Whose side are you on?

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Originally posted by The Wanderer:
(where is SG, I need one of those puke faces inserted into this post after that statement)

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Religious Nuts, Political Fanatics In The Stew
Happily Not Like Me And You
That's where I lost you....



Sicy's Website
 
And I approve Ivan... The United States using the NATO if they are going to war is unacceptable. Responding to a human crime with a war is the same thing, just it's an official, institutional thing. The US must learn something out of it, as well as NATO and even the United Nations.

Responding to terrorism by war is not correct. I didn't approved it when Russia came along war with Tchetchenia, after terrorists attacks in Moscow,I will certainly not approve the United States going at war with "someone".

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one" and should I say "I'm certainly not the only one"...

cheers and love

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La resignacion es un suicido permanente
 
Originally posted by Holy John:
It's not an army, it's not a guerilla in the moutain forest.... it's terrorism. And we should once and for all finally stand up together and learn something out of it.
cheers and love
Yes, we should learn something from it. And they should learn what happens when they do things like this. I'm sorry, but these terrorists need to be made an example of.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 09-12-2001).]
 
Bubba, I do understand where you are coming from, and I do share your sentiment of "outrage." Do not get me wrong: this was an act of war.

But "understanding" is not the same as "sympathizing." Criminal profilers do this every day. They try to understand their motives, real or perceived, in order to catch those responsible and to prevent it from happening again. However, it would be a logical flaw to say that the profilers "sympathize" with these murderers. It might be a popular Hollywood subject, but it's not real.

And, for the record, while I have agreed with Michael Moore in the past, I do not agree with what he has said today. I think it is unnecessarily partisan and very ill-timed.

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!
 
bubba, you are really starting to get whacked. i know you think that what you see is how it really is, but i think your reality is being severely skewed. doctorgonzo refutes many of your points well so i won't repeat them. please understand that there is a very profound difference between understanding reasoning behind these attacks using objective integrated reasoning and logic and sympathizing with these terrorists. your response here is simply not rational. in essence you are trying to create a division and problem where none exists. i find the statement that we are "unknowingly" sympathizing with the terrorists both insulting and highly arrogant on your behalf.

this is an act of war. some people will say it's not, but regardless of what people believe, the government has declared it so.

your argument is filled with so many non sequitors, and misdefinitions it just doesn't stand up. no one is saying that this act wasn't horrible; the last time i checked fellow americans weren't dancing in the streets and celebrating the attack. are you suggesting we are??? hello?

despite your dispicable attempt to label us as terrorist sympathizers, your self-defined righteousness does not hold up on us or any other people who are using their own integrative thinking to objectively put things into context and understand the reality around them.

the quotes you quoted are not representative of anyone here but the ones who made them. once again there is no "trap" that must be avoided, except yours.

your language is eerie...
"And I want to ask people to reconsider their attempts to understand the terrorists. They are evil, and they are the enemy. They are to be understood in so far as to prevent this from happening again, but no further."

replace a few words here "americans" for "terrorist" and those very words could have come from bin laden himself.

and bubba, the lack of understanding the last time i checked was called "ignorance."
 
Chechnya will easy become second afganistan , my proposition is to close all boarders , stop to communicate and do not allow anything from there , russian soldiers dying every day cause of this fucking gurillas ! Business on trading people ( including Americans ! ) is in power , AND AT THE SAME TIME UNITED STATES ARE ALMOST SCREAMING AT RUSSIA : " STOP , BEGIN NEGOTIATIONS " THEY BOMBED 5 LIVING HOUSES IN MOSCOW WITH HUNDREDS OF INNOCENTS IN THE NIGHT , TOOK HOSTAGES AND USING THEM LIKE A SHIELD IN A HOSPITAL , WITH A FINANCIAL HELP OF bEN LADEN , AND SOME UNKNOWN REALLY CIVILIZED COUNTRIES , BATTLE FOR OIL IS AWFUL
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I guess we're "whacked" now, eh Acthung Bubba? I will stand by you. But we will be called names because we ask people to condemn something atrocious. These terrorists need to be dealt with harshly and efficiently. There are absolutely no excuses for what they have done. And there are indeed those on this board that have sought to blame America for this. You're a patriot, Acthung, and there's no problem with that. I do, however, think that to compare the people on this forum to Nazis was not on target. I think most people on this forum who say the thinsg in question are deceived and misled, but not necessarily wicked like the Nazis.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 09-12-2001).]
 
Much has been said already... but I'll just add by reminding you that there are people who make their living by trying to understand the actions and reactions of others: Sociologists. Now if these Sociologists were to find out patterns in certain human behavior, and begin to get a better grip on how the human acts and reacts in any given situation, then that does not necessarily mean that they believe or follow these patterns themselves. Part of putting an end to a problem is understanding their (not necessarily your) motivation behind it, so that you can better plan your defense or target the necessary point of attack.

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"If I am close to the music, and you are close to the music, we are close to each other." -Bono
 
Originally posted by melon:

Third, I'm appalled at your sense of divisiveness, now trying to turn this forum against each other. It is attitudes like THIS that will forever plunge this world into endless war. This is exactly why Israel and Palestine have been fighting for decades, and it's almost ironic that many of the people who share your attitudes only a week ago were probably wondering why Israel and Palestine will never stop their endless "eye for an eye" revenge.


Yes, it is rather shameful.

Bubba, 80sU2isBest, U2Bama, etc: Haven't you guys learned anything from previous wars? War does not solve anything, it will only *kill more people*. I think your patriotism is great, but patriotism has been the excuse behind many wars in the past, and frankly, it does not justify the killing of millions, in my opinion. Nothing justifies war; I know this sounds too absolute, but think about it, please. None of us want to go to war. You go in, the rest of the world will get dragged in, I believe that with my whole heart.

And Bubba, no one's denying that what the terrorists did was an act of war. Dunno why you're so fixated on this.

with all due respect,
foray
 
I will ignore the insults and get right to the heart of things:

"doctorgonzo refutes many of your points well so i won't repeat them. please understand that there is a very profound difference between understanding reasoning behind these attacks using objective integrated reasoning (emphasis added) and logic and sympathizing with these terrorists."

"despite your dispicable attempt to label us as terrorist sympathizers, your self-defined righteousness does not hold up on us or any other people who are using their own integrative thinking to objectively (emphasis added) put things into context and understand the reality around them"

You twice used the phrase "objective integrated reasoning" to compare my comments to the comments made by both you and doctorgonzo.

If I must remind you, doctorgonzo "objectively" called U.S. actions "immoral" and "indefensible". Doctorgonzo "objectively" said that U.S. is allied to a nation that commits war crimes, a fact that is obvious to "anybody with a clue."

Again, the U.S. Presidents (past and present, from both parties), the U.S. Congress, and the U.S. Armed Forces would disagree strongly with such assertions.

Where now does my argument not "stand up"?

It's not just that some people here understand the terrorists, it's that they agree with them.

From what I've read, I can only conclude that many have a terrible image of the United States -- an opinion much closer to those of the terrorists than those of the U.S. itself.

How does that not justify the label of "sympathizer"?

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- Achtung Bubba
September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain


"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton
 
DO YOU KNOW WHAT DATE IS NOW !!!??
I'LL TELL YOU !!!!!!!
2 YEARS AGO AT 5AM LIVING HOUSE IN MOSCOW WAS BOMBED TO DUST
124 PEOPLE DEAD
119 FAMILIES ( 149 PEOPLE ) WERE SUFFERING FROM INJURES , SHOCK etc.....
 
Picking a side is like trying to choose between the Judean Popular People's Front,
The People's Front of Judea or Judean People's Front.



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All we are saying is give peace a chance //oo\\
 
And again, I agree with everyone that there is a need to understand why these terrorists did what they did.

But CAN YOU NOT see the difference between these two examples?

1. "X did Y to America because X thought America is evil."

2. "X did Y to America because America is evil."

Statement 1 is a statement about what the terrorists believe. That statement makes you an investigator and sociologist.

Statement 2 is about what YOU believe. It means that your image of the U.S. matches the terrorists image more than the image the U.S. has about itself. It makes you a sympathizer, or dangerously close to it.

Now, if you MEANT the first statement, I urge you to make the correction now!

Otherwise, I urge you to rethink your beliefs.

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- Achtung Bubba
September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain


"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton
 
I don't think there's anyone who has denied that the terrorist attacks were atrocious, and OF COURSE they cannot possibly be justified rationally. But. That doesn't mean the people behind it did it for absolutely no reason other than to cause destruction, in fact they probably didn't.. because as evil as they are these people sacrificed their lives for something they believed in strongly. That belief is probably related to a hatred of what the US has been doing.. and it is entirely possible that the US has done some things that would piss off these people (like supplying weapons to their enemies). That means that had the US had a different foreign policy, perhaps things would be different.

Can we all together say "duh"?

That doesn't necessarily mean the US has done anything wrong, and I don't know enough about the situation to pretend that I can state anything with authority.. it's an incredibly complex issue and I doubt that I, Wanderer, doctorgonzo, george bush, bin Laden, or anyone in the whole entire world can understand it completely.
 
Nice Monty Python reference, Eliv8, but I think trivializes the situation, and I think there are differences between the U.S. and the terrorists.

I believe one of the two sides is definitely closer to the cause of justice. And as an American, and after witnessing the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians, I have to side with the U.S.



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- Achtung Bubba
September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain


"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton
 
Originally posted by melon:
Bubba, I do understand where you are coming from, and I do share your sentiment of "outrage." Do not get me wrong: this was an act of war.

But "understanding" is not the same as "sympathizing." Criminal profilers do this every day. They try to understand their motives, real or perceived, in order to catch those responsible and to prevent it from happening again. However, it would be a logical flaw to say that the profilers "sympathize" with these murderers. It might be a popular Hollywood subject, but it's not real.

And, for the record, while I have agreed with Michael Moore in the past, I do not agree with what he has said today. I think it is unnecessarily partisan and very ill-timed.

Melon


Again, what melon said. Thanks.
 
Foray:

It would be nice to be an idealist, but I live in this world and I am a realist.

I hate ware.

But sometimes, it is the only way to respond to evil acts of aggression. Should the world have just taken Hitler, Hirohito, and Mussolini up the ass, saying, "We understand; you have a point. We'll submit to your imperialism."

NO. I am glad that the sensible leaders of the world responded as they did, and wish they had responded earlier.

It must be stopped now. Yes, terrorists should be killed. Upon their deaths, they will go to hell. Any governments that continue to shelter, aid, TRAIN, or in any other way support such terrorists shall be dealt with as well.

~U2Alabama
 
I agree that there have been some somewhat strange remarks made (in the thread previously referred) that, hopefully, are simply being taken out of context, such as:

"Many families have been devastated tonight. This just is not right. They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC, and the planes? destination of California -- these were places that voted AGAINST Bush!"

So, would the actions have been justified or right if the people had voted FOR Bush?

But I don't necessarily think this is what anybody was getting at. It looks to me like things have just been taken out of context, because I refuse to believe that anybody here applauds or in any way agrees with the terrorists' intentions.

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"If I am close to the music, and you are close to the music, we are close to each other." -Bono
 
Skeksis, in case you missed this the first time:

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
And again, I agree with everyone that there is a need to understand why these terrorists did what they did.

But CAN YOU NOT see the difference between these two examples?

1. "X did Y to America because X thought America is evil."

2. "X did Y to America because America is evil."

Statement 1 is a statement about what the terrorists believe. That statement makes you an investigator and sociologist.

Statement 2 is about what YOU believe. It means that your image of the U.S. matches the terrorists image more than the image the U.S. has about itself. It makes you a sympathizer, or dangerously close to it.

Now, if you MEANT the first statement, I urge you to make the correction now!

Otherwise, I urge you to rethink your beliefs.



------------------
- Achtung Bubba
September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain


"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton
 
This thread is accomplishing nothing, and causing a great deal of friction on the forum -- too much for the forum, and too much for the discussion.

Thus, the thread is closed.

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- Achtung Bubba

September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain


"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton
 
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