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Old 06-20-2004, 12:37 PM   #1
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u2 bOOTS being sold on e-bay

How do you guys feel about some of the U2 bootlegs being sold on e-bay instead of people flat out trading them. If you saw someone post a bootleg, would you report them? Just curious what everyone's take it on soliciting boots instead of trading them.
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Old 06-20-2004, 06:32 PM   #2
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I think it's wrong to sell them, period. I don't have many bootlegs at all, but the ones I've are all from trading or just copied as a favor. I don't know much about bootlegs, but it seems to me no one should be making a profit off of U2 stuff, except for U2 themselves and I have a hard time believing they sit around selling their stuff on Ebay.
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Old 06-20-2004, 10:36 PM   #3
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before i was into trading and finding them available on the internet, i did buy some, i will admitt it but now i dont at all. i only trade.
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Old 06-20-2004, 10:37 PM   #4
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I'm totally opposed to the practice of selling bootlegs. Essentially, I'm of the opinion of how dare someone receive money that should legitimately go to U2. If you're making a profit off bootlegs, you should be ashamed of yourself.
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Old 06-21-2004, 09:29 AM   #5
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I'm opposed because U2 opposes. They have generously told us that they don't care if we SHARE boots, and they are honored we want their music that much, but if they get sold, they will find where you park your car! That may not be word for word, but that's the basic content of their comment on the subject.
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Old 06-21-2004, 12:01 PM   #6
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Ok this is my feeling on it I think going and selling cdrs that are mp3 or you got for free is wrong but some of the factory pressed boots if you think about it we prob wouldnt have some of the awesome shows we did if it wasnt for them Now im not condoning charging 50 bucks for a boot as I payed for the boston 6/6/2001 show about a week or so after the show but I learned since then.

Basically Its wrong but there is positive along with the negative but selling cdrs you got for free or something I got a big problem with that but I still collect the factory pressed bootlegs.
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Old 06-24-2004, 11:19 AM   #7
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Positives(?) of selling

1- Rare shows may emerge for sale but later are "liberated" for trade whereas they were unavailable before. Even a jerk taper who wants to profit off their recording is still adding a recording to the overall pool. If you got rid of tapers who sell their shows you'd be losing shows that eventually circulate. They still in the end create something useful out of something bad.

2- As quickly as they can sell the show someone can buy 1 copy, torrent it, and kill the demand for it.

3-It give newbies an opportunity to get something they would otherwise NOT have the opportunity to get. (ie they have no trade material, burner, time, etc) Lot of the time the first time buyers are unaware that there's even a niche for this stuff or that it exists!

4- Lets face it its better than selling copies of liscenced material. That's TRULY ripping off the band as those recordings CAN be purchased and give money to the band. Live bootlegs by nature are stuff that ISN'T available for sale. If the band isn't releasing live recordings like the Pixies or PJ then there will be a black market for this stuff.

5- Selling truly reflects demand for a show. People will only BUY a show if they "can't" find it elsewhere ort don't know how or if a show is desirable. If it starts bids at $1 and ends at $30 is it the sellers fault or the buyer's fault? Personally I've be tempted to buy Smiths dvd's if I could get them at a reasonable rate (like $5-8). If sellers sold at a cheaper rate ($5 a dvd vs $20) would people complain?


Negatives:

1- Obviously no one SHOULD be selling bootlegs. Its the most obvious rule the trading community has. You really can't argue that its somehow okay to do. The band has said its okay to share but NOT to sell, so don't. Your giving the finger to U2 if you do sell.

2-Too often what the seller WILL get will be a show that was easily available to download, be possibly mp3 sources or TAO, and possibly a horrible sounding recording hyped as a good one.

3-If they have the ethics to sell they just may have ethics not to even send the show. Worst thing is a seller who won't even DELIVER!

4-I've noticed several U2 traders that have "selling rules" and a few traders who were former sellers. Its quite unfortunate that these guys are allowed to even host their websites. If the record label, webhosts, ebay, fans, or traders allow them to stay in business (even after possible multiple attempts to shut them down) then where's the hope of it ever changing? If the record label dosen't care or prosecute than its hopeless battle. If fans look the other way at a prominent seller just becuase they have a big collection then they are part of the problem as well.

5- Often shows are sold BY second-hand parties. Imagine if you were the taper of a show, traded it, and it ended up on ebay. That's a big reason why many tapers DON'T share with the masses. Thus selling in these cases has REDUCED the amount of future recordings to surface from a particular source. STG and hubs also INCREASE the possiblity of selling by making it easy to get shows for free! As soon as it shows up on STG then it often shows up on ebay!

6- Silver-pressed cd's are often made BY criminal organizations. I remember KTS and the "glory days" or bootlegs but really these guys who mass produce silver cd's are the ones REALLY making the mass profits. You don't want your money going to the mob just because they are better organized!

Weaknesses of trading:
1- B+P's by nature (1 for 1) don't reward the copier. They are a great way to give charity to the fanbase but really are a pretty rare occurance. They pay for costs but give no extra benefits or "profit". Is it "ethical" to ask for extra blanks.... is that profiting? Some people will argue that it is, some say its okay. Its certainly a grey area and therefore many won't help because it not worth their while.

2. Trading and taping by nature is money going out the door. Burners, equiptment, blanks, cases, ink, binders, shipping, all cost money. By nature there is no money coming in. Not defending selling to recoup costs, just saying its a rather crappy "business" model.

Sorry if I over-elaborated a simple argument. Selling still sucks!
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Old 06-24-2004, 04:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by outofcontrol


Weaknesses of trading:
1- B+P's by nature (1 for 1) don't reward the copier. They are a great way to give charity to the fanbase but really are a pretty rare occurance. They pay for costs but give no extra benefits or "profit". Is it "ethical" to ask for extra blanks.... is that profiting? Some people will argue that it is, some say its okay. Its certainly a grey area and therefore many won't help because it not worth their while.
I realize you're offering all the difference perspectives (thanks!) and not claiming this as your personal opinion, but I have a few reactions to the above..... First of all, I think there's a definite difference between charging someone for services and the receiver offering. I have a friend here on Interference who has in the past sent me many VHS boots. I would often send her some cash for tapes and shipping and let her keep the rest as my thank you for copying the tapes and mailing them out. But she never charged me for anything. I don't think the band would see any problem with offering some compensation to B&P-ers. Second, as far as the ethics of B&P, I think at this point in time, there are enough generous fans out there where everyone has access to B&P services (I disagree that it's a "rare" occurance). Though you're right, there is no direct reward for the copier, there's still tons of people doing it. I think for some people it may even be a hobby, in which case there are rewards. I've made a few mixes for people in the past and paid for the discs and shipping out of my own pocket and I don't feel like I've been cheated at all. People have done the same for me in the past and when I think of how exciting it was for me then, the least I can do is burn a young newbie fan a few discs.
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Old 06-24-2004, 09:22 PM   #9
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I have sold and bought boots. I know... the horror...

However, I have only sold boots for cost. Many sellers are not nearly as honest or inclusive as I am. For example, I have bought more than my share of CD-R's or DVD-R's that weren't advertised as such. Most didn't even come with artwork - some not even in a jewel case! In contrast, I always inform people that this will be a CD-R or DVD-R, and I always include a proper case and good artwork. I feel the boot isn't right if it doesn't include these items. And I only sell for my expenses - that is, just to cover the cost of the CD/DVD (which are far cheaper now than they were years ago), the case, the artwork, and shipping. This, again, contrasts many sellers who charge exorbitant rates for the bare minimum.

But why sell at all? Well, it's the same reason I buy - because often times this is the only way to get something. Many people claim they like to trade - and I have done more than my share of trading. However, most traders only will trade for something they don't have. Well, if you are just starting out, what do you have to trade? And the few things you do have, the trader already has - so you have nothing to offer. As such, the trader won't trade. Or perhaps you do have something, but it's a CD made from .mp3's or it's a slightly inferior CD's, which the trader refuses to accept. Again, you have nothing to offer. So how do you get something? You have to buy. I sell because I figure I'm offering a far nicer product at COST only. I'm not making a profit. As such, I'm offering people a chance to get things without spending tons of money.

Now, I haven't sold anything in a while because it takes a lot of my time to get everything ready (that is, I'm not just popping out CD's or DVD's by the dozen - I'm actually preparing each one separately, with a case and artwork). But this brings me to another point - trading time. I try to work fast, but I've had some traders move at ridiculously slow paces - so slow that I've actually forgotten all about the trade.

Also, some traders like to "change the deal" at the last moment. For example, I offered a trade once and had it all set up - the person was sending me several of her items to copy and I was to copy some of mine and send everything back. Instead, this person sent far more items - things I didn't ask for - and in return she asked for the sun, moon and stars from me. And, of course, this was all to be at my expense. It didn't really matter that I didn't really want the items she sent. And when I mentioned how I thought the trade was a bit unfair (as I also had to pay to ship all of these items back to her, didn't want some of her items, and had to pay for all the CD's out of my own pocket - which were more expensive at the time), she became irate stating that she "sent me all this stuff" and that the trade was fair. I honored this "changed" trade, but I never traded with her again.

So while trading sounds great in theory, I fully understand why people have no choice but to buy. And to buy, one needs sellers. I wish we could all trade in this great universe, in a nice timely manner, but it doesn't happen.

By the way, I like to add that I have thrown in things for free to people who do buy the few items I sell - or have provided extras. Again, this is just to give something extra to my fellow fans. I have also been more than willing to swap .mp3's via e-mail (as trading through p2p programs has now become virtually impossible to do).
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Old 06-24-2004, 10:22 PM   #10
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Originally posted by u2ulysses
I have sold and bought boots. I know... the horror...

But why sell at all? Well, it's the same reason I buy - because often times this is the only way to get something. Many people claim they like to trade - and I have done more than my share of trading. However, most traders only will trade for something they don't have. Well, if you are just starting out, what do you have to trade? And the few things you do have, the trader already has - so you have nothing to offer. As such, the trader won't trade. Or perhaps you do have something, but it's a CD made from .mp3's or it's a slightly inferior CD's, which the trader refuses to accept. Again, you have nothing to offer. So how do you get something? You have to buy. I sell because I figure I'm offering a far nicer product at COST only. I'm not making a profit. As such, I'm offering people a chance to get things without spending tons of money.

Now, I haven't sold anything in a while because it takes a lot of my time to get everything ready (that is, I'm not just popping out CD's or DVD's by the dozen - I'm actually preparing each one separately, with a case and artwork). But this brings me to another point - trading time. I try to work fast, but I've had some traders move at ridiculously slow paces - so slow that I've actually forgotten all about the trade.

Also, some traders like to "change the deal" at the last moment. For example, I offered a trade once and had it all set up - the person was sending me several of her items to copy and I was to copy some of mine and send everything back. Instead, this person sent far more items - things I didn't ask for - and in return she asked for the sun, moon and stars from me. And, of course, this was all to be at my expense. It didn't really matter that I didn't really want the items she sent. And when I mentioned how I thought the trade was a bit unfair (as I also had to pay to ship all of these items back to her, didn't want some of her items, and had to pay for all the CD's out of my own pocket - which were more expensive at the time), she became irate stating that she "sent me all this stuff" and that the trade was fair. I honored this "changed" trade, but I never traded with her again.

So while trading sounds great in theory, I fully understand why people have no choice but to buy. And to buy, one needs sellers. I wish we could all trade in this great universe, in a nice timely manner, but it doesn't happen.

So let me get this straight. You sell to provide a service for those with nothing and you make no profit? Why not just do a B and P instead? There is no question then and you are providing the same service. Just curious, what did you charge when you were selling? Under $5? Because that is the most it costs for blanks and postage even if you are doing DVDR's. Under that circumstance its really almost a B and P, so thats not quite so bad.

I have been in the U2 trading community since the late 80's. Sure, there are some problems with some traders. Its bound to happen. But to insinuate that there is some type of huge problem with bad traders in this community or that the examples you give are common place is just flat out false. You want bad traders go check out the Radiohead community. U2 fans on the whole are very generous when it comes to this stuff. Personally I have never solicited a B and P. But, if someone posted looking for a particular show and I had it I typically try to set up a trade and if they dont have something I want I will do a B and P for them. From what I have seen is that MOST U2 traders are at least willing to do this as long as its a couple of shows and the person doesnt start demanding 15 shows (most people are smart enough to not do this though). Bottom line is it takes a little effort on the person seeking the material. A concept that is difficult for some. But if you want a show you can get it without having to resort to purchasing anything other than blanks. So I respectfully disagree with most of your post.

The band themselves have basically indicated they dont want the bootlegs sold but dont mind trading. I think that pretty much says it all.
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Old 06-24-2004, 11:03 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blue Room


So let me get this straight. You sell to provide a service for those with nothing and you make no profit? Why not just do a B and P instead? There is no question then and you are providing the same service. Just curious, what did you charge when you were selling? Under $5? Because that is the most it costs for blanks and postage even if you are doing DVDR's. Under that circumstance its really almost a B and P, so thats not quite so bad.

I have been in the U2 trading community since the late 80's. Sure, there are some problems with some traders. Its bound to happen. But to insinuate that there is some type of huge problem with bad traders in this community or that the examples you give are common place is just flat out false. You want bad traders go check out the Radiohead community. U2 fans on the whole are very generous when it comes to this stuff. Personally I have never solicited a B and P. But, if someone posted looking for a particular show and I had it I typically try to set up a trade and if they dont have something I want I will do a B and P for them. From what I have seen is that MOST U2 traders are at least willing to do this as long as its a couple of shows and the person doesnt start demanding 15 shows (most people are smart enough to not do this though). Bottom line is it takes a little effort on the person seeking the material. A concept that is difficult for some. But if you want a show you can get it without having to resort to purchasing anything other than blanks. So I respectfully disagree with most of your post.

The band themselves have basically indicated they dont want the bootlegs sold but dont mind trading. I think that pretty much says it all.
And I've been trading/buying/selling for almost as long, and I will respectfully disagree with most of your post.

I've had some great trades and this is indeed the way to go. I am not so demanding that I will refuse anything other than $5 CD-R's or that songs be "pure" and not .mp3's. Provided the person knows how to burn properly (and these days, there's just no excuse for that - but years ago there were), my ears can't tell the difference between .mp3's and CD's.

Regarding CD's, I don't bother selling those any more. I'm talking years ago - not yesterday. If someone wants a CD now, it's no problem for me to make a copy. That does take mere minutes and CD's are so cheap that the only possible worry is postage. And even then, that's usually inexpensive.

What I do sell now are DVD's. These are getting cheaper and cheaper too and soon I will be swapping these as readily as CD's. In fact, I'm trying to set-up more video trades. But for the time being, I had to buy these videos as no one else had them or was offering them. And sometimes people sold them at high prices - far more than they were worth. I sell everything only for cost (and with shipping, that's usually under $10 - the price continues to drop because of costs descreasing, with, again, shipping usually being the main expense).

So in essence, I guess I am doing a B+P. But see, I don't mass produce or mass trade. I do so very selectively as I simply don't have the time to do this. Hence when I offer, I try my best to keep things cheap. Sometimes I wait until a person has a little collection and then trade. But this is only for DVD's now. In the future, as technology gets better, DVD trading will be just as easy and readily available to everyone as CD trading.

However, from my years of trading/selling/buying, I have not found U2 fans to be any where near as generous as some of you claim. That's just my experience and I have been doing this for 15 years. Some are great, most are not.


Oh, and as for U2's opinion here.... this is their music and I fully respect their decision. But, it's tough for me to listen to them on this aspect. If U2 released MORE live material, we fans wouldn't be forced to trade, swap, buy and sell. For a band renowned for their live performances, U2 have released VERY little live recordings. I would much rather buy official live material and let U2 have the money than give it to some "mafia-organized" bootlegger or some inscrupulous U2 fan who is capitalizing on his fellow fans. But U2's desire for "perfection" has left fans with little choice but to bootleg. And again, getting a boot isn't always as easy as you make it seem - at least when I first started. But I will acqueisce - that was years ago. These days, I think getting boots from trades or B+P is FAR easier.
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Old 06-25-2004, 12:33 AM   #12
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Well, I never said it was always easy. What I said is you may have to put forth some effort to get something you want. Its a concept alot of people on the internet dont understand. I started back in the day when there wasnt an internet to search this stuff out and everything was done on tape. I amassed about 300 shows on tape in about 2 years. It took some effort searching out trading, actually talking on the phone with some, and mailing lists out waiting for responses. Why it would be more difficult now with the information and access almost instant and the quickness and ease of the media being used now doesnt make alot of sense. Again, I think "some" people just expect to have it handed to them or they think they should just be able to download whatever they want, now, for nothing. So they dont want to put forth an effort to get something they cant get instantly. That has been my experience lately when it comes to problems, demanding people, who dont want to have to do anything to get what they want.

I guess my question regarding your trading problems is where did you look to trade? Who were you emailing where you were getting all these problems?? Because this massive problem you indicate with the U2 traders is news to me.

Also, you can get a DVDR 50 pack for $100 of good name brands at Best Buy. So thats $2 a DVDR, add in $2 for shipping (at the most if its domestic) and $1 for a padded envelope. Shouldn't cost over $5 still.

Going to what the band says. I agree, they should release more. But they endorse (unofficially) trading of their live shows. So they dont mind the sharing. However, they dont like selling of any kind. So I dont get what your point is. U2 have said trade away, just dont sell.
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Old 06-25-2004, 02:24 AM   #13
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I've seen the Rattle and Hum outtakes on DVD for a large sum of money on eBay, but for like 50 dollars and that ruined it for me.

I've, in the past, purchased a few bootleg concerts on DVD that were reasonably priced and came with jewel cases, art work and even had interactive menus and played in various DVD players..

Then there was the time I got a show on DVD that was just a CD-Ror whatever, no writing on it and had no artwork, came in a paper sleeve and that was it... It played in my PS2 but not in our regular DVD player. That taught me a lesson.
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Old 06-25-2004, 03:27 AM   #14
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Hell, here's a guy who pretty much makes his living selling boots (for what I would call reasonably exhorbitant prices):

http://www.u2liveinconcert.com

I only wish there was a way to make the band aware of that site.
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Old 06-25-2004, 04:31 AM   #15
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I guess my question regarding your trading problems is where did you look to trade? Who were you emailing where you were getting all these problems?? Because this massive problem you indicate with the U2 traders is news to me.
Indeed. Starting to trade isn't that hard to do even if you don't have much to trade. But you have to know with whom to trade. Hooking up with a person who has 500+ U2 shows is not going to work as he/she will probably have everything you have. Instead, focus more on the smaller traders and others who have just started. Even if you have few recordings, chances are that the other starter doesn't have those and that the few recordings he/she has are not in your posession. So you can trade! Both get something they don't have and so your collection grows.
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Old 06-25-2004, 10:19 AM   #16
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Again, I disagree that it's hard to get lots of/good stuff. There's so many people with hundreds of shows willing to B&P as many discs as you want. If you're not concerned with file type/sources of audio boots, you could always do what bono_man did and send in an 80G HDD and get EVERYTHING!
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Old 06-25-2004, 12:28 PM   #17
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Some good responses here. Even if I don't agree with the seller's views at least he expressed himself and gave us a different perspective. The positive thing about p2p is it gives the newbie a chance to get started with something wheras they had to rely on b+p, buying, or generous friends to get started before.

Also dvd bootlegs are where cd bootlegs were 5 years ago when few people had them, burners were just becoming affordable, and prices were more expensive. But even dvd prices are falling so quick that even $1 a dvd blank is rather the AVERAGE most people will pay. Charging $20 for a dvd when it costs $1 in raw materials is flat out greed. Cd prices actually have gone up recently (remember all the free after rebate deals last year?) but 20 cents a piece on a spindle of 50 or 100 is still a great deal.

So its up to the fans whether they want to pay or not. Personally its much easier to make the efforts than to keep a seller in business but that is ultimately up to the fans to make the choice. I'm angry at the people who regularly sell but not neccesarily the fans who choose to buy.
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