WAR

[achtung__baby]

Just heard on the radio that Bush is preparing for war.

Instead of making a single attack on Bin Laden or whatever bastard did this he has decided to attack entire Middle Eastern countries.

So thousands more innocents will die

 

[bullet the blue sky]

he never actually said that. but why let the facts get in the way of a good story?!

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Good Lord.

If we DON'T attack the countries that harbor terrorists, more terrorists will take the place of bin Laden, and more innocents will still die.

What? You think terrorists are going to leave us alone after this?

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- Achtung Bubba

September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain

"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton

 

[bullet the blue sky]

Okay. Let's attack countries that harbour terrorists.

So that includes:

Afghanistan
Iraq
Iran
Israel
Lebanon
Lybia
Syria
Ireland
Spain
Bosnia
Croatia
Albania
Yugoslavia
Italy
UK
Japan
China
oh.. and America

Anyone seeing my point?

 

[NicaMom]

The problem is not just Bin Laden but also those who are sheltering him, and sadly that includes countries.

I know first hand about wars, that's the reason I now live in the USA and Tuesday's event brought back the feeling of uncertainty I had hope not to ever feel again.
Right now I'm still very angry and sad to think of a peaceful solution to terrorism.

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Through the CIA (and its international counterparts), the FBI, and our artillary of highly accurate artillery, we can focus with pinpoint accuracy on those terrorists in the U.S., the U.K., and our other allies that actively fight terrorism.

For those countries that go out of the way to protect the terrorists within their borders, we will demand full cooperation. If we don't get it, they're standing in our way, and we'll knock them down on our way to the terrorists.

Any questions, bullet?

------------------
- Achtung Bubba

September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain

"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 09-15-2001).]

 

[DoctorGonzo]

Through the CIA (and its international counterparts), the FBI, and our artillary of highly accurate artillery, we can focus with pinpoint accuracy on those terrorists in the U.S., the U.K., and our other allies that actively fight terrorism.

Tell me then, why hasn't this worked for Israel, considering they have shown a willingness to go to any lengths to stop terrorism?

 

[The_Sweetest_Thing]

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Through the CIA (and its international counterparts), the FBI, and our artillary of highly accurate artillery, we can focus with pinpoint accuracy on those terrorists in the U.S., the U.K., and our other allies that actively fight terrorism.

For those countries that go out of the way to protect the terrorists within their borders, we will demand full cooperation. If we don't get it, they're standing in our way, and we'll knock them down on our way to the terrorists.

Mmmmmm...are u promoting war? Every counrty actively tries to dissuade terrorits, and make them suffer. I don't think counrties actively go out of their way to hide them. However, why puish millions for the few stupid ppl that do? Why punish an entire country b/c of the stupidy of a select few individuals?

 

[achtung__baby]

If Bin Laden is killed his 2000 remaining fanatics will retaliate

But if thousands of innocent citizens are killed in attacks by Bush then entire governments will retaliate

Just hope we all get through this safely

----------------------------------------
It's already gone to far
Who said that if you go in too hard
You wont get hurt
----------------------------------------

*Big hug to all of you - especially in NY*

 

[Foxxern]

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Through the CIA (and its international counterparts), the FBI, and our artillary of highly accurate artillery, we can focus with pinpoint accuracy on those terrorists in the U.S., the U.K., and our other allies that actively fight terrorism.

The thing is, having a "highly accurate" weapon only helps you if you happen to know exactly where your target is. If the CIA had been able to find the exact location of Osama bin Laden, they would have taken him into custody long ago. Most Americans tend to underestimate the resources these terrorist groups have, and as a result it can be harder than we think to locate the terrorists.

If, in fact, we determine that Osama bin Laden is guilty, and if we determine that he is residing in Afghanistan, then we will have to enter their country to arrest him and anyone else who may be needed. We will only need to start thinking about warring with Afghanistan or any other country only if, and I repeat if they impede our investigations. If they are purposely trying to help him evade our laws, then we may have to use force. But the simple possibility that he might be hiding in Afghanistan does not mean that we have to launch an attack on their country.



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Change is the only constant

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Originally posted by The_Sweetest_Thing:

Mmmmmm...are u promoting war? Every counrty actively tries to dissuade terrorits, and make them suffer. I don't think counrties actively go out of their way to hide them. However, why puish millions for the few stupid ppl that do? Why punish an entire country b/c of the stupidy of a select few individuals?

Given Tuesday's actions, war is the only recourse. I'm not promoting war, but I recognize its necessity, I recognize that it will succeed only if it is a whole-hearted effort, and I will support the decision.

And you don't think countries actively promote terrorism?

You are blind to the realities of the world.



------------------
- Achtung Bubba

September, streets capsizing,
Spilling over, down the drain

"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By God, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy...bastards by the bushel."
from the film Patton

 

[The Wanderer]

hmmm...

still no attacks going on

oh, and there's a huge difference between terrorists residing in a country, and the actual Government/Rulers of a country supporting them; practically every country on earth has terrorists within its borders, Afghanistan not only has terrorists, but its Taliban rulers support them

don't worry folks, Bush is taking his time, gaining world wide support, tracking down terrorists and/or suspected terrorists as we speak, and still everyone talks of these attacks Bush has rushed to make

still no attacks... la di fucking da (to quote someone that summed things up nicely)

 

[bonoman]

Originally posted by The_Sweetest_Thing:

Mmmmmm...are u promoting war? Every counrty actively tries to dissuade terrorits, and make them suffer. I don't think counrties actively go out of their way to hide them. However, why puish millions for the few stupid ppl that do? Why punish an entire country b/c of the stupidy of a select few individuals?

Are you kidding me. There are countries that support terrorism and finace them such as:
Iraq
Iran
Pakistan
Syria
Lybia
Lebenon
Palestine
Isreal
Aphganastan

these are teh countries that need to be dealt with,

------------------
Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono

 

[DoctorGonzo]

Anyone who thinks invading nations will stop terrorism is either delusional or unwilling to accept the facts of the sitation.

It has never worked, the very nature of these organizations ensure it will never work and it is likely to provoke more people into attacking us.

 

[DoctorGonzo]

these are teh countries that need to be dealt with,

you forgot:

The United States Of America

Whoops...most people are forgetting who financed and trained Osama Bin Laden. We better start looking at what we are doing if we want this to stop.

 

[MSU2mike]

Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
Anyone who thinks invading nations will stop terrorism is either delusional or unwilling to accept the facts of the sitation.

It has never worked, the very nature of these organizations ensure it will never work and it is likely to provoke more people into attacking us.

And you're delusional if you think they need any more provocation than they already have. The very nature of these groups is also that they are madmen. They no longer need provocation.

It hasn't worked because it hasn't ever been attempted on a large scale. But lets all live in peace, love, and harmony. Let's reason with these people. Let's change everything we do in order to appease them.

That's fine until they blow up the building your parents are in. Or your kids. Or your wife. Or you.

 

[DoctorGonzo]

It hasn't worked because it hasn't ever been attempted on a large scale.

See: West Bank and Gaza Strip + 4th largest millitary in the world.

But lets all live in peace, love, and harmony. Let's reason with these people. Let's change everything we do in order to appease them.

No, I'm saying we are doing some things wrong and we should stop doing them. Funding Israel is a mistake. It will not fix things, but it will improve them.

 

[achtung__baby]

Originally posted by bonoman:

these are the countries that need to be dealt with.

But you've got to remember that the citizens of these countries had nothing to do with the terrible tragedy this week.

Just like the victims this week had nothing to do with suppresion and murder of the Palestinians in Israel which seems to have provoked this unbelievable terrorism.

But the terrorist are the minority.

I want to see justice too but the point is - why should more innocent people die.

I just hope the people responsible get what they deserve - and that no more lives are lost from any community around the world.

[This message has been edited by Bonoforever (edited 09-15-2001).]

 

[MSU2mike]

Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
No, I'm saying we are doing some things wrong and we should stop doing them. Funding Israel is a mistake. It will not fix things, but it will improve them.

I'm torn enough on this that I definitely won't say you're wrong. This is something I've talked with a lot of people about lately, and I'm glad I don't have to make any decisions. Of course we won't, but I would agree that it's something to consider.

 

[BabyGrace]

I thought Afghanistan had declared war on us?
people, please slow down

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but for the grace of love I'd will the meaning of heaven from above...

 

[speedracer]

Originally posted by Bonoforever:


I want to see justice too but the point is - why should more innocent people die.

I just hope the people responsible get what they deserve - and that no more lives are lost from any community around the world.

[This message has been edited by Bonoforever (edited 09-15-2001).]

If we have to kill 20,000 Afghanistani or Iraqi citizens in order to save 40,000 Americans from terrorists, is it worth it? I think it is. (I'm making up numbers here.)

Nobody here is going to enjoy killing these innocent civilians, but it may be necessary.

 

[speedracer]

Originally posted by BabyGrace:
I thought Afghanistan had declared war on us?
people, please slow down

I'm pretty sure we're not officialy at war against Afghanistan (unless an announcement has been made in the last hour?) but we are definitely not on diplomatic terms with the Taliban (the de facto rulers of Afghanistan--this is essentially military rule, as they don't have a firm government in place).

 

[The_Sweetest_Thing]

I'm w/ Doctor Gonzo here. Blowing up an entire counrty, even one that supports terrorists, is NOT the solution here. Blowing up Afganistan may may sense now, but what? You don't think the terrorists in Isreal, Lybia, Syria will live? Despite the number of people you kill, avenge, terrorists will still exist. W
hat do you prove? That America is big, and bold, and strong? We already know that.
Killing thousands of innocents does not prove a point. Terrorists WILL live, will continue to attack...despite age, generation, geographic location, funding, gender, will, fear, motive, etc.

--------------
*Savagery only begats savagery*

 

[speedracer]

Sweetest_Thing,

I think you (and perhaps Bonoforever) are a bit confused as to why some of us support military action. (DoctorGonzo appears to oppose military action for a different reason--his thesis, as best I can tell, is that terrorists are just too slippery and elusive to nail down.)

If I were in charge, I wouldn't bomb Afghanistan/Iraq/whomever in an act of revenge/macho posturing/etc. as you seem to suggest.

I'd bomb them if we were able to scope out terrorist strongholds/bases/etc. in those nations. Obviously, more precise methods (surgical strikes, sending ground troops and specialists to infiltrate these areas) are preferable to carpet-bombing, but you have to do what you have to do.

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 09-15-2001).]

 

[Marko]

Well I don't know what to say to some of the things that I read on this thread! Some of you people are realy unprincipal and two-faced.
Do you think that killing 20.000 inocent civilians in afghanistan will solve anything? First of all it would just make you the same as them! You would even be wors!!!! Talking about double standard. You think that afghani life is not as worth as an anerican one?
Second: you say that they are madman, but why are they madman? somebody made them madman, and in a lot of cases you, the US, made them madman - bin laden for one.
Why don't you TRY to look a tthings with reason and logic? They were put in this situation and under this preassure, and some of them that had something painfull and sick in their lifes become madman as we know them now. And what would further killing of these people do? You can be sure that there would be more dead americans, and that there wouldn't be anymore terorists, but people and nations that will openly go to war with america! And you should be scared, b/c they have totaly different aproach to life than you, and they will fight on your soil while you kill their people on theirs. Try to thing for once, and understand that they don't hate you b/c you have more money, but b/c you did something to them in the past... Do you think that IRA are only madman, and that they kill people for no reason at all? They don't have a just reason to kill anyone, but still they are moved by the reason which we all know.
And I'll have no respect for you if you go on promoting the killing civilians, then you are the prototype of the madman that you go on talking about

so much for now

 

[The_Sweetest_Thing]

Originally posted by speedracer:
Sweetest_Thing,

I think you (and perhaps Bonoforever) are a bit confused as to why some of us support military action. (DoctorGonzo appears to oppose military action for a different reason--his thesis, as best I can tell, is that terrorists are just too slippery and elusive to nail down.)

If I were in charge, I wouldn't bomb Afghanistan/Iraq/whomever in an act of revenge/macho posturing/etc. as you seem to suggest.

I'd bomb them if we were able to scope out terrorist strongholds/bases/etc. in those nations. Obviously, more precise methods (surgical strikes, sending ground troops and specialists to infiltrate these areas) are preferable to carpet-bombing, but you have to do what you have to do.

You had me pegged up until the very last line of your moving little essay here. "You do what you have to do." I wholeheartly agree with bombing oif we could scope out terrorist bases...but why guess? Why convict without a trial, per se? If we don't know for sure that Bin Laden is hiding here or there...that this or that grp of terrorists is in charge, why punish an entire nation on speculation? We don't HAVE to do anything just yet. Why not wait until we know?

 

[BabyGrace]

nm my earlier question.

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but for the grace of love I'd will the meaning of heaven from above...

 

[Marko]

Babygrace:
No they didn't. their spokeperson said that theye were expecting the atack from the US, and he was telling his people that they should stand strong, and that they will respond to any atack on them... and so on, something like Bush is telling you these days

 

[DoctorGonzo]

I thought Afghanistan had declared war on us?

Nope.

They are doing everything they can to avoid a war. However, they are calling for a holy war against the U.S if we attack them.

Congress has passed a use of force bill, which authorizes the president to use any means to fight these terrorists. While good in principle, the sheer scope of that proclimation is troubling, to say the least.

(See: Gulf Of Tonkin Resolution)

As I and others have pointed out, this war will not be confined to any one nation. If we enter Afganastan, there is nothing to stop us from going after Iraq, Syria, Iran, etc. By granting such power to the president, the legistlative branch has given his adminstration a free hand to prosecute this war wherever it decides to without further authorization. This can continue to escalate without any of the natural checks and balances kicking in.

The need to approve a declaration of war against each nation we wish to attack ensures the natural pauses icorporated into our legal system have a chance to work. Instead of letting go of the reigns less than a week after the attack, a requirement to pass a declaration of war prior to any millitary assault ensures that people stop and think about what we are doing after cooler heads have prevailed. Right now, we are in a collective state of shock, the country is angry, and this is the absolute worst time to write a political blank check for any wars the Bush administration may decide to start in the future.

If we need to attack a country in the future, it should go to Congress. That is the way it is designed to work. So we can evaluate what is going on before we find ourselves involved in a Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos like catastrophe with no end in sight.

[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 09-15-2001).]

 

[curehp]

bombing afghanistan would not accomplish anything other than killing innocent people and losing the support of other nations and I believe that the U.S. knows this and has hinted that they are trying to get concrete info as to who is responsible and where they are located so we can send in ground troups to destroy them. That's why Bush and co. are asking for the support of other mideast nations, so they can have a much easier time finding these people and avoid killing lots of innocent people in the process, and that's why I believe many of these nations will cooperate. Afghanistan cannot cooperate because they are broke and the Taliban supports bin laden because he has the wealth to support them in return. Also, many citizens in afghanistan don't support the taliban. They never did, it's a rogue organization that was organized enough to take charge after Russia decimated the nation. If the U.S. did bomb them, we would kill lots of dirt poor, innocent people and and it would amount to nothing. There is nothing left there to destroy after the wars that nation has been through. This will be a patient, well thought out retaliatory campaign. What we habe to worry about is the possibility of further attacks in the U.S.