade school, high school, college as steps toward adulthood) not to mention my own experience of the total immaturity of many so-called "adults", this situation does strike me as a bit icky.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:04 PM   #30
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Some reason they coudn't wait?

To answer my own question, it was probably because they knew they couldn't pursue their relationship without the protection of marriage because if they weren't married you'd be looking at statutory rape etc.

(It's not clear that they had a sexual relationship yet from the article. In either case being able to pursue such a relationship was probably a big motivator for gettting married).

I don't have an issue with the age difference (my inlaws are 22 years apart). The red flag for me is the age of the girl. If this coach had even a shred of responsiblity and really "loved" this girl, he would have inisted on waiting until she was at least 18 (if not a little older) before allowing the relationship to continue.

He dropped the ball.

Her parents dropped the ball.

And I think it's unfair to expect a 16 year old girl to carry the ball all by herself. So, of course she dropped it too.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:18 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's American Wife



How can you not assume the worst? She was 14 when it started. It doesn't matter what either one of them felt or whether it was real love or not.

It never should have progressed to the point of falling in love. The adult authority figure never should have let this get beyond a student-teacher relationship. Students have crushes on teachers and coaches all the time and the adult has to have enough self restraint to make sure it doesn't turn into something more.

I sent my kids to school for an education, not to get busy with their teachers.
I have to agree with that. If they have real love well they can wait until she is older and more mature and then get married. Let's see how the relationship progresses and matures and if it can survive that. I think back to when I was 16 and how I would think some guy was just the be all and end all when in reality I had no clue-and they were boys not 40 year old men who were much wiser about the world than 16 year old boys, ostensibly. Age difference doesn't matter when both people are sufficiently emotionally equipped for the relationship and it is on equal footing so to speak- neither is in a teacher/coach/similar position of authority. There may be issues that this girl has that she somehow thinks he is the solution for. If so those should be dealt with.

Whether the guy is a dirtbag or not is irrelevant, he had no business getting involved with her in his position and with the age difference within that position.

Put yourself personally in that position-if it was your 16, 14 year old daughter or son. It's easy to speak about in the abstract. We seem to believe for many reasons that 16 and 17 year olds are so mature and ready for all of this. I just have to wonder about a 40 year old guy being involved with and attracted to a girl that young and what is going on with him. Can't help that, that is a red flag for me.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:21 PM   #32
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I just have to give some points on this issue. Everyone is making a big deal about her only being 14-16, she's too young, she's not even fully developed, blah blah blah.

I had a friend in elementary, yes- ELEMENTARY, who had a baby during her sixth grade year. Her single mother, the boy's parents, and school officials suggested she have an abortion, reason being, "She's just a child, she wouldn't know how to raise a child." The single mother had problems raising her own daughter and how could she afford to raise another one on her own?
Despite all of this, she refused, continued to go to school by homeschooling, went back to Jr high after the baby was born, and continued until she graduated. She went to college after that and is now twenty nine years old and is a nurse. Her son is now 17 years old and is graduating from a school in Seattle and is on the honor roll and is going to go to U-of Washington to be a doctor. Venus credits her son as a lifesaver, seeing as when she was 11, she was getting into drinking and drugging and when she had him, he inspired her to turn her life around.

Same school, different friend, ahem, my best friend in elementary. We went to highschool together and we sort of grew apart. At fourteen she told me that she was having an affair with her dad's best friend, 18 years her senior. I was shocked. She told me that they were going to run away together and get married. I quickly told her parents about it and they stopped it. NO more than six months later she met a 22 year old army man and a few months later, she dropped out of highschool and they ran off and got married and had to leave state to avoid her parents, I guess she faked being 17...I don't know. All I know now is that she is also 29, a stay at home mom, her husband is back and forth to Iraq, but they've been together, happily, all these years and have four beautiful children.

I, on the other hand, was a slow child. While other girls my age were developing mentally, liking boys and parties, stuff like that, I preferred barbie dolls until I was 14. I didn't start highschool parties until I was 17, almost 18. It was like I was mentally always three or four years behind.

Like the person said, "Children mature differently and a lot faster than others."

My grandmother was to marry, by a matchmaker, when she was only fifteen years old to a man that she never met and he was eight or nine years older than her. They were together until death.

In some cultures, like Indian chiefs as old as 80 were taking on 12 year old wives (circa 1860).

When I was 14 I developed a major and serious crush on Bono, who was 32...and IF I could I would have ran off and married him...regardless of if he was my music teacher or not. Circumstantial evidence weighs much more than society standards.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:36 PM   #33
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So possibly we could say because it works out for some kids we should allow it. Teachers should be allowed to be involved with students- sexually, romantically. We should have no standard. Forty year olds should date 13 and 14 year olds-hey why not even younger? What about when it doesn't work? It's not just the age, it's the position he had.

The guy was texting her at 2AM- odds are they weren't discussing track. Then he denied anything was going on when that was discovered.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:44 PM   #34
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So since she was 16 they couldn't call the cops on him? When did they find out that he was seeing her? When she was 14 or 15?

They should have called the cops on him then. That's what I would have done, had my daughter been seeing her teacher.

The fact that the parents didn't do any of this is red flags to me. This man should not be taking advantage of any student, no. He really should be behind bars.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:44 PM   #35
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I can't see how anyone can think this is OK. Who here was ready to make a life altering decision at age 14? Raise your hand...

And anyone who thinks that an authority figure having a relationship with their student is going to be a true and equal relationship is lying to themselves.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:46 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by absintheminded


I had a friend in elementary, yes- ELEMENTARY, who had a baby during her sixth grade year.
And probably 99% of the children who have babies at that age end up living a MUCH different life than your friend did.

Third world cultures are different. Somebody having a baby at the age of 12 or 13 in our society is a failure of the social and parental safety net.

The teacher is in a position of trust and a position of authority. He has NO business dating a 14 year old student in that position. Period. We are adults who can control our behaviour. Maybe most teachers felt attracted to some student at some point, who knows. But nearly all of them understand the inappropriate nature of starting up a relationship. A 40 year old man who feels an attraction to a 14 year old child and then pursues her or responds to her pursuit in the middle of the night and lies about it later...certainly suggests his judgment is poor if not impaired.

40 year old teachers have NO business dating their 14 year old students. And if you heard of a 40 year old man going to Cambodia or Thailand to romance a 14 year old, we're all repulsed by his sexual attraction to a child.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:53 PM   #37
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It says in the article that they went to "the law" so I would assume that means the police. I don't understand how anyone can think this is ok either. I feel old fashioned or something, I dunno. When I was in junior high I had a male teacher who would tease me by giving me a nickname for my name, would have "window ladies" who opened and closed the windows and brought his lunch to the refrigerator down the hall. And I thought those things and some of his other behavior was strange. Looking back on it when I got older I thought it was creepy and felt inappropriate. It was the looks he gave too, and the way he teased. When I was that age a girl that age was vulnerable to any sort of positive attention from males-you are so unsure of yourself and your looks and sexual feelings starting, etc. Positive attention from males means so much to you, but the thing is you need the time and maturity to sort all of that out and know yourself first before taking all of that on. Even when you are much older it is tough sometimes.

I believe that teacher I had made the news years later for some inappropriate sexual stuff, don't think it was with a student but my memory is fuzzy.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:58 PM   #38
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When I was 31 I dated someone 21, and it wasn't the age difference that got in the way it was maturity level and life experience level that got in the way. I cannot see how any 40 year old man can be attracted to(not speaking physically) a 14 year old unless it's the control aspect that he's attracted to.

He probably has bald spots older than her...
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Old 06-22-2007, 05:03 PM   #39
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I never said this was ok, but I was reiterating what I thought about people saying that since she's "only 16" she doesn't know any better. A lot of children mature at different ages. Maybe this girl pursued him first...maybe she's not this innocent kid like we're making her out to be...

I never said it was ok for a 40 year old teacher to marry his student.
I understand exactly where you're coming from Mrs Springsteen, I had some unwarranted attention to myself from an older man that I thought was creepy and inappropriate.

But seriously though, this man should have been put in jail for his actions, pursuing a fourteen year old school girl, regardless of if she was in his school or not. But there must be some underlying issues because the parents obviously didn't do anything about their relationship when they first found out about it.
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Old 06-22-2007, 05:12 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram

40 year old teachers have NO business dating their 14 year old students.


and this is the only thing that matters.

her parents should have been locked up 2 years ago.
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