The Bomb That Could Have Been

[Zoots]

Okay, time to listen to that Yahweh alternate version again.

 

[U2girl]

Except for Yahweh, the "Alt" versions are unfocused, 1/2 assed sketches.

Exactly.

1. Vertigo is more finished.

2. Sometimes: Please. The album version walks all over the outtake. I prefer the lyrics (and the build up to the "sing" line is far better on the album, plus one of their most beautiful choruses ever IMO) and ESPECIALLY the music: instead of a syrupy piano-ish outtake we got a proper rock ballad.

3. All because of you: the album version feels a lot more finished.

4. Yahweh: prefer the soaring album version over the outtake.

5. Fast cars: while Xanax and Wine would feel like just another guitar-y song, Fast cars is more interesting with the acoustic guitar that gives it a more Arabic/Middle eastern feel.

 

[Sleep Over Jack]

I just head the alternate Sometimes. It's just as shit as the album one.

But now I'm listening to Xanax again. I REALLY fucking like this song. Damn shame. Stupid fucking Larry or whichever monkey it was who convinced them to make a tacky pop album....

I think you're sounding like a broken record..

 

[IrishDawg]

Does anyone have these songs in high quality? I have a low quality version of Native Son that makes my ears bleed when I listen to it. If anyone could post links I would be greatful

 

[Aygo]

Stop bashing HTDAAB... the album is perfect as it is...
I really think that the alternate versions are very good, but not that good... There is not coherence in those songs to make an album... And, for God's sake, the production on those songs are very very bad!!!

 

[U2Soar]

How about this?

U2: AAA
(An Alternate Atomic)

1. Native Son (Alternate version of Vertigo)
2. Crumbs From Your Table (HQ version)
3. Sometimes (Alternate version or HQ acoustic version?)
4. Xanax And Wine (Alternate version of Fast Cars)
5. All Because Of You (Alternate version)
6. Electrical Storm (Band version)
7. Smile
8. Mercy
9. Love You Like Mad
10. Levitate
11. Original Of Species (Live version)
12. Yahweh (Alternate version)

Options:
Are You Gonna Wait Forever

 

[RademR]

Except for Yahweh, the "Alt" versions are unfocused, 1/2 assed sketches. Which makes sense, since the Alt Yahweh is simply a mix which almost made the album.

thank you.

Love the "Yahweh" alternate though, and I really like "Smile" and thought it should have been on there.

"Mercy" obviously but they should fix it up and put it on the next record.

Songs like "Xanax" are good but need work. Then they might deseve a spot.

What do you guys think of "Are you gonna wait forever?" Deserving?

 

[Nube Gris]

no, no, no you are all fucking wrong
HTDAAB is brilliant as it is.

 

[namkcuR]

HTDAAB is not brilliant as it is. The songs are very, very good, but Lillywhite's production was not a good thing this time around. Chris Thomas's production was better, methinks.

 

[namkcuR]

Exactly.

1. Vertigo is more finished.

What is that comment supposed to mean? It's a fluff meaningless comment dressed up to look like it means something. I agree that the guitar solo in Vertigo is more powerful and very reminiscent of the early 80s U2, but Native Son sounds damn good too, and damn sure not unfinished.

2. Sometimes: Please. The album version walks all over the outtake. I prefer the lyrics (and the build up to the "sing" line is far better on the album, plus one of their most beautiful choruses ever IMO) and ESPECIALLY the music: instead of a syrupy piano-ish outtake we got a proper rock ballad.

Stop calling it an 'outtake'. Don't you get that that was probably going to be the final version of the song before Lillywhite came in and said 'no that's not a chorus, that's the payoff of a chorus, you need something before it', to which the band responded by adidng in the falsettos. There's a separate thread about Sometimes a few threads below this one if you wish to know more in-depth my thoughts about why the alternate version is better.

3. All because of you: the album version feels a lot more finished.

See the first half of my Vertigo comments above. Both versions have their ups and downs.

4. Yahweh: prefer the soaring album version over the outtake.

And I prefer the alternate version for its more subtle, zooropa-esque, feel and atmosphere.

5. Fast cars: while Xanax and Wine would feel like just another guitar-y song, Fast cars is more interesting with the acoustic guitar that gives it a more Arabic/Middle eastern feel. [/B]

I like both equally.

 

[popacrobat]

Except for Yahweh, the "Alt" versions are unfocused, 1/2 assed sketches. Which makes sense, since the Alt Yahweh is simply a mix which almost made the album.

agreed

 

[U2girl]

What is that comment supposed to mean? It's a fluff meaningless comment dressed up to look like it means something. I agree that the guitar solo in Vertigo is more powerful and very reminiscent of the early 80s U2, but Native Son sounds damn good too, and damn sure not unfinished.

It means exactly what it says. Vertigo is a fnished song, Native son isn't - it's a sketch like MrBrau1 said.

Stop calling it an 'outtake'. Don't you get that that was probably going to be the final version of the song before Lillywhite came in and said 'no that's not a chorus, that's the payoff of a chorus, you need something before it', to which the band responded by adidng in the falsettos. There's a separate thread about Sometimes a few threads below this one if you wish to know more in-depth my thoughts about why the alternate version is better.

It would have more weight if you actually were in the studio to make such claims. You could just as well say ATYCLB and HTDAAB Itunes song were going to be on those albums.
To me, outtakes can be anything from demos to songs that didn't make the album (until different versions came along).

See the first half of my Vertigo comments above. Both versions have their ups and downs.

See also my comments above.


And I prefer the alternate version for its more subtle, zooropa-esque, feel and atmosphere.

Fair enough.

I like both equally.

I like Xanax as well.

 

[rjhbonovox]

I'm sure there were plenty of threads like these when the Complete U2 first came out, but that was a long time ago... I've been listening to the alternate versions of All Because of You and Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own, and I think they're better. In fact, I think almost all of the alternate versions are better...

1. Vertigo VS Native Son

This is a tough call, I think overall Vertigo is better but Native Son is very powerful...it's more risky, it's political, it's U2. Plus the bridge with "PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE" is amazing, they should try that live sometime since they're playing Vertigo so much.

2. Sometimes...

The alternate version is so much more mournful and personal, it seems much more like Bono's song. For example, instead of swelling during "the note", the music pulls away, and you can hear the fragility in Bono's voice. In terms of a good single, the final version is better (and I do like the falsetto chorus) but overall the alternate version, for me, is far more moving...

3. All Because of You

The alternate version has more energy, variety, better lyrics, better delivery. It's just BETTER. It's even CATCHIER.

4. Yahweh

The alternate version, again, is far superior. The bass is deeper and more prominent, the bridge is better ("Take these blue eyes...take these eyes and make them see"), the drums are better (especially at the end). Also at the end there's this powerful note that's hit twice I think on a guitar, it's hard to describe, it's an overdub and something about it just really hits me.

5. Fast Cars VS Xanax and Wine

Fast Cars is more "experimental," it's got that kinda Eastern sound... but Xanax and Wine, in my opinion, is a better song. It's catchier and more rockin' and I like the falsetto.

I would agree with most of what you say here. The earlier versions had rawness to them which they lost on the overproduced finish album. They overcooked it. People keep saying about Pop and how it was unfinished etc, no it wasn't unfinished it was raw. It was raw and edgey and great. An example of this is the brilliant intro to Last Night On Earth on the album which they did away with for the single. I love the almost fucked up way they start the song with The Edge starting the riff then stopping and then the keyboard comes in. Its music in its most exciting state not overcooked and over analysed until you lose that spontaneous excitement.

To bring it back to this thread, All Because Of You is a prime example, the original version sounded like an original song, it sounded different, then they go and fuck about with it until they get a song that sounds like a million and one other songs the main song it sounds a bit like being Desire. It just finished up being over produced and over cooked like the whole album apart from Love and Peace Or Else.

 

[financeguy]

In 20 years time will this album be remembered as a classic? In my view, no. There are some ok tracks but there's nothing outstanding in the league of One, Bad, New Year's Day.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Originally posted by U2girl It means exactly what it says. Vertigo is a fnished song, Native son isn't - it's a sketch like MrBrau1 said.

Yes, they're not finished because there wasn't a need to finish them. They were evolved/dumped/whatever and turned into what we got, that's why they were never given the finishing touches that make a song album-ready. Any assessment of these songs has to take that into consideration. It's ridiculous to score it as a point for or against though. When I say Native Son is better I'm talking about the flow of the song, the sounds of it, the story being told, the way certain parts are used, when and how they are used etc vs how Vertigo is. You have to imagine Native Son getting that final polish that it would have gotten before going onto an album, then compare it to Vertigo. I definitely think they took a very good, complete rock song in Native Son, robbed it for it's catchiest bits, and edited them together to make the gimmicky 'play us on the radio, dammit' Vertigo. I have a different feeling listening to Native Son then I do Vertigo, it's got a better spirit to it, and I prefer it.

 

[Zoots]

You have to imagine Native Son getting that final polish that it would have gotten before going onto an album, then compare it to Vertigo. I definitely think they took a very good, complete rock song in Native Son, robbed it for it's catchiest bits, and edited them together to make the gimmicky 'play us on the radio, dammit' Vertigo.

Allow me to get you a round of beers.

 

[-macphisto-]

Can somebody please send me the alt version of "Sometime you cant make it on your own" please.
macphisto23@hotmail.com

 

[Zoots]

Can somebody please send me the alt version of "Sometime you cant make it on your own" please.
macphisto23@hotmail.com

It's on it's way!

 

[ultraviolet7]

The "alt versions" are like someone said above sketches, i.e. unfinished stuff, demos. They are clearly the seeds (and no more) of some of the actual songs that made the album. They completely lack production, so in my view it doesn't make any sense to say they would have made the Bomb a "better" album since they could have never been included in the state they are (or anywhere near it). All we can say is that maybe with those bones and a different production concept MAYBE we could have a had a different (better?) album, but honestly I don't think it would have been THAT different. The core is the actual songs, and frankly I think the real problem is there. Production can make a good song great or just OK; It can make a standard song from OK to plain terrible. Personally I dislike the overall production for this album but I frankly think that the problem here is the lack of really good songs, at least in the proportion U2 used to come up with in the past for a new release.

 

[ponkine]

I frankly think that the problem here is the lack of really good songs, at least in the proportion U2 used to come up with in the past for a new release.

I 100% agree, that´s reality, sad but true

 

[Lancemc]

I 100% agree, that´s reality, sad but true

Your reality maybe. But I personally think the songs ARE there. Like many have said already, the major problem lies in the production.

I feel songs like Miracle Drug, Sometimes, Love and Peave, City of Blinding Light, Crumbs, Original of the Species, and Yahweh are all really strong songs like U2 can always make. Most of these just suffer from lack-luster production or arrangments, except Original (which I feel has an amazing studio polish).

 

[Sleep Over Jack]

I 100% agree, that´s reality, sad but true

The reality is that you are an idiot.

 

[Lancemc]

The reality is that you are an idiot.

Sorry, but I couldn't help but laugh.

 

[AtomicBono]

The reality is that you are an idiot.

genius.

The songs don't seem that unfinished to me... They don't quite have that "polish" but most of them seem pretty finished, I don't know what else you'd add to them?? More strings and synths and random shit?? They're raw and I like that. Though after much internal debate I think Vertigo IS better than Native Son... I was thinking about it, and can you imagine everyone singing along to Native Son like they do Vertigo? Hell, can you imagine U2 playing Native Son TWICE? I can't. Native Son to me just doesn't quite have "it." "It" being, as Earnie says, the gimmicky "play us on the radio, damnit" quality. But I still think every other alternate version is better, except MAYBE for Sometimes...it's a close call but I think the alternate one is more personal and I like the Zooropa-esque feel to it. Of course live Sometimes it way more powerful, but still.

All Because of You, Xanax and Wine, and Yahweh are just BETTER. Easily. No contest. I'd be interested to hear what the other Bomb songs sounded like in 2003.

 

[ultraviolet7]

The songs don't seem that unfinished to me... They don't quite have that "polish" but most of them seem pretty finished, I don't know what else you'd add to them?? More strings and synths and random shit?? They're raw and I like that.

Polish has nothing to do with "adding strings and synths and random shit" and much less with depriving songs from their raw character (otherwise you'd never get a hard rock or heavy metal album quality product) but rather with refining arrangements, sounds, mix, performance, etc. Native Son and all the others are clearly demos - they aren't album quality as they are. They perfectly could be with more work on them, but it isn't the case in the state they are presented now. Just as an example the sound quality of many of the instruments is a clear indication that the songs would have to be re-recorded if they were to make an album.

What can be argued in view of the publication of this alternate material is that a different production concept could have yielded more interesting results - or maybe not. Personally I believe there was a good song in Native Son and Vertigo, though somewhat gimmicky, became a kick ass single. Could it have been "better"? It depends on what we call better. It could have undoubtedly become a solid rock track as opposed to something more pop oriented, but then it is a question of personal taste to decide which is preferred. In any case the result could not fail to be at least good since there is a good tune at root. As for Xanax & Wine, I see a standard song. I don't think much of what it turned into as Fast Cars but a different production concept whilst it could, IMV have made a more interesting final product I doubt it could have made out of it what it isn't: a distinctive track.

Personally I find these demos interesting since they show the way the band and their producers develop ideas into the songs we get to hear on the albums.

 

[U2DMfan]

If one is not able to use the imagination of what these songs would actually turn into, once properly mixed and mastered, if not completely re-recorded, then these people are beyond help to this discussion. The argument/discussion is that Native Son among other alternate tracks was better in it's infancy because of the song itself, not the recording.

It doesn't take someone familiar with recording and studio techniques to say that these aren't album tracks as they are. All you need is a stereo and a comparative ear. All you have to do is listen to them side by side, there is a decided sound quality difference.

I think most of us with the proper perspective have already figured this into the equation and still come down on the side of HTDAAB being much better when it was much younger.

To say they are sketches is probably accurate to the extent they aren't 'full blazing, ready-to-go' album tracks, but it doesn't prove the song itself as some rough demo the band. You've heard the Achtung Baby outtakes and heard those demos, right? Those are sketches. Native Son is like Always, Beautiful Day done differently. Not as good of quality recording as BD, but it's the song done differently, that is the argument. The song!

This song as it is, is probably the Fall 2003 version of the song. This song, as the DEMO Full Metal Jacket was mentioned almost a year and half prior to that by Bono. They had already been working on this tune for quite awhile. How much of a fucking sketch is it besides the recording quality?

The music is almost exactly the same, only difference=sound quality. In fact, Native Son would be more sonically complicated than Vertigo, on the merits of the actual song by itself. All we are talking about here is a production difference.

In short, I think it's an awful easy way to expalin the songs away by calling them sketches, when they are just the song done differently. Salome is a completed track. It turned into Zoo Station.
Is it a sketch or just the song done differently? (in it's infancy).
The song is there, all the parts are there, what makes it unfinished is the fact that it was changed and not released on the album. That's the only difference, because they are different songs. If U2 went back into the studio to re-record The Joshua Tree, would those new versions be "more finished"?

Back when U2 spent 6 months in the studio these were the finished product. The only variable is the amount of time spent working on it. When does a piece of music end? Somebody famous once said art is never finished, just abandoned.

Just saying calling these songs unfinished is only relative to what there predecessors sound like on a finished, properly mixed and mastered album. If the album had come out Sping 2004, like first planned, they'd sound just as they are ONLY BETTER!

 

[bono_man2002]

The 'Chris Thomas released' album wouldnt have been exactly better, only more rockier (No, I"m not saying we would have had 11 ABOY's and Vertigos on it)
As somone mentioned earlier, it would have been the Punk rock made on venus.
HTDAAB is still a great album, no matter what planet your from.

 

[U2DMfan]

creating art, if it's music or paintings, can be refined over and over again only to acheive a perfect "take" but can lose the character of the orginal. It can in fact, remove the raw character of whatever made it special in the first place. I know I have had songs on an old 4-track, re-recorded the guitar part or vocal and never got the original vibe back.

In this case, I was trying to refine my sound, by "polishing" up my sloppiness, and what I got was a more refined unsloppy, characterless sound. It worked the other way a few times too, for sure.

A rough song demo with a nice chord progression can work nicely even with mistakes, notes that "aren't supposed to go there" only to be refined of mistakes to see the nice character diminished. I remember a line Edge used in an interview about something being "an illegal chord" that Bono played for a song.
He said it worked well, but he didnt know if he wanted to use it.
That's a small example of what I am getting at.

It's essentially what we are saying. It's the argument of over-production. Too long in the studio on a basic rock song will likely give you the most clean takes possible, probably about as perfectly conceived as could be imagined. But whatever character was in those early version could be completely sapped from it.

Earnie said it best on one of his posts, when he said U2 could write 50 of these songs in the span it took to record HTDAAB. Yet they spend so much time, on what? 15 songs. It's just not feeling confident enough, or it's trying to please all 27 people involved in the studio recording process. There is a quote from Bono in the Dave Fanning interview about this. He was saying he wishes they had sycophants around in the studio (with humor) making the point about being hard to please everyone.

Bono used to talk about waiting for something to happen in the studio, now he uses the phrase about God walking thru the room. It's just about that 'feel', that sound of a sloppy jam, that has maybe not much technique, but loads of character. The ideas are then brainstormed. But if you spend too much time refining an idea whos' genesis was all about spontaneity, you are going to end up with something different. It's not always better and not always worse, but either way it's going to be more polished.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

U2DMfan, thank you for spelling that one out for the kids.

 

[mobvok]

I think Crumbs HQ wins over the studio version simply by virtue of not having the "cool down mama" anti-hook. Having the simpler guitar carry the first verse helps, too.

Can some kind soul toss me any alternate version of HTDAAB songs they have lying around at mobvok@comcast.net?

Much obliged!