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Old 10-28-2004, 05:22 PM   #1
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100,000 civilians killed

LONDON (Reuters) - Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed in violence since the U.S.-led invasion last year, American public health experts have calculated in a report that estimates there were 100,000 "excess deaths" in 18 months.

The rise in the death rate was mainly due to violence and much of it was caused by U.S. air strikes on towns and cities.

"Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100,000 excess deaths, or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq," said Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in a report published online by The Lancet medical journal.

"The use of air power in areas with lots of civilians appears to be killing a lot of women and children," Roberts told Reuters.

The rest of the story can be read on yahoo and elsewhere. It's too early to comment too much on it but if the figure is anywhere nearly accurate then something has gone badly wrong if George W Bush is elected US President next week.

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Old 10-28-2004, 05:25 PM   #2
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You posted in War already. And that figure seems exeedingly high

Even the anti-war Iraqbodycount.net puts an upper figure of 16,000 and a minimum of 14,000 - buts what does an order of magnitude when it is for the greater good.

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Old 10-28-2004, 05:37 PM   #3
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I knew this was coming, and I know I'm going to get bashed for posting this, but now that this is up I have to.

A few weeks back, I was in the grocery store and noticed a young black man in dog tags talking about Iraq. He said he had been there and was being sent back. As soon as he said he was going back, I felt so bad, I looked at his face and wondered if he'd survive. He told me he was going to make it and be the old grandpa who tells war stories. I hope so.

But the point is what he said. He was telling people how upset he was that the reports of dead civilians was so high in the media and how it was being used against the war. He told us that the vast majority of 'civilians' killed were actually guerilla fighters, insurgents, radicals, terrorists and extremists, but because they are in plain clothes not uniforms, and because they are not in the Army, they must officially be categorized as 'civilians' while the average American visualizes some poor kid in a bed getting blown up. Due to collatoral damage I'm sure that has tragically happened, but before you get shocked by the high number there please take into consideration what that fine young soldier had seen and witnessed for himself. It bothered him that people thought he and his fellow soldiers were evil bastards out killing innocent families, and he wanted to get this message out. I hope this helps.
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Old 10-28-2004, 05:57 PM   #4
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Well, I don't doubt this man's sincerity but is he really going to be in a position to know that the 'vast majority of civilians killed were actually guerilla fighters, insurgents, radicals, terrorists and extremists'? Maybe this was the case in the area he was fighting in but I don't know if u can apply it to the whole country. Also, if this was the case it implies that there is an extraordinarily high number of insurgents, guerillas, etc actually involved in the fighting.
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Old 10-28-2004, 06:05 PM   #5
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With no clear dividing line between insurgant/militant/terrorist and civilian, I have little confidence in what this number represents.
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Old 10-28-2004, 06:14 PM   #6
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I hate the media...
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Old 10-28-2004, 06:38 PM   #7
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Ummm, if this was posted in War already, I'm going to close this and let the discussion go on there. It more properly belongs in War anyway.

bullet, I know you're new here, but just for future reference, cross-posting (posting the same thread in 2 or more forums) is generally not allowed anywhere on these forums.


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